Author Topic: Presidential Pardons & Justice (Read 2745 times)

Dee · « **on:** December 31, 2007, 07:30:57 AM »

The current President has at this writing pardoned in excess of 101 CONVICTED FELONS, with charges ranging from "MOONSHINNING" to "BANK ROBBERY". Yes, you read right. BANK ROBBERY.

So what is my point?

A couple of Border Patrol Agents by the names of Agent Compean, and Agent Ramos are doing prison terms of 11, and 12 years for shooting a Mexican National by the name of Aldrete-Davila on U.S. soil while trying to arrest him for, of all things. DRUG SMUGGLING! Upon learning of this incident the Dept of Homeland Security went to Mexico and offered Davila, FULL IMMUNITY for testifying against these two agents, which he did, and then SUED THE BORDER PATROL for $5,000,000.00 dollars for the incident.
Davila has since been caught AGAIN, for drug smuggling while the two agents languish in a Federal Prison.

If someone wants to accuse me of Bush Bashing as is the POPULAR ACCUSATION on this forum, then so be it. BUT! My point here IS. Why in hell, is our President using his valuable time pardoning MOONSHINNERS, for Christ's sake, and BANK ROBBERS

, and letting these two protectors of the Border lay in Prison.

He pardoned his buddy "Scooter Libby" for lying, but ignores this atrocity, when it is common knowledge that drug dealers, and drug smugglers contribute NOTHING BUT MISERY to ANY society.

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE IN THIS, AND WERE ARE AMERICANS, when something like this is allowed.

deltecs · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2007, 01:41:02 PM »

I do not often agree with you regarding your opinions of Pres Bush, however, this time you are more than absolutely correct. It is a tragic miscarriage of justice to pardon bank robbers and drug smugglers for whatever reason. If the felons are good enough people to warrant a pardon, then use the courts to present new evidence and appeal for reduced sentence. Otherwise, serve the entire term. There are some things I do not like about our current President and this is one of them. Another is his stance on illegal immigration.

Dee · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2007, 02:38:31 PM »

Ya know deltecs, I voted for GW twice as President, and every time as Governor, and quite honestly he was a great governor, which is why I voted for him as president. It isn't a matter of dislike for him, as I have never met him, nor wishing to bash him, as it is commonly referred to. It is a matter of facts, and this is just one of them.
In Texas, we are watching hospitals close due to illegal aliens abusing them, along with other social services, and hospitalization down here is outrageously high because of it. They don't insure themselves, and their cars, and will move into neighborhoods, and destroy property values by moving in 15 or 20 people into one house.
GW's and all the other politicians answer to the problem is the Patriot Act which affects no one but Americans, and REFUSING to shut down out borders.
This pardon issue is just one of many. Those Agents should have never spent a day in our prison system, or a day off the job. It is a sad day when the President of the United States has time to pardon a moonshiner and a bank robber, but will preach "national security" CONTINUALLY, and not pardon two Border Patrol Agents and at the same time commend them for stopping a drug smuggler. Americans need to support our troops and law enforcement and at the same time call it like it really is, instead of protecting and defending people they like, even when they are guilty of neglecting out security. When some one is doing a good job you support them. When they are IGNORING the people's will, and doing what they want to do, while promising something else, they should not be supported, nor defending but rebuked. JMO

deltecs · « **Reply #3 on:** December 31, 2007, 02:48:02 PM »

No problem with me on most of what you stated. The one concept I'm not in total agreement with is the "will of the people'. The polls show the will of the people in retreating from Iraq. I disagree with them and think we need a strong President who will stay the course on defending American security. By removal of our troops from Iraq, (regardless of the reasons how we got there) will only provide terrorists with the moral victory to continue anti American attacks throughout the world. I realize this is not in line with the will of the people, but as you and I know, the will of the people is extremely fickle. Look at the will of the people now and just after 9/11, or the will of Congressmen in approving the attack on Iraq. I call that fickle.

Dee · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2007, 03:32:52 PM »

I am in total agreement with the average American changing his mind, however we will have to agree to disagree, on the Iraq war issue. I believe it was a mistake, as do many Americans, and will have to disagree in favor of saving American lives, (soldiers) in adverse to staying for appearance sake.
The Afghan war however, I do not feel was a mistake. I believe it was spot on. My biggest problem however, with both wars, is that our government doesn't have the courage to WIN either, and hasn't since WWII. Police actions have PROVEN to accomplish very little, other than to get a lot of good Americans killed. If we are going to fight a war, lets win the damn thing, don't rebuild the country we just blew up, tell them if they don't leave us alone we will come back and do it again, and then leave. JMO

nomosendero · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2007, 03:51:21 PM »

Quote from: Dee on December 31, 2007, 07:30:57 AM

The current President has at this writing pardoned in excess of 101 CONVICTED FELONS, with charges ranging from "MOONSHINNING" to "BANK ROBBERY". Yes, you read right. BANK ROBBERY.

