Forend Pressure

[45carbine]

Hello
Would appreciate some advice with my first handi

The ISSUE
I am having some accuracy issues with by 45lc. It seems to shoot alright but with consistent flyers. I know that sounds irish but it will shoot consistently for the first shot then drift all over the place.
I have noticed a lot of rubbing where the forend screw and the barrel lug? touch the forend.

It appears as though the hole in the forend has been drilled to far forward and there is quite a bit of tension (tight fit) between the action and the front barrel lug when assembled.

I have pillar bedded a few bolt action rifles and followed the ring and selley's bedding recommendations in the FAQ section.

The PROPOSED fix
I am thinking of grounding out alot of wood around the front barrel lug and enlarging the screw hole while bringing it closer to the action to relieve the tension. I would then use bedding compound to form a pillar and a very tight fit loading on the barrel and lug.

QUESTIONS
Will creating a snug fit for barrel lug prevent me from getting the forend off and on, i.e. is there supposed to be play for the forend to 'slide' into place?

Is there supposed to be tension (tight fit) between the action and the barrel lug, is this important for closing the action?

Will appreciate you advice

Mike

[Foggy]

Shoot it with out the for end on see how it groups first. Then adjust the for end as need  I would use the O-ring method first

Foggy

[trotterlg]

My opinion is that zero forearm pressure is good, I would give your method a try, my bet is that the tight fit is preventing a consistant lockup.  Larry

[Cookiemann]

I posted this on McLernon's thread, down the page, about spring loading the forend.
Quote
It shoots very well with the fore-end off but not with the fore-end on.

OK, so if this is true, then why pre-load, or bed the barrel or any of that stuff.

What would happen if the action opened freely and the forend was fitted so it placed NO STRESS between the barrel and the action???  Only extreme changes in environment or the barrel heating up from lots of shooting would affect it...Right??

I don't have any Handi Rifles, so I haven't had to deal with these problems....I guess I might understand this better if I had one.  Yep, looks like I am talking myself right into the doghouse with the CFO. 

[quickdtoo]

I agree with Larry if a Handi will shoot good with no forend on it, having the forend tight can't be good, but it has to have good lockup for that to happen.

Tim

[Spanky]

Hello
Would appreciate some advice with my first handi

The ISSUE
I am having some accuracy issues with by 45lc. It seems to shoot alright but with consistent flyers. I know that sounds irish but it will shoot consistently for the first shot then drift all over the place.
I have noticed a lot of rubbing where the forend screw and the barrel lug? touch the forend.

It appears as though the hole in the forend has been drilled to far forward and there is quite a bit of tension (tight fit) between the action and the front barrel lug when assembled.

I have pillar bedded a few bolt action rifles and followed the ring and selley's bedding recommendations in the FAQ section.

The PROPOSED fix
I am thinking of grounding out alot of wood around the front barrel lug and enlarging the screw hole while bringing it closer to the action to relieve the tension. I would then use bedding compound to form a pillar and a very tight fit loading on the barrel and lug.

QUESTIONS
Will creating a snug fit for barrel lug prevent me from getting the forend off and on, i.e. is there supposed to be play for the forend to 'slide' into place?

Is there supposed to be tension (tight fit) between the action and the barrel lug, is this important for closing the action?

Will appreciate you advice

Mike

If the forearm is too tight you could take off the spacer and sand a LITTLE bit off the end of the forearm and try it until you get the proper tension. That is the most general way of adjusting the tension instead of messing with the barrel lug hole in the forearm. I have had to do this a couple of times with my Handi's and it has improved the groups drastically. I think the forearm tension plays a big part in how well these things shoot. Make sure you keep the end of the forearm flat when sanding it.


Good luck with it.


Spanky

[quickdtoo]

It's a LOT easier to sand the spacer and keep it flat and square, plus the spacer is cheap to replace compared to the forend if you bugger it up, 

Tim

[Cookiemann]

I have done as spanky suggested.  I never thought of the expense if you screw it up...but, you're right.  The spacer is much cheaper than the forend. 

I only have shotguns...so far, but I don't like them tight.  When I hit the release, I want them to drop and throw the shell.  Just my prefference.

cookie

[Spanky]

It's a LOT easier to sand the spacer and keep it flat and square, plus the spacer is cheap to replace compared to the forend if you bugger it up, 

Tim

That does make sense.
Thanks Tim.


Spanky

[Fred M]

See my forearm treatment in the FAQ. At least to my self, it has proofed to be the bast on my two Handi's. It lets you support the rifle anywhere on the forearm.

If the rifle only shoots when supported under the hinge pin then something is loose. Beside that is the poorest position of support for an accurate shot.

The hinge piece has to be well fitted against the receiver and put under some pressure, not too tight. The barrel should not fall away easy when unlatched.

Weare talking rifles here not shotguns there is a big difference. The barrel on
a shotgun can fall open and you would not miss anything at least with shot.

