Author Topic: ok, so how many time has this happened to you? (Read 3404 times)

gooser · « **on:** December 31, 2007, 02:34:20 AM »

It was the last day of our muzzle loading season,and after seeing no bucks I decided I would take a doe(having a doe permit ). I had one dead to rights,sight right on her shoulder,not 50yds away,......I pulled the trigger on my TC Hawkins and.....snap,goes the cap,the deer is gone......but the rifle did not fire.

Bummer.
This is the second time it has happened to me.
Has anyone else had this happen? Oh the joys of muzzle loading.
gooser

rbergum95 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2007, 03:44:33 AM »

ive had it happen more than once. usually in less than perfect weather. it is part of the challenge to traditional muzzleloading. in fact i think that is one of the reasons i love this sport. the challenge of hunting with traditional muzzleloaders with traditional sights has no equal anywhere else in our sport.

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2007, 03:56:30 AM »

Actually never. I've never had a failure to fire with a muzzle loader. I admit I don't use them nearly so much as you guys who hunt extensively with them but still my procedure must work as I've never yet had a failure to fire.

I clean and oil the barrel well after each use. Then when I'm ready to use it again which for me might be years later I first pour alcohol down the barrel with the nipple removed and follow that up with a tight fitting patch wetted with alcohol. I then do the same with acetone and follow that up by snapping 2-3 caps. I clean the nipple the same using both alcohol and acetone before putting it back on. It's worked perfectly for me.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #3 on:** December 31, 2007, 04:27:56 AM »

Only once in 20 years, and then it was a blizzard. It was snowing so hard you couldn't see 30 yards in the bush. I tried to shoot the rifle off when I came out of the bush, and it took 4 caps to get it to fire. I always wipe the bore and fire a cap before loading.

simonkenton · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2007, 04:59:03 AM »

That has never happened to me, Gooser. Are you hunting in rainy weather? I take a powder on that one as I just don't hunt in the rain, call me a wimp if you want.
If that isn't your excuse then you are not using proper cleaning/loading procedure. I oil down my rifle real well after cleaning. Before I load I run clean patches down the bore a couple times. Then I get out the pipe cleaners, remove the nipple, and meticulously clean the drum, bottom of barrel, and nipple of all oil. This gives me the best of both worlds, a very thin film of oil to protect the metal, but not enought oil to dampen the powder.
I have been known to stick a particle or two of black powder in that drum right beneath the nipple. Do that, keep your powder dry and the damn thing will go boom!

Cheesehead · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2007, 05:04:59 AM »

I thought I was the only one that put powder under the nipple. In my experience it is a 100% guarantee of ignition.

Cheese

Idaho Ron · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2007, 11:42:01 AM »

Once! I was elk hunting and a friend of mine shot a cow. As I was going through the trees I had a chance to pop another. I pulled the hammer back and squeezed the trigger. Nothing. I looked and no cap. The elk got away, which was good. We had to track my friends elk 3 miles to get her finished off. When I capped the nipple the next time it went off. We were lucky at that point we only had one elk down. Ron

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2008, 08:56:54 AM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on December 31, 2007, 05:04:59 AM

I thought I was the only one that put powder under the nipple. In my experience it is a 100% guarantee of ignition.

Cheese

I know several people that do this. Do any of you notice if it causes any extra wear on the nipple or drum? My wife's uncle used to do it, then one time, when he fired the gun, the nipple flew out of the drum and the hammer broke. I don't think that he could have gotten enough powder under the nipple to produce enough pressure to make that happen? When I looked at the gun, the threads were messed up on the drum, and obviously, he didn't know where the nipple ended up, other than luckily not in his head or eye. It is an older CVA Hawken-type gun, least 15 yrs old. My thought was that by putting the powder under the nipple for so many years, that it just wore out/weakened the threads of the drum from heat and pressure. Alan didn't fire the gun a whole lot, maybe 10-15 times a year. The only other thing I can think of is that he put too much powder under it, and the nipple didn't tighten down all the way. But he's usually very careful and thorough with his practices, so who knows?

simonkenton · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:32:52 AM »

It does increase the pressure on the nipple to put some powder in the drum. I have filled the drum up with powder, and had the hammer blown back to recock position!
So after that I just put a llittle powder in there. In my initial post I was going to say I put 5 or 6 grains of powder there but I did not want to cause confusion. I don't mean 6 measured grains!
I mean, I put 5 or 6 little, individual specks of black powder in there. Doing that, I got 100 per cent ignition, but it didn't blow the hammer back to recock. I could tell of very little, if any, extra blowback from the nipple.
Now I would only fire the rifle loaded in this fashion maybe ten times a year, and I did that for maybe ten years.
I never blew out the nipple, that would have put the fear of God into me for sure.
I was shooting a TC Hawken, possibly it is stronger than the Spanish made CVA, I don't know.