So what is my point?

A couple of Border Patrol Agents by the names of Agent Compean, and Agent Ramos are doing prison terms of 11, and 12 years for shooting a Mexican National by the name of Aldrete-Davila on U.S. soil while trying to arrest him for, of all things. DRUG SMUGGLING! Upon learning of this incident the Dept of Homeland Security went to Mexico and offered Davila, FULL IMMUNITY for testifying against these two agents, which he did, and then SUED THE BORDER PATROL for $5,000,000.00 dollars for the incident.
Davila has since been caught AGAIN, for drug smuggling while the two agents languish in a Federal Prison.

If someone wants to accuse me of Bush Bashing as is the POPULAR ACCUSATION on this forum, then so be it. BUT! My point here IS. Why in hell, is our President using his valuable time pardoning MOONSHINNERS, for Christ's sake, and BANK ROBBERS , and letting these two protectors of the Border lay in Prison.

He pardoned his buddy "Scooter Libby" for lying, but ignores this atrocity, when it is common knowledge that drug dealers, and drug smugglers contribute NOTHING BUT MISERY to ANY society.

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE IN THIS, AND WERE ARE AMERICANS, when something like this is allowed.

It is not to be found!!!

nomosendero · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2007, 03:54:35 PM »

Quote from: Dee on December 31, 2007, 02:38:31 PM

Ya know deltecs, I voted for GW twice as President, and every time as Governor, and quite honestly he was a great governor, which is why I voted for him as president. It isn't a matter of dislike for him, as I have never met him, nor wishing to bash him, as it is commonly referred to. It is a matter of facts, and this is just one of them.
In Texas, we are watching hospitals close due to illegal aliens abusing them, along with other social services, and hospitalization down here is outrageously high because of it. They don't insure themselves, and their cars, and will move into neighborhoods, and destroy property values by moving in 15 or 20 people into one house.
GW's and all the other politicians answer to the problem is the Patriot Act which affects no one but Americans, and REFUSING to shut down out borders.
This pardon issue is just one of many. Those Agents should have never spent a day in our prison system, or a day off the job. It is a sad day when the President of the United States has time to pardon a moonshiner and a bank robber, but will preach "national security" CONTINUALLY, and not pardon two Border Patrol Agents and at the same time commend them for stopping a drug smuggler. Americans need to support our troops and law enforcement and at the same time call it like it really is, instead of protecting and defending people they like, even when they are guilty of neglecting out security. When some one is doing a good job you support them. When they are IGNORING the people's will, and doing what they want to do, while promising something else, they should not be supported, nor defending but rebuked. JMO

Yep!!! My cousin's oldest son is a Border Patrol Agent, lives a few miles west of El Paso in NM. I know enough to make me puke, that's for sure.

nomosendero · « **Reply #7 on:** December 31, 2007, 04:08:30 PM »

Quote from: Dee on December 31, 2007, 03:32:52 PM

I am in total agreement with the average American changing his mind, however we will have to agree to disagree, on the Iraq war issue. I believe it was a mistake, as do many Americans, and will have to disagree in favor of saving American lives, (soldiers) in adverse to staying for appearance sake.
The Afghan war however, I do not feel was a mistake. I believe it was spot on. My biggest problem however, with both wars, is that our government doesn't have the courage to WIN either, and hasn't since WWII. Police actions have PROVEN to accomplish very little, other than to get a lot of good Americans killed. If we are going to fight a war, lets win the damn thing, don't rebuild the country we just blew up, tell them if they don't leave us alone we will come back and do it again, and then leave. JMO

I agree with this too, except in the Iraq part, I don't disagree with going, but I think we became too political, from Falusia(mispelled) & onward especially. We did not have to wait a year to try & kill Sadam & we were too easy on those who were hiding the enemy, some innocent people get killed, but put the fear in them. I feel if this had been done with more force early we could be leaving now & with respect.