[Cookiemann]

OK, I understand there is a big difference between shotguns and rifles.  My question still remains.
If a rifle shoots to POA without the forend attached then why the O-ring, bedding the barrel or any of that stuff?  If you eliminate the pressure points of the forend by sanding down the spacer and contouring the barrel channel of the forend to the barrel then shouldn't it still shoot to POA with the forend attached?
The only reason, I can see, that this would not work, is if the barrel has movement when it is supported by the shooter.  Which would mean the barrel needs fitting. YES??

I agree with you Fred, it is not natural to support a Handi rifle under the hinge when shooting.  It may work fine for bench shooting, but certainly not for off hand shots.

Maybe all of these little quirks about the Handi Rifle is why I have been so reluctant to get one. 

cookie

[quickdtoo]

Floating the forend with an O-ring is an attempt to reduce any pressure on the barrel that affects barrel harmonics, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, it's a cheap and easy way to find out. I've pretty much quit using the O-ring, I reduce the pressure the forend puts on the barrel and frame by using a thinner spacer, or increase pressure by adding a shim between the spacer and forend, and use a thin pressure point near the tip of the forend, on most of mine it works very well, is easy to remove if it doesn't. Full length bedding is likely the best option, some use a conventional bedding material, some use a cushioning material like rubber strips or RTV silicone, and they work well for most that try them.

Just a note, Mic McPherson uses an O-ring in his forend bedding process in the Handi section of his book "Accurizing the Factory Rifle" if ya wanta pick that up next time you see it on a shelf.

Tim

[just bill]

The hinge piece has to be well fitted against the receiver and put under some pressure, not too tight. The barrel should not fall away easy when unlatched.

Yea that!

[45carbine]

Thanks all for your replies
The rifle does shoot better with the forend off.
The action also appears to lock up tight.

With the stock on the shots seem to "walk" left then re-adjust too far to the right. I also get shots high and low but not as consistent as the left then right pattern. Without the stock I get some minor vertical movement in shots but very little horizontal.

Thanks also for the idea of sanding the plastic bit that attaches to action. Much more precise adjustment potential than re-drilling the screw hole. It is obvious from the replys that there should be some pressure between the action and forend lug. I am understanding that the main purpose of this is to prevent the barrel seperating from the action when opened.

If I sand the plastic so the forend slides on between the plastic and forend lug would this be sufficient "pressure"?

At present it will not go on without force.

Have read Fred M's accurising tips which were a big help. I wasn't able to get on that web page yesterday. Lots of information which will take some time to digest. Am a little curious as to why the dowel was placed in the plastic and forend and then screws re-inserted? I probably misunderstood but would appreciate it if someone could explain a bit further. I will re-read the post again a few times though.


Despite a few issues this is still a sweet little rifle. Almost all my other rifles have required some tinkering to get the best accuracy out of them. Am sure once I relieve the excessive pressure I will start to see what this rifle is really capable of.

Thanks
Mike

[Fred M]

If you refer to the dowels they are glued into the wood only. The reason for that is when reinstalling the two screws they may not line up with the old holes
So you drill two new holes prepenticular to the curved hinge piece surface.

This accurizing bit has been mulched to death for some time. Accurizing the
forearm is only part of the trouble. The whole system needs to be unified.

Latch, standing breech, latch shelve, underlug, and maybe a new and stronger
latch spring to keep the latch from moving.

Some of the things I did may not be needed by others, depending how fuzzy
you are about accuracy. If you are happy with an 1.5" group then you may
just get away with an o-ring.

One other item that is rarely mentioned is the bore dimension. I had three barrels  that were as much as 0.0015 bigger at the muzzle than at the chamber end.

With lands only 0.002" you will have a hard time making the rifle shoot because of blow by and poor engraving of the bullet. Besides you get considerable less velocity.

All this trouble with new rifles coming from the factory is very frustrating, lots of time I don't feel like making comments anymore.

I feel any new rifle rifle should shoot 1.5" at 100yards without frigging around.
Breaking in a barrel should ony take 20 rounds.

[Sourdough]

I use the o-ring.  When I am installing the forearm I look at the space between the forearm and the barrel.  I watch it as it gets smaller till it touches the barrel, then I back off to get the spacing I like.  I do all my Handis and Ultras this way.  I also use a thick o-ring, probably thicker than most people.

[PartsMan]

I have a 223 that likes to be as tight as I can stand.
My 25-06 shot best fairly loose with an O-ring.
Still haven't figured out my 7mm-08.

My point is you are all correct.
Every rifle from ever manufacturer is a little different.

[45carbine]

Thanks for the clarification Fred
Appreciate all the advice on this site. Don't really have the finances to learn by trial and error, so every-ones experiences are really appreciated.

I have worked on the latch, will adjust the forearm pressure using the plastic insert and will bed the forearm using the bedding compound as a pillar, but also back closer to the action. If this doesn't produce what i am after I will use the o-ring to see how changing up pressure on the barrel works. Ultimately though I think I will go down the path of the wedges in the end of the forearm if the o-ring makes a difference.

Will post some groups once I get this 45 shooting.

Cheers all

Mike