British Rifles Rule

[rio grande]

I've been shooting my newly purchased #4MKII 1952 made SMLE.  Those Brits (and Mr. James P. Lee)  sure knew what they were about.
That is the smoothest operating bolt action I've ever handled. Very quick and easy. The safety easy to work, and right there where it's needed.
And it's peep sights are very good for my eyes, anybodys really. I know my Mauser is as accurate as my .303, but my groups w/ the .303 are half the size as my m48's, and I'm certain thats because of the Brits superior sights. The ten round mag is very practical, and after polishing the strippers, my (very sturdy) stripper clips work just fine.
The two-stage military trigger on my .303 is awesome, very crisp let-off.

Now the m48 Mauser has a bank-vault like lockup,and I feel very confident when I pull that trigger, but honestly, it's much slower than the SMLE, and it's 5 round capacity is ok to hunt with, but...and those inverted barleycorn or whatever they call 'em sights, good lord, they don't do the rifle justice.
Don't even mention the Mosin=Nagant. A fun and inexpensive rifle to shoot,  but I wouldn't want to hunt with it just because of that uber-awkward safety, and the bolt manipulation is so difficult, not only do you generally have to remove the rifle from your shoulder to operate it, sometimes you need a dead-blow hammer as well.

OK, I admit, I might consider a nice M1A or Garand superior in ways to my SMLE, but I can buy 3 or 4 SMLEs, good ones, for what even a Garand would cost.
Or one SMLE and dies, and LOTS of brass, powder and primers.
And really, that smooth bolt action of the SMLE, it's almost as fast to shoot as a Garand.

try a .303, look for a shiny bore and matching # bolt.  The #1 has open sights, my preference the #4 has aperture sights.  Get the ladder-adjustable rear sight, most of the #4s have 'em.
Good Shooting, and happy new year.

[Brithunter]

Yes the Le Enfield is smooth almost as smooth as a Mannlicher in fact. Yes I do have both to compare them  the Mannlicheers are a Mdl 1892 and a 1903 Schoenauer.

   Now if you like Mausers and really like the Enfields sights. Then may I suggest you hunt down a nice P-14  whilst not quite as smooth thay are rather nice to shoot. Failing that a "US Rifle of 1917" although of course they are not in .303  .

    Finally the No4 is actually not a SMLE as that translates to :-

Short Magazine Le Enfield.

    In 1926 the designation changed to No1, No2, No3 (P-14) the No4 came along in 1939. SMLE was to tell the difference from the original Lee Mk1 the "Long Le" often called Long Tom which commenced with the Le Metford then became the Le Enfield when the rifling design was changed due to the throat errosion problems of the Metford rifling and the Cordite propellent used. The SMLE replaced the Le Mk1 and the Le carbines as it was short enough to be used for mounted troops and so made logistics much simpler.

As you correctly stated you have a No4 Mk11 which was made in 1952, however it's not a SMLE.

[Mikey]

Oh yeah!  Lots of folks appreciate the No4 MkI and the earlier No1 Mk3s for good reason - each of which you have listed.  These rifles are more than just fun, they are thoroughly functional and in a very effective caliber.  I've owned No4s for years and still hunt with them.

True whatcha say 'bout them Mausers, although I have 5.......... but I just love the 8mm.

Mosey Naggars - yep, but they can be fun and they can be very accurate. 

Now I know this may whizz off some of my mil-surp buddies but the No4 MkI is either as fast as or almost as fast as the Garand in timed off-hand accuracy matches.  The SMLEs are slick and quick and a good accurate shooter can get 10 downrange in about the same amount of time that a Garand shooter can place his 8.   The 303 Brit and the 06 used to vie for the Wimbleton cup, regularly, until they developed the 190 gn slug for the 06 that seemed to give the 06 just that much more long range accuracy. 

