Author Topic: Range etiquette  (Read 1676 times)

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Offline doghawg

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Range etiquette
« on: December 31, 2007, 04:08:28 AM »
 I went to the range yesterday with several different revolvers to shoot up some odds and ends ammo. It's going to be one load per gun rather than trying to keep track of what gun is sighted in for what load.

 Well, anyway.....I left my guns and equipment in the heated range shack and was just outside the door and shooting at the first bench. There was one other shooter inside and when I looked back in the window he was handling one of my revolvers. I went back inside and there was my days inventory of guns laid out before him. Although he's not a friend I've known this man for years and theft was not the issue, it was his lack of class and etiquette that set me off.  >:(

 I blew a gasket and told him he had no business rummaging through some else's equipment without asking. I would never handle another persons firearm without first asking.

 Any opinions?

Offline JerryNH

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 04:43:41 AM »
I think common courtesy would call for him to ask if he may pick your gun up to look at. I know I would never pick up someones gun without first asking.  But I wouldn't blow a gasket either if someone picked up one of mine, I would just let him or her know quietly that I  don't like people handling my guns. Just my 2 cents!

Offline doghawg

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 04:57:31 AM »
 I should define "blowing a gasket". I didn't threaten or call him names etc. but he did know I was unhappy.

Offline jhm

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 05:19:19 AM »
One other thing you might have done was to mention it to the range officer and let him be aware of it so if it is a habit of this person that it wasnt appreciated, Ive owned a couple Gunshops and MOST shooters enjoy other looking at their weapons, however the main rule would be ASK first.  JIM

Offline jhm

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 05:29:34 AM »
And BTW it is also the range SAFETY OFFICERS responsibilities to see the the NO GUNS handled rule is in effect when shooters are down range!!!   JIM

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 05:36:57 AM »
I'm thinking polite and stern.  I once saw a guy pick up a krieghoff shotgun without permission only to be politely asked by the owner to please not handle his property and put it back in the rack.  The guy did only to have it slip out and hit the pavement floor.
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Offline doghawg

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 05:44:14 AM »
 As it stands right now we do not have an on-site range officer. The person in question didn't handle a gun while anyone was down range. What he did do was to rummage through and remove the contents of a two-layered pistol case and unzip a gun rug and remove the revolver without asking. I felt bad later for raising my hackles but upon furthur review am convinced he was out of line.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 07:16:37 AM »

 Well, anyway.....I left my guns and equipment in the heated range shack and was just outside the door and shooting at the first bench. There was one other shooter inside and when I looked back in the window he was handling one of my revolvers. I went back inside and there was my days inventory of guns laid out before him. Although he's not a friend I've known this man for years and theft was not the issue, it was his lack of class and etiquette that set me off.  >:(

 Any opinions?

The opinion of a former Hunter Safety Instructor:

Dawg:  I believe that you have failed to identify the other safety issue.  The issue is that you left unsupervised firearms where others could get to them.  When you are dealing with firearms trusting on to others and a failure to redeem your own responsibility is no excuse an an inquest.

If I go to a range and do not have a partner extra firearms are locked in my vehicle unit I am ready to use them.  Safety cannot be compromised, and the shooter who fails to provide for safety may face civil and criminal liability
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Offline doghawg

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2007, 08:07:13 AM »
 OHHH KAY.....

 Obviously I haven't communicated this very well. I AM currently a Hunter Ed. instructor. I was shooting from the first bench which is 10 feet outside of a heated range shack. The only other shooter at the FENCED IN PRIVATE range is a bullseye shooter inside the shack which has a half dozen lift-the-window type shooting stations for indoor shooting. We are shooting at 25 yards at target frames which are side by side....him from inside the shack and me from outside.The person in question is a long standing club member and safe/unsafe gun handling wasn't the issue. NO UNSAFE HANDLING WAS OBSERVED.

 Turning this into an "inquest" was not my intent.  Are you telling me that if you have more than one gun to shoot at a nearly deserted private range in 20 degree temp you'd walk back to the parking lot with each individual gun? I was standing 10 feet away. Again, my question is whether you folks would be offended by someone opening your gun case uninvited and examing the contents.


Offline myronman3

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2007, 09:50:51 AM »
yup, i'd be offended AND p.o.ed.  while at the range, i ALWAYS have a loaded gun on my belt, no other guns with me are loaded unless i am shooting them at the time.  ammo is not left with the firearms, either.  it isnt that i dont trust folks,  it is just that i dont trust folks.   
   people who i talk with at the range who are deemed friendly, are often invited to try any of my guns they like.  anyone handling a gun of mine without permisson might as well be trying to handle my girl.   THAT  wouldnt be received well. 
all that being said,  i have had many people, from young children to police officers try my guns.  i have never had a problem,  but i dont leave the window open for it. 