Come to think of it the cap and ball revolver is loaded this way any time you shoot it. You have 30 grains of fffg sitting right inline with the nipple, and those nipples don't blow out.

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:56:13 AM »

My dad had a TC Hawken and i never had a misfire with it.....I have used it in all kinds of weather....He insisted on GOEX FFG Blackpowder....He said everytime he used pyrodex he would get the occasional misfire.....He swore he never had a misfire with real blackpowder....

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:57:15 PM »

Quote from: simonkenton on January 02, 2008, 07:32:52 AM

It does increase the pressure on the nipple to put some powder in the drum. I have filled the drum up with powder, and had the hammer blown back to recock position!
So after that I just put a llittle powder in there. In my initial post I was going to say I put 5 or 6 grains of powder there but I did not want to cause confusion. I don't mean 6 measured grains!
I mean, I put 5 or 6 little, individual specks of black powder in there. Doing that, I got 100 per cent ignition, but it didn't blow the hammer back to recock. I could tell of very little, if any, extra blowback from the nipple.
Now I would only fire the rifle loaded in this fashion maybe ten times a year, and I did that for maybe ten years.
I never blew out the nipple, that would have put the fear of God into me for sure.
I was shooting a TC Hawken, possibly it is stronger than the Spanish made CVA, I don't know.

Come to think of it the cap and ball revolver is loaded this way any time you shoot it. You have 30 grains of fffg sitting right inline with the nipple, and those nipples don't blow out.

You know, I've never enven thought about the revolver being like that. On further reflection, I'd say that the combination of the older gun and powder in the drum is what caused the problems. I'm sure that he didn't just put a few specks of powder in the drum. It did scare the daylights out of him. Literally right after it happened, he called me and said that he wanted to find an in-line to use from now on.

Bergoobob · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2008, 09:47:19 AM »

Only had it happen with Pyrodex when I was younger...........Never yet with black.............................Bob

Bowhunter57 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2008, 06:58:27 PM »

gooser,
The only time that I've had a misfire was while I was at the range with a .50 Cal. Hawken and trying out some Remington #11 caps. I had about 1 in 7 fire...after several hits with the Hawken hammer. At first I thought I'd give them to someone, but I couldn't think of anyone that I disliked that much. So, I threw them in the trash barrel at the range and continued using CCI #11s and have NEVER had a single misfire.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

simonkenton · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2008, 08:24:21 AM »

Oh I meant to mention, along with getting 100 percent ignition with my TC Hawken and black powder, I also used CCI caps.
Very reliable in my cap and ball revolvers also.

Really if a guy can't get reliable ignition with number 11s, it would be a good idea to start using musket caps.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2008, 07:17:12 AM »

I too put some powder under the nipple. When doing that I have never had a misfire.

deadrabbit · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2008, 03:36:45 PM »

The first day I ever muzzleloaded deer, my friend and I both had Renegades. At the end of the day we decided to fire our guns in the ditch. We both used roundballs, mine with a patch, his had some type of sabot with roundball. My cap went off but not the powder... we laughed and then he went to shoot his, pointed it down into the ditch, and his ball rolled out! LOL! He said at least he could pick the ball up and throw it at the deer LOL

Ever since then Ive filled my nipple hole with powder. I must admit I filled it to the top and I havent had any problems or misfires, but after reading this I'll lighten the amount of powder I put in the nipple.

Hoyt · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2008, 01:06:32 PM »

Never happened to me with caps or flints..yet. I did have a paper shotcup full of number 6's not open on a gobbler at about 20yds. once couple of yrs ago with flintlock.

william_75 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2008, 07:01:55 PM »

I also put powder under the nipple a couple of grains of FFFG

Golfswithwolves · « **Reply #18 on:** March 15, 2008, 08:05:59 AM »

You folks should get ahold of good flintlocks. Much more reliable than those new-fangled precussion contraptions!