I rarely load up the mag on my No4 when I hunt.  Usually just two rounds in case I miss with the first.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[STUMPJMPR]

I have a No.4MK1, Several Mosin Nagants, and a couple of M48 Mausers...The enfield was a great rifle...It was a sporter though...Probably sporterized sometime back in the 50's my grandpa used to hunt with it....I find the action kinda awkward with the cock on close....The mosins are pretty rough all the way around they shoot fine...but like we all know you have to be hercules to use the safety...I did modify one to except an aftermarket mauser trigger with a safety....I did have to remake the sear in order for it to work....The yugo mausers are a good rifle all the way around....Mine were solid...Both had pitted bores.....After fire lapping one of them i was shooting pretty good groups with 180gr hornady interlocks at about 2200fps...

[Brithunter]

I find the action kinda awkward with the cock on close....

    Ahh seems that you need to learn how to use them, no not trying to be funny but they are different and require a slightly different technique, it's the Cock on Close which actually makes them fast. Remember the original Mausers were the same cock on Close and the Boer's didn't have a problem with them.

[rio grande]

Thank you Brithunter, I wondered about whether a #4 was an SMLE when I wrote that. I thought it was, well, I learned something, we should learn something new everyday. 
But of course they are very similar. I owned an SMLE once, an Ishapore w/ magazine cut off.  When I was a kid, we carried it in the woods in east Texas, plinked with it. Wish I had that one back! But I do prefer the aperture sights
I see there's lots of folks that like the Enfields... that's a good thing. Down side is ammo cost, but load your own, its not so bad.

[deltecs]

   Now if you like Mausers and really like the Enfields sights. Then may I suggest you hunt down a nice P-14  whilst not quite as smooth thay are rather nice to shoot. Failing that a "US Rifle of 1917" although of course they are not in .303  .

   

If you want a smooth action in a P14, you might try and find a Rem 720.  This was the commercial version of the Pattern Enfield action and it is smooth.  The only problem is that not very many were made and mostly in 30-06, however I was supplied one for protection purposes in 1972 by Alaska DF&G in 300 H & H.  Very rare and wished I could have bought it when actioned at a later date.  This was the last production bolt action rifle with a claw extractor and controlled feed that Remington made.  Excellent workmanship and extremely accurate.

[woodchukhntr]

I picked up a #4 Mk 2 this year.  It has a rear target sight with a variable aperture and micrometer elevation adjustment.  It may have been unissued.  As expected, it shoots better than me.

[Siskiyou]

   Now if you like Mausers and really like the Enfields sights. Then may I suggest you hunt down a nice P-14  whilst not quite as smooth thay are rather nice to shoot. Failing that a "US Rifle of 1917" although of course they are not in .303  .

   

If you want a smooth action in a P14, you might try and find a Rem 720.  This was the commercial version of the Pattern Enfield action and it is smooth.  The only problem is that not very many were made and mostly in 30-06, however I was supplied one for protection purposes in 1972 by Alaska DF&G in 300 H & H.  Very rare and wished I could have bought it when actioned at a later date.  This was the last production bolt action rifle with a claw extractor and controlled feed that Remington made.  Excellent workmanship and extremely accurate.

The Remington 720 was preceded by the Remington Model 30.  I understand that many of them were put together using left over parts from the 1917 Enfield.  I have only handled one, it belonged to a gold miner who had a remote claim and cabin in the mountains.  Even in the 60's it appeared be very strong, and heavy for a hunting rifle.  His had a Lyman receiver sight on it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_30#Production

[deltecs]

The Remington model 30 was built using many left over parts from the military production Enfields.  There also were several models of the 30.  The 30 S was the elite of these models and quite a few were built for civilian use.  In the middle of WW II, Remington redesigned and refined the 30 S into the model 720 with a slimmer and more classic style stock.  Machine marks were removed and polished resulting in a very smooth action and wonderfully balanced rifle.  Most did have the receiver site as factory produced.  I believe most of these were sold to the US Navy and then to the public right after the war.  It was every bit the rifle as the re known model 70 Winchester.  If one were to find one for sale, the price is in the thousands of dollars on the market. 