Offline LEO

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2007, 12:47:43 PM »
Basic etiquette is never touch another persons property without their permission unless it is necessary to prevent that properties damage or theft.  If in your situation I probably would have gladly shown them the handgun had they asked but I too would have been ticked if they rummaged through my bag looking at my stuff. 

Since safety was brought up I was on a public range on Christmas Eve when I witnessed some very unsafe gun handling with several other people present.  I told the fellow about it politely and he laughed it off.  A few minutes later he once again pointed a loaded firearm in an unsafe direction, I once again advised him of his transgression, once again in a polite manner and referred him to the posted range safety rules.  He said he would handle his gun as he saw fit he had paid his money to shoot and he would do it how he wanted. (there is no range officer or safety officer present at this range)  I said fine and started packing my stuff up.  At this time he asked what I was doing and I said that it was time for me to go.  He then started to become beligerent, at this time one of his buddies (who I had dealt with professionally), looked at him and told him, you don't know who you are talking to and unless you want to spend Christmas in jail you better drop it.  I looked at his buddy, grinned and left.  But the point is you never know what is going to happen when you bring up a breach of etiquette at the range.  So sometimes it may well be better to just leave rather than push the issue.

Offline warrior1

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2007, 01:06:56 PM »
dawg, i would have been a little excited myself,and like you i would have pointed out this guys error.
i cannot think of a time in the last several years where such an incident happened,even the range officers will not
handle a shooters gun without first summoning him to the bench. dan
Dan Deluca aka "warrior1" has passed away.  Dan was a frequent poster here and on several other sites.  He passed away on 12/29/08 from a massive heart attack. RIP Dan.

Offline doghawg

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2007, 01:30:18 PM »
 I think most of us would gladly offer to allow a responsible person to handle our firearms....if they had the courtesy to ask. Most gun nuts are actually flattered when a fellow shooter admires their toys. First, I want to double check that it's unloaded and if I don't want it dry-fired I'll say so.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2008, 04:24:35 AM »
Siskiyou, are you saying we should keep out arms around our possessions, like selfish 5 year old? Come on, this guy crossed the line and was wrong in handling others weapons. I, too, teach hunter safety here in Illinois but, don't agree with your opinion on this. The safety violation was when this guy picked up someone else's  property.
If I ever see one of my students doing something like this, it would take a three day weekend for the bite marks to heel on their a**.
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2008, 07:18:35 AM »
First off I do not mind sharing and displaying my firearms under my supervision.   But the owner must not abandon their responsibility to the safety of others or their safety.  There is a big difference between a friend and an acquaintance. It was definitely wrong for this man to handle dwag’s firearms and any other equipment.

After over thirty years as a first responder and law officer I have heard all the sad stories.  I have smelled the fresh blood, vomit, heard the cries of pain, and held the pressure bandage.  I have also testified at the manslaughter and second-degree murder trials involving firearm “accidents.” I recall the look of shock on the face of a shooter’s mother during a trail when the color pictures were shown of the victim with the bullet hole in the head, and the incision in the neck for the breathing tube.

I have observed adults act like young children around firearms, and they cannot keep their hands off them.  A person who may not steal your firearm may handle it behind your back.  The other unfortunate thing is when a friend steals a firearm.  It is interesting when an officer checks a firearm and it comes up stolen in the system.  Johnny is arrested for being in the possession of a stolen firearm.  The follow-up investigation discloses that Johnny was a visitor in the victim’s home around the time of the theft. 

It is not unheard of for firearms to be stolen at a range.  The shooter is focusing on what is out front off him, and checking his target.  He telescopic vision down range, and his hearing is limited by hearing protection.  In this case it is fortunate that dwag became aware of the activity in the shelter but the other individual still had time to handle his firearms.

A while back I was at a range early and was alone.  But I kept only one firearm out of my vehicle and the others locked in it.  When other shooters showed up we talk firearms, and one guy had a couple that I admired.  But when it came time to shoot the only unsecured firearms arms I had out was the pistol on my belt and the rifle I was shooting. 

I believe in a good Hunter Safety Program but the learning process does not end when the student walks out the door with a certificate.  We added a new shooter to the family by marriage that wants to hunt with us this fall.  We are looking forward to his company in the field, but he must first attend a Hunter Safety Program, and then a tougher course.  His father-in-law and I will administrate the course.  It will expand on the Hunter Safety Program with a lot of centerfire rifle handling and firing.  It will deal with safe gun handling, and firearm security and the course will take three field days.   