Dee, I feel I agree with you too much right now, scary.

gypsyman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 01, 2008, 02:36:14 AM »

I too voted for this man twice. But the longer he's in office, the more he's like on an escalator on the down side. He started out pretty good, but for some reason, he just keeps getting worse. gypsyman

Dee · « **Reply #9 on:** January 01, 2008, 02:44:20 AM »

gypsyman, most politicians QUIT LISTENING to the people once they get into office, and apparently come to the conclusion, that they must be smarter than the rest of us, else they wouldn"t be where they are. They have FORGOTTEN (until election day) HOW they got there, and GW, is not running any more any way.

williamlayton · « **Reply #10 on:** January 01, 2008, 03:31:52 AM »

Whenever did you ever consider that any politician listened to anyone other that those who got him elected----the people are not included in this discussion.
Blessings

Dee · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2008, 05:34:21 AM »

williamlayton · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2008, 11:00:04 AM »

bulzaye · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2008, 01:20:05 PM »

Not to start anything but Bush surely has pardoned some morons. However he did not pardon his buddy Scooter Libby. He commuted his sentence. He still has a criminal record. When you are pardoned your record is totally wiped clean. Not much of a difference but it only meant that Libby did not have to go to Prison.

Dee · « **Reply #14 on:** January 01, 2008, 01:28:44 PM »

You are correct on Sir on Mr. Libby, I stand corrected. The question remains, why are those two Border Patrolmen still in prision, and the smuggler out gettin caught again?

deltecs · « **Reply #15 on:** January 01, 2008, 01:50:38 PM »

These men should be pardoned. But we all know that justice is not always correct. In today's Fox news, Sandy Berger, a convicted felon for stealing classified documents relating to the Clintons, is now an adviser to Hitlery's campaign. And she wants to be President by asking advice from a person who cannot even vote due illegal activities. Berger is extremely close to both Slick Willy and Hitlery as a close personal friend. Her press office has reported that Berger is not a paid consultant and is only advising on a personal basis. And the public has a high regard for these individuals? I wonder just what debt is owed to Berger by the Clintons. Another pardon for a convicted felon who stole classified documents?

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #16 on:** January 01, 2008, 02:12:40 PM »

Dee

You have listed bank robbers and moonshiners as pardenees'. And you ask why the president has not pardoned other people. You have relied to heavily on the news media to report to you. You have no idea what really happened down there in Texas. You also probably have no idea what the circumstances were, that our president pardoned these people for. Remember the news media lies, alot. Before you speak maybe you should take a look at the cases. Some you will find were convicted in the 70's and ran out of appeals. Now with new tech and science were found to be Innocent. Yet they could not appeal as they have ran out of them.

War on Iraq was with out question needed. Remember September 11, 2000. I will never for get it and if my president did not fight back I would have lost all respect for him. The problem over there right now is rules. Get rid of the N.A.T.O. and Geneva and drop all the rules in a fight, and this goes real fast in our favor.

The problem with Bush is the same problem that will hurt any president of the future. The government is to big, and to many politicians owe this guy and that girl a favor.

bulzaye · « **Reply #17 on:** January 01, 2008, 02:26:50 PM »

Dee I totally agree they should never have been arrested in the first place. This country looks in the exact opposite direction it should. The criminals are in the right and the law enforcement have to watch themselves every minute or be in jail themsellves. I wish I had a solution but unfortunately I do not. Now do I expect him to pardon Libby in a year as he is going out the door, yes I do. I also do not know what happened in Texas that night, but I would take the word of 2 federal agents over one mexican drug dealer. The only problem I see that night was the mexican lived.

Dee · « **Reply #18 on:** January 01, 2008, 05:01:53 PM »

Quote from: Prebanpaul on January 01, 2008, 02:12:40 PM

Dee

You have listed bank robbers and moonshiners as pardenees'. And you ask why the president has not pardoned other people. You have relied to heavily on the news media to report to you. You have no idea what really happened down there in Texas. You also probably have no idea what the circumstances were, that our president pardoned these people for. Remember the news media lies, alot. Before you speak maybe you should take a look at the cases. Some you will find were convicted in the 70's and ran out of appeals. Now with new tech and science were found to be Innocent. Yet they could not appeal as they have ran out of them.

War on Iraq was with out question needed. Remember September 11, 2000. I will never for get it and if my president did not fight back I would have lost all respect for him. The problem over there right now is rules. Get rid of the N.A.T.O. and Geneva and drop all the rules in a fight, and this goes real fast in our favor.
Educate yourself before you type. It looks better on paper.
The problem with Bush is the same problem that will hurt any president of the future. The government is to big, and to many politicians owe this guy and that girl a favor.