Birddog 1 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 16, 2008, 05:25:57 PM »

I have never had a miss fire while hunting. I

NIm

Don't hit a happy face it deleted almost everything I wrote :-(

I have never had a miss fire while hunting or shooting. I oil my weapons after cleaning them and before I use them again I only use alcohol because it evaporates fast. I first insert the rod and patch about 2" into the muzzel then fill with alcohol with hammer at full cock I then start a pumping motion till I see and hear the alcohol jetting from the nipple this will clean any oil from the nipple and breach and barrel and we all know blackpowder and oil don't mix ( miss fires) so do this 2 times then pop a couple #11 CCI caps and a damp patch afterwords let dry with hammer at full cock pore powder in (3F Goex) and with the PRB push down and the air leaving through the nipple will force some powder out closer to the nipple and then cap it you are ready to go. You don't need to remove the nipple only when cleaning and a dab of oil on threads. Nim

gooser · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2008, 01:51:21 PM »

Thanks for the input everyone, seems to me I was using CCI caps at the time. I just think it was that deers lucky day......LOL.
Oh well, that's what makes muzzle loading fun.

By the way, I tried another cap, CCI, the next day and it fired just fine........

. Go figure...

gooser

Argonaut · « **Reply #21 on:** June 27, 2008, 05:20:15 AM »

I use a good sharp flint. hells full of them newfangled cap guns

coyotejoe · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2008, 05:36:42 AM »

.

Cheese

Quote

I know several people that do this. Do any of you notice if it causes any extra wear on the nipple or drum? My wife's uncle used to do it, then one time, when he fired the gun, the nipple flew out of the drum and the hammer broke. I don't think that he could have gotten enough powder under the nipple to produce enough pressure to make that happen?

I think more likely it is indeed "wear" caused by grinding up powder granules in the threads. I have found that if I dry ball and pull the nipple to get some powder under it, then it will feel very gritty and hard to get the nipple back in. It is also possible that he had cross-threaded the nipple a time or two and ruined the threads in that manner.
With drum and nipple guns I normally drill the flash channel large enough that powder from the main charge will flow right in under the nipple when the ball is rammed down, with no need to charge the drum separately. Most patent breeches, especially T/C and clones, have a very tiny flash channel which won't allow powder to enter and such guns are more prone to misfires, especially with Pyrodex. It is a design flaw which cannot be easily corrected but by taking pains to keep the flash channel clear and dry of oil one can "compensate" to some degree. I mostly shoot flintlocks but for a percussion I much prefer a flint style breech with drum and nipple over any patent breech.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 30, 2008, 06:20:37 AM »

Pyrodex RS tends to hangfire in T/C sidelocks, particularly larger than 50 caliber. Pyrodex Select is much more consistent IF you use musket caps. These guns were designed for black powder and that is what they function best with.

Before you load a positively empty barrel, snap at least 3 caps (musket caps if Pyrodex) in a safe direction to clear the barrel of oil. Oil tends to collect in the breech and can soak the powder charge. Snap with the barrel facing grass. Never stop snapping till you see the grass move and you are sure the breech and nipple are clear.

When you load the rifle, particularly with Pyrodex, lean the barrel in the direction of the nipple and tap the butt. This will allow powder to flow into the bolster.

Discharge your gun in a safe diection at the end of the day and wipe her down. Reload the next morning. Moisture is cumulative. Even the slightest rain water seems to find its way into the breech of "water proof" guns. When hunting on a rainy day, place black electricians tape over the muzzle.

Use Ballistol www.ballistol.com as your primary cleaning and lube agent, particularly in the field after shooting black powder. Squirt Ballistol into the muzzle when cleaning and pump it up and own and out the nipple, as you might with water or some other agent such as T/C #13. Ballistol seems to neutralize black powder residue and is a NATURAL product, not an oily product. It seems to work well with T/C Bore Butter. I don't clean my competition guns with water but once per year. The huge advantage of Ballistol is that if it gets under the barrel and onto the stock, it wont hurt it, but rather will help. Its good for both metal and wood. This stuff works great on black powder. I have no idea how it works on substitutes such as Pyrodex.

longcaribiner · « **Reply #24 on:** June 30, 2008, 09:13:57 AM »

Because of the way TC breech plugs are made, there is only a narrow hole for the powder to get back under the nipple. Normal hot water washing flushes this small channel out, but not always. It can become a hang up for grease and fouling and block enough that the fire doesn't come through from the nipple. Some fellas wash out the old grease with a bit of alcohol, (CAREFULLY away from cigarettes, sparks, pilot lights, welders etc.) snapping a couple caps before loading can help. After dumping the powder in and before the patch and ball, always rap the side of the gun a couple times to cause powder to settle into that channel. From a bad cap to a clogged nipple to darn near anything can cause such a misfire. Some fellas just have to grease up the entire inside of a muzzleloader every time they finish cleaning. The problem with being so extra careful before putting the gun away, is that it requires cleaning again before shooting. This may not be your problem, but chances are, it is part of it.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #25 on:** June 30, 2008, 12:56:19 PM »