I can reach back to my law enforcement firearms qualification days.  Typically a qualification day would involve qualification with one or more handguns, a shotgun, and a rifle.  First off the handling of firearms by shooters behind the line of fire was not allowed.  Firearms not being used in the activit course were secured in vehicles.  Meaning our shotguns and assault rifles were not setting out when we were qualifying with our handguns.  The whole objective is safety.

The other day I was looking at the different incidents in the State on the dispatch net.  One incident caught my attention, an individual was shot on a range with a shotgun, and EMT, Fire, and law enforcement were dispatched.

Years ago a friend and took another person to the range.  The three of us went up to the firing line having agreed on how many rounds we would fire and our course of action.  Despite our earlier discussion when the third person’s Browning HP jammed he broke protocol and stepped behind us to clear the jam.  His weapon discharged sending a round into the side of a garbage bin.  You cannot even trust people who you know slightly.

As I walk into the sporting goods store I made note of the signs on the door and adjacent window stating loaded firearms were not allowed in the building.  I soon noticed a customer enter carrying a .22 rifle.  The customer went up to the counter and explained he was having problems with the rifle. (At that point I put a display case between the customer and myself.)  Fortunately when the rifle discharged it was pointed at the ceiling, all it killed was a florescent light, and the ceiling.

You may think I am harsh, but times have changed, the legislatures are holding gun owners criminally libel for the acts of another.  Meaning that if your unsecured firearm is stolen and used in the commission of a crime the owner of the firearm can be held liable.  Even if you escape prosecution you can be held accountable in civil court actions.  If McDonalds with all its lawyers can be held liable for a spilled cup of coffee, just think what a plaintiff’s lawyer can do to a gun owner. 


There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2008, 07:25:55 AM »
heres my take on it. You may not like it but it wont be the first time i someone didnt like what i said. If you left them unattended and the guy was just carefully admireing them. I dont think he did anything wrong. I could care less if someone handles one of my guns. If the guy dropped it then it would be a different story. Now to the thing your not going to like. If i was a range officer and i saw that you left your guns unattended it would in a very rude tone of voice ask you to leave my range. If a gun is out of a case and unattended and someone shot themselves with it you and the range officer would have been hung out to dry. If you need to unload more then you can carry in one trip from your car you leave the cases locked till you are in control of them.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2008, 08:05:09 AM »
At the club I belong too there is not much chance of leaving a weapon unattended as stated in this case.
BUT, if it was such I would not expect my weapons too be fondled without my permission.
I think the fellow was grossly gross in doing so--I find it difficult too see it any other way.
Some folks don't have much common sense and I suppose I could see myself clear too be agitated but it would not happen again---I would make sure I would not commit that error.
It is better, at this point, to see my error and accept what to me would be my portion of responsibility in this folly--whether or not it was real or oversight on my part---and just go on, giving thanks that nothing more came of this than my anger.
My opinion.
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Offline jsoukup

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2008, 08:32:38 AM »
I would equate it to having some guy reach out and touch my wife's breast.

Offline sdb777

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2008, 08:49:57 AM »
I would equate it to having some guy reach out and touch my wife's breast.


Along the lines of what I was thinking, but would have to add..."I'd still be upset, even if they asked to touch her breasts!"


Touching some one else property is completely unacceptable, unless the owner is there and was asked if it was alright.  Only after I'd cleared the chamber(safety first thing), would I let them handle my firearms.  Digging through someones range bag......ouch!


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Offline Mikey

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2008, 08:53:10 AM »
Dawg:  this is just my opinion but I feel you were absolutely correct in your actions.  

I agree with myronman and LEO with their statements.

Courtesy provides you ask first if you want to see or possibly handle someone else's firearms.  This is a definite, period.  

Nobody else has the right to handle your personal property without your permission, period.  And regardless of who he is a lack of familiarity with your possessions, especially firearms, can be very dangerous.  

When at the range I always have one loaded firearm in my belt.  The other(s) I am using either stay with me on my frequent trips to the targets or they remain within my eyesight unloaded.  My response, to anyone I do not know personally who wants to handle my possessions, is a very affirmative 'Back away from my equipment!  Now!', firearm in hand an all.  Those who accompany me to the range know better than to rummage through my possessions and I show them the same courtesy.  

I can tell you for a fact that firearms theft from unsupervised shooting ranges is pretty extensive.  Those who would take your firearms wait for you to either run out of ammo or leave your gun(s) on the bench while you check your targets. These may even be people who were there when you got there but when you go downrange you come back to find something missing and them gone.  Some don't even mind threatening you with their own guns if you get suspicious.   I may leave equipment and ammo on the bench or in the shack but the guns either stay with me or occupy the locked trunk of my car if there are people at the range I don't know.  