Prebanpaul, how many of the cases have YOU PERSONALLY investigated to make such a statement. I'll bet none. I have dealt with you before, and you are the HEAR SAY, THEORIST KING. You your self, haven't a CLUE what happened down here, and your ASS UMPT IONS on where I got my info on the pardonees and the Border Patrol Agents is just that. An ASS UMPT ION. Why do you insist on making moronic remarks and accusations about things you know nothing about, in an always KNOW IT ALL, CONDESENDING TONE. Perhaps it is because you are a KNOW IT ALL.
Educate yourself before you type. It makes better sense on paper, and it just LOOKS BETTER. If they (these pardonees YOU speak of) were thru "better technology" as you say, found to be innocent, they would NOT need to be pardoned, they would be released. Every one knows that. Everyone that is, except YOU. You have not been getting "all the conversation" from those off duty cops that come into the gun store you work in. You obviously missed some of the key components to NEW EVIDENCE in a case, and PRESIDENTIAL PARDONS. By the way. Presidential Pardons are a matter of PUBLIC RECORD. They are available to ANYONE, uh, well almost. Evidently not to you.

P.S. There Preban. I didn't ask why he hadn't pardoned other people. I said he SHOULD PARDON those two Border Patrol Agents that you know so much about. If your gonna paraphrase me, at least get THAT right. It is after all right in front of you.

frogjake · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2008, 07:00:51 PM »

I have stated before that I think it stinks that the law enforcement are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I know nothing of the case being spoke of. I am just speaking from what you have interjected. I think it's a crying shame that those to BP officers are in jail right now and that piece of rat dung dealer is out free to do what he will. I also agree that if they would have sent him to the hacienda in the sky (or hell) that we wouldn't be even be talking about it. Maybe a little more range time is the call of the day for these defenders of the Border.

Dee · « **Reply #20 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:51:01 AM »

frogjake, this piece of trash from Mexico has been busted AGAIN this month for drug smuggleing into OUR country, yet some liberals like one whom posted on this thread DEFEND HIM, against the Agents.
What does that tell ya? That's how stuff like this happens. He goes free to sell dope to our youth, and the Agents go to jail, and Americans whom don't have a clue, DEFEND HIM.

ironglow · « **Reply #21 on:** January 02, 2008, 04:42:23 AM »

Not just a pardon, but complete exoneration, all back pay, a promotion for shooting scum where he needed it..and a year off with pay to re-cement their family ties..

This is the WORST decision bush has made that I know of..and I am bewildered just why he persists in prolonging the error !

The judge in the case should be jailed for concealing exculpatory evidence ! He and Mike Nifong should share a cell..along with the lying pig that Nifong catered to !

Dee · « **Reply #22 on:** January 02, 2008, 07:19:07 AM »

Whoa! ironglow, if we lived closer I'd buy ya a cup of coffee, and take ya on a hog hunt. We're battin in the same lineup.

frogjake · « **Reply #23 on:** January 02, 2008, 08:10:00 AM »

being a 20 year retired vetran I am not used to questioning the President and certainly not in a public forum due to reprocussions from such. Is there a way to contact the President on this matter and actually be heard? Also, is there a way to get all the info pertaining to this case. I have very little experience in this stuff and I am attempting to learn more so I can research on my own. frogjake

Dee · « **Reply #24 on:** January 02, 2008, 09:38:14 AM »

Pardons are a matter of public record, and can be looked at by doing a search for each president or governor for that matter. Do a search on the two BP Agents by their names, along with the smuggler, and you can get most of the details. They have been made public down here in Texas, and if one looks carefully at the sources, you can get an accurate account of the events.
As far as contacting the President, he has been contacted by virtually every group in the United States concerning this matter and chooses to ignore it. He does not want to admit that we need to not only release these two Agents but, also put up a fence. You see, he is FOR the AU of the future. The European Union is the role model for what he and many of our politicians want. The North American Union. Where we, Canada, and Mexico have NO BORDERS, and eventually become one country. He would NEVER do anything to risk upsetting their goals, and his lackadaisical attitude toward this and other border issues is a result of this long range plan, which gets closer each day.

ironglow · « **Reply #25 on:** January 02, 2008, 09:50:41 AM »

That "pardons" thing is getting to be a sad joke, judging by the last batch of drug pushers, flim-flam men and scurrilous characters freed by the last President !

I guess it is the last chance these guys have of helping "friends" before they take their "retirement"..