I've been told a dozen times to pop caps before loading, but during hunting season I sometimes leave my gun loaded for a few days instead of pulling the charge or shooting and cleaning, so instead I just run a patch up and down the barrel, making sure I'm on half-cock so that air can pass freely in and out of the nipple. IMHO this does the same job as a cap without leaving fouling behind to collect moisture and create corrosion.

gooser · « **Reply #26 on:** July 08, 2008, 02:35:06 PM »

my buddy still rides me about that day,the "rice krispie gun",............Snap, Crackle,.........Pop.
Oh well, thats muzzle loading........

surveyor47 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2008, 02:59:58 AM »

When experienced muzzle loaders tell you that you really need to snap a few caps prior to loading to clear oil or grease, why would you not heed their advice? My guns go "bang" when I pull the trigger! Every time I hear a tale of woe about a gun failure during deer season, it is usually related to either rainwater or failure to snap caps prior to loading. This is muzzle loading 101. Even modern 209 inlines should be snapped a few times prior to loading.

The last time I hunted in rain, I pulled the breech plug of my supposedly water proof T/C Omega at the end of the day only to find a soaked powder charge. Water got in even through I used electricians tape over the muzzle. I am more and more becoming a believer in NOT leaving a gun loaded for several days, but instead of discharging the weapon at the end of the day. Use Ballistol to clean and neutralize powder residue in the barrel. Only a light cleaning is necessary- it should take about 5 minutes. Don't use water- use Ballsitol only. Pump it up and down and out the nipple. Remove the nipple and wipe it down, making sure it is clear before replacing it. Use a Q-tip to clean the nipple thread. Dry patch the barrel several times. Snap several caps in the morning and reload. I compete with muzzle loaders and our season is several months long. We do not disassemble our guns except maybe once per year and give it a good water bath, because disassembly changes the point of aim. The ONLY cleaning agent and lubricant many competitors use is Ballistol. My guns are in tip top condition and they go off every time. I practice what I preach.

In the event that your gun fails to fire, soak the powder charge with oil- not water- preferably Ballsitol prior to trying to pull the charge. I have seen several ruined barrels caused by use of water to soak the powder charge. Good chance you wont get the bullet out of a T/C caplock and they will have to pull the breech plug. If you use Ballsitol to soak the charge, the corrosive effects will be largely negated and you will probably save your barrel. Buy a good bullet puller and learn how to use it.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #28 on:** August 03, 2008, 09:38:38 AM »

Quote from: surveyor47 on August 03, 2008, 02:59:58 AM

When experienced muzzle loaders tell you that you really need to snap a few caps prior to loading to clear oil or grease, why would you not heed their advice? My guns go "bang" when I pull the trigger! Every time I hear a tale of woe about a gun failure during deer season, it is usually related to either rainwater or failure to snap caps prior to loading. This is muzzle loading 101. Even modern 209 inlines should be snapped a few times prior to loading.

Just going by my experience with flinters. I've found that swabbing with alcohol or even just dry-patching and pushing air through is also effective. Most of the shooting I do now is with my flintlock.

surveyor47 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2008, 04:17:20 PM »

Quote from: kevthebassman on June 30, 2008, 12:56:19 PM

I've been told a dozen times to pop caps before loading, but during hunting season I sometimes leave my gun loaded for a few days instead of pulling the charge or shooting and cleaning, so instead I just run a patch up and down the barrel, making sure I'm on half-cock so that air can pass freely in and out of the nipple. IMHO this does the same job as a cap without leaving fouling behind to collect moisture and create corrosion.

Wrong. The problem is that you simply don't know what the condition of your powder charge is even after hunting a near bluebird dry day. I own a T/C Omega which has a threaded breech plug which is easily removed. I have been really surprised on more than one occasion, finding a damp charge. With a 209 primer the gun just might have gone off, but then maybe not. The Omega taught me to check frequently. The only explanation I can come up with is condensation.

The reason hunters are reluctant to fire a round in the field is the mess usually associated with cleaning a muzzle loader- but away from home and modern facilities. I used to dread cleaning my gun in the field. If you use Ballistol www.ballistol.com black powder residue is not a problem. A 5 minute cleaning with Ballistol only does the trick. There is not a spot of rust on my muzzle loaders and all I use is Ballistol. The stuff negates the corrosive effects of black powder and is an excellent lubricant- all natural. This product has completely changed the way I clean muzzle loading firearms. You don't have to get the gun spotless the way you do with other products. I have a whole shelf of muzzle loading cleaning products that I have absolutely no use for, since I began using this stuff. All you need for field cleaning is a spray can of Ballistol, a cleaning rod, brush, jag and plenty of patches.