I don't think you did anything wrong, period.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

Offline doghawg

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2008, 01:41:36 PM »
  Thanks for the replies....some of which are very thought provoking.

  To once again attempt to clarify the situation; We are are gated fenced in private range for members only. There is no range master. We hang our own targets. When the range is shut down with the buzzer nobody is allowed to handle firearms. When the range is shut down it is an accepted practice to leave firearms on the bench UNLOADED WITH ACTIONS OPEN while we hang more targets or spray paint a swinger or whatever. This was NOT the case on Sunday. I was within spittin' distance of my revolvers when the incident occured

 BUT......Some of the points brought up about liability and responsibility are issues I've personally never given a lot of thought to. We screen and background check prospective members but, who knows?

 A secluded spot back in the boonies is still the best place to have a relaxed and enjoyable shoot and I pick up ALL my trash.
 

Offline JerryNH

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2008, 11:07:58 PM »
Dawg, I hafta revise my earlier comments. I think I would blow a gasket if he opened my case and started handling my weapons! My first impression was that you had the gun lying on the bench and he just picked it up to admire but to open a person's gun case without permission goes beyond a simple lack of courtesy in my book.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2008, 07:28:01 AM »
got to agree that opening someones case takes a set of brass ones!
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Offline COR

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2008, 11:17:25 AM »
The fact that a gun was unzipped from a case makes a blown gasket understandable.  Here's the difference so all of you guys get it...If my lady has her breast bared for all to see than I can understand an inquisitive "grab", however if they are unbuttoned and then handled I'd have to say a "blown gasket " would be just the start.   ;)

Offline scout34

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2008, 04:04:17 AM »
This guy was way over the line.  I don't think that you overreacted.  Criminals rely on someones polite response or unwillingness to make a scene to accomplish what they want.  I'm not saying that the guy who dug through your stuff is a criminal, I'm saying you should not make exceptions in your security for people you are not absolutely sure about.

That being said, it is your responsibility to keep your stuff secure.  I agree with Siskyou.  If its out of your sight and not locked up or in the care of someone you trust, it is not secure.

I learned my lesson the hard way.  I took 6 guns to the range and left with 5.  All my own fault, I got distracted and miscounted as I loaded up and did not realize it until I got home.  I called the range and they had the piece in question there, luckily for me.  Since then I do not take more than 3 guns at a time unless I have someone to help me, and the ones that I am not using stay in the truck until it is time to use them.

Offline THEPLUMBER

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2008, 12:20:43 PM »
That guy was an idiot! And a rude one at that. That's like throwing a leg over some guys bike in the parking lot and "checkin' it out"! Just not done.

Offline GypsmJim

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2008, 03:55:41 PM »
If someone was down range and the guns were secured, he had no business touching them and he should be cited by the club's officers.

If no one was down range and the guns were not secured (because they didn't need to be) they could have been loaded and he had no business touching them, so he should be cited.

It is customary to ask the owner first and then insist that the action be opened before it is given.
Jim

Offline S.B.

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2008, 06:29:33 PM »
That guy was an idiot! And a rude one at that. That's like throwing a leg over some guys bike in the parking lot and "checkin' it out"! Just not done.
I'd do my best to see that this leg was broken?
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Offline GhosT

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2008, 09:18:57 PM »
DAWG,
READ most but not all responses.

IMHO,FACT IS...

NOBODY has the right to touch yer guns without asking first!

IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Offline Greeenriver

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Re: Range etiquette
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2008, 04:47:41 PM »
heres my take on it. You may not like it but it wont be the first time i someone didnt like what i said. If you left them unattended and the guy was just carefully admireing them. I dont think he did anything wrong.

Lloyd, in this case, I believe you are  wrong. The man looking at the guns knew everything he needed to know about them.  HE KNEW THEY WERN'T HIS!!!!!!!!! THAT'S ALL ANYONE NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT ANYONE'S GUNS WITHOUT PERMISSION  TO  HANDEL THEM!!!!!

 I could care less if someone handles one of my guns.

I agree, if they ask first, about anyone can Handel and look at my guns.

 If the guy dropped it then it would be a different story. Now to the thing your not going to like. If i was a range officer and i saw that you left your guns unattended it would in a very rude tone of voice ask you to leave my range. If a gun is out of a case and unattended and someone shot themselves with it you and the range officer would have been hung out to dry. If you need to unload more then you can carry in one trip from your car you leave the cases locked till you are in control of them.

That['s simple good sense and I agree completely, but that DON'T ALLOW ANYONE TO PICK PU SOMEONE ELSE'S GUNS AND HANDEL THEM WITH OUT FIRST ASKING FOR PERMISSIONON!!!


Greeenriver
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