BTW: Dee, if I were closer I'd gladly take that hog hunt..and buy you the coffee..

frogjake · « **Reply #26 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:33:43 PM »

Dee, thanks for the info on getting that information.

rex6666 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2008, 03:46:31 AM »

It is my understanding that this drug dealer was given immunity, to testify agianst thr 2 bp
agents and before the trial he was using his immunity to haul drugs across the border,
the only mistake(and a big one) the agents made was bad gun control, DEAD SUMGLERS
TELL NO LIES.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2008, 08:01:08 AM »

dee,

I am wondering where you do the search on your names, exactly who is quoting your information. Is it a news journalist,news room, web blog. I mean really have you read the PSI on either one of those to border patrol agents. Have you read any of the courts findings, the investigation in to the shooting, the states investigations and reports. I mean really dee, have you. Your quoted earlier using this word as a derogatory statement "ASS UMPT ION". That is all you are and have!!!!!!!! You stated it perfect. If the shooting was legit, why did they cover it up. Why did they hide the fact that they discharged there firearms. Why don't you state, that about them either. I find it hard to believe that the Government would convict, and sentence them to jail if they did not brake the law. They went to jail for covering up the fact that they discharged there weapons and then covered up shooting someone. Even if he was a drug dealer they did not know that before, and he did not shoot at them. You only report half the truth to make your side look better. Give all the evidence. If you want that in your city, cops allowed to go around un-checked shooting what ever they want go ahead.

And dee I don't know it all. But I also don't leave out key facts, like the agents covered up the shooting. WHY did they DO this. I guess you forgot to put that in your statement so I guess you know it all. You just chose to leave out the really important information as to what they went to jail for.

I guess next your gonna say that was OK because the guy that they shot at was a drug dealer. So I guess all the cops in your city should put down there guns and just allow the vigilantes to take over. Probably less accidental discharges in your city that way teacher.

Now to anyone who might take my statements as me not wanting to protect the border, my theory, make it legal to shoot anyone on the spot who crosses that border with out permission. To me it should be classified as an act of war and invasion.

We have rules for the United States and they should be followed. That is was makes our (my) country the greatest country in the world.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2008, 08:14:38 AM »

to show my home work and the fact that I have actually went to the Dept of Texas to find my information here you go Dee. They filed false reports and covered up evidence. How do you think Your Police deptartment would have like that if one of your own had done it. The only thing that the government did wrong in this was give the drug dealer a pardon. They should have hung him.

U.S. Department of Justice
U.S. Attorney’s Office
Western District of Texas
Johnny Sutton, U.S. Attorney FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Shana Jones, Special Assistant Daryl Fields, Public Information Officer (210) 384-7452 January 10, 2007

STATEMENT OF U. S. ATTORNEY JOHNNY SUTTON TO ALLEGATIONS OF WRONGFUL PROSECUTION OF BORDER PATROL AGENTS COMPEAN AND RAMOS In response to the allegation that these agents were prosecuted for just doing their job, nothing could be further from the truth. These agents shot someone who they knew to be unarmed and running away. They destroyed evidence, covered up a crime scene and then filed false reports about what happened. It is shocking that there are people who believe it is okay for agents to shoot an unarmed suspect who is running away. The law recognizes that agents will make mistakes and the government takes responsibility for good faith mistakes made in the line of duty. But no agent is given license to willfully shoot an unarmed, fleeing suspect in the back simply because the job is difficult, dangerous or important. My job and that of federal prosecutors is to enforce the laws the best we can. If law enforcement officers break the law, they have to face the consequences just as anyone else. Agents Compean and Ramos were unanimously found guilty by a jury in a United States Federal District Court after a trial that lasted more than two and a half weeks. Both agents told their stories from the witness stand and had full opportunities to explain their version of events and to offer their own evidence. The jury heard everything including their claims of self defense. The jury did not believe their stories because they were not true. In this case, the evidence showed that around 1:00 p.m.(not in the middle of the night) Aldrete , the Mexican alien, initially ran from the agents, but attempted to surrender with his empty hands raised over his head after Agent Compean pointed his shotgun at him. When Agent Compean tried to push Aldrete to the ground with the butt of his shotgun Agent Compean tripped and fell. Aldrete then took off running again toward the Rio Grande River and Mexico. Compean chased Aldrete firing at him with his pistol fourteen times, pausing once to reload and then shoot some more. Agent Ramos shot once and struck Aldrete in the buttocks. Neither agent made any further effort to apprehend him. After the shooting, they lied to their supervisors about the shooting, picked up and threw away the fired shell casings and filed a false investigative report leaving out any mention of the confrontation with Aldrete. If Compean and Ramos truly believed Aldrete was a threat, why did they abandon him after shooting him? And if they truly believed the shooting was justified, why did they not report it, leave the scene undisturbed, and let the investigation absolve them? The answers to these questions are simple. The agents knew that Aldrete did not pose a threat as he fled, they knew the shooting was unjustified and unlawful, and they knew an investigation would incriminate them. So they chose to cover up their crimes. In America, law enforcement officers do not get to shoot unarmed suspects who are running away, lie about it to their supervisors and file official reports that are false. That is a crime and prosecutors cannot look the other way. ###