[Brithunter]

I have heard of the Remington 720 but knew nothing about them, however I have seen and handled model 30's and in fact keep asking about one. It's a 35 Remington and is in storage and needs someone to look after it properly 

[GrassLakeRon]

I had an Australian Lithgow (1943) SMLE.  Very Accurate and fun to shot.  I remember going to the range on several occasions and having all of my rounds in a 2.5 inch circle (20 rounds) using open sights.  The only problem I ever found was like most surplus rifles, it was a flavor of the month.  Next was a 1891/30 Mosin. 

Ron

[deltecs]

I have heard of the Remington 720 but knew nothing about them, however I have seen and handled model 30's and in fact keep asking about one. It's a 35 Remington and is in storage and needs someone to look after it properly 

If the guy is willing to sell it, you might consider buying it.  This is a fine weapon too and quite valuable on the market.  The .35 Remington bore is more rare than other calibers in this model though not uncommon. 

[dldyer]

I have both a No4 MKI, and an M48 mauser.  Both shoot quite accurate, shooting Remington in the No4 and S+B in the mauser.  The mauser gets the nod on piggy hunting though, as although the No4 MK I cycles  slicker and faster than the mauser, its magazine is in poor condition and not as reliable in feeding.  Anone know of new or better magazines than the original?

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

     For your No4 magazine all you need is a new or good original but make sure it's for a No4 and for the MkV11 bullet.

     This in my BSA Model E which of course is built on the P-14 action. BSA did these between 1949-1953:-









     You will notice the similar lines to the Remington Model 30.

   This is a standard Winchester P-14 of course although this one was set up and bedded for NRA Service rifle B:-





    I didn't get on with this one so I sold it on and now only have one military trim rifle and that's a Martini .303 AC11 all the others are sporting rifles.

[little pete]

I have just been given a sporterized 303, (BSA Shirley No.4 Mk.I).  I tried it at the range and found a minimum kick and a beautiful bolt action.  As my eyes are a bit older than the rifle I am putting a scope on it and will do a bit of reloading for the next time I shoot.  The blueing and stock is very good and the rifling is clear and sharp.  This model seems to have been a workhorse in WW2 but I can't find anything on how the accuracy was.  The rifle is light, and the action is smooth so I plan on keeping it as my deer gun but I am wondering what the opinion of this model of Lee Enfield is out there in the real world.  If anyone has an opinion on this rifle I would appreciate hearing it.

thanks

little pete

[Brithunter]

Hi There,

      Here in Britain right up through the 1960's there were several commercial operators who converted the Le Enfield's into sporting rifles. Parker-Hale was one, London Armoury another, they both seemed to use wood by Sile of Italy and look similar with London Armoury fitting Parker-Hale ramped fore sights. The P-H rifles had Parker-Hale Birmingham roll marked into the barrel. I have a converted No4 Mk1/2 :-





   This has the P-H foresight but not the marking on the barrel so we are not certain who did the conversion. It looks liek the P-H converted ones but then so did others by at least two other operators. The runner recoil pad hasd seen better days and made the LOP too long for me so it has been changed for a slim rubberised ribbed Vintage BSA one and I have put a new A. J. Parker TZ47 target aperture sight on it since the photo was taken. The action is drilled and tapped for P-H mounts which I have on hand and the bluing or rather Blacking is superb 

   Now little pete, the rifle sounds very nice and they are usually quite accurate. The bores can vary in size due to their manufacture under arderous condition during WW2 and the Blitz so it might be worth your while slugging it to see what is measures. I have found that in most Le Enfields that the Hornady 150 gr Spire Point shoots well but the real deal is their (Hornady's) 174 grain Round Nose which shoots very well with reloader R15 powder. I have found that it's possible to get close to a one hole group using a scope and these bullets in more than one Le Enfield. Unfortuneatly it's very difficult to get Reloader powders here at thei time adn I am almost out of both 15 & 19 powders .

[Siskiyou]

Interesting posts, and Brithunter has some nice looking rifles.

I have not loaded a lot of bullets in my Gold State Jungle Carbine but the Hornady 174 grain has been the most accurate.

[little pete]

Hello Brithunter
Well this is the third attempt to post on this day.  The others vanished into ?  Anyway, thank you for your quick and interesting response.  I have been a blk pwd shooter most of my life but found this 303 tucked away in a corner and tried it out.  Started digging for information on it and ran into the army of lee enfields out there, fascinating.  I did find out that this little rifle is a war time production BSA Shirley No.4 Mk.I  1944 that was surplused and sold onto the civilian market in the 1960s.   Even now I am confused as to what all this means if anything but when I shot at the range I found the little thing to be neat, clean, light.  The wood is sporterized and in great shape, the blueing is very good, the bore is like new and the bolt action slips as slick as grease.   I have put a good scope on her and saved the back sight which went up to 1300 just in case.  I love the trigger pull as I can pull it back and sit before shooting.  It reminds me of the touch triggers on my muzzel loaders.  The 1300 metre or yard sight caught my attention and I wonder how far and how accurate she will shoot.  I have not tried the scoped rifle yet.  The barrel floats a bit and does not seem to be bedded and has been cut down about 1 inch. Too Bad.   I shall try the two bullets you have suggested and some others I have.  I intend to build a cartridge that will shoot in both modern and blk pwd and jacketed and cast bullets.  Have to try-just built that way.  I did slug the barrel and it miked out at 307 which seems a bit different to me but I don't know enough yet to comment further.  Our range is set up to 200 yards but I have a place behind the house that I can set up for 300 and 400 once the snow goes.  I will try and get a picture out in the near future.  She is not as pretty as your but even as a plain Jane looks pretty good.
Best

little pete

[Brithunter]

Hi Little Pete,

     The NRA here hold an annual shooting meeting called the Imperial Meeting which lasts two weeks the final of which is the Queens Prize and that's shot at 1200 yards. The Imperial Meeting was started in Queend Victoria's time before they even sho at Bisley Camp, during a Kings reig it becomes the Kings prize as the prize money actually comes out of the Monarchs pocket and not the NRA's. origianlly it was shot with service rifles like the Lee Enfields and they had to be as issued.

    The fore stock of the Le Enfield is bedded at the "Draw" which is the rear of the fore stock where it meet the butt socket of the action which is why the forestocks are tight to remove. Loose bedding here will also alter or effect the trigger pressure of the No4 Mk1 as the trigger is mounted on the trigger guard and not the action like the No4 Mk1/2 and No4 Mk2. It's this different trigger mounting which is the difference between Mk's 1 & 2 on the No4's.

[auk1124]

I agree completely, Enfields just flat out Rule.  I've got a number 4 mk1* Savage with an oversized two-groove bore that you could drop a watermelon through, and the doggone thing still shoots pretty good at 100 yards.  

[S.B.]

I find the action kinda awkward with the cock on close....

    Ahh seems that you need to learn how to use them, no not trying to be funny but they are different and require a slightly different technique, it's the Cock on Close which actually makes them fast. Remember the original Mausers were the same cock on Close and the Boer's didn't have a problem with them.

I think Brownells used to sell a conversion to change when these action cocked, don't know if this is  still available or not?

[blackpowderbill]

The cock on opening conversion is for the pattern 1914 and m1917 rifles. If you are using a Lee Enfield of any model it will be a cock on closing action. I know of no practical way to convert them. I shoot Mausers and Enfields and I do believe that the different cocking methods is a non issue. When  I am shooting these rifles and concentrating on reacquiring my sight picture, the operation of the bolt is conducted without thought as to when it is cocking the striker.

[351 power]

i had that scope mount on the longbranch that i stupidly sold. it worked fine. just put some money down on a #4 mk2 today. hope it shoots as well. this is a fazerkly custom refit in1952. according to the dealer