Presidential Pardons & Justice

[SHOOTALL]

pardons are payback for some favor ! often the person getting the pardon has nothing to do with the reason for the pardon , just somebody owed a debt or wanted someone to owe them !
now if the system didn't make it necessary to fabricate events the they wouldn't be fabricated ! by either side ! haven't ya'll noticed its the American way now , lie to cover your backside ! when did flight means guilt go out of fashion ?
the abuse of the legal system today will most likely be the end of our society as we know it ! shame !
a pardon should be issued to help sustain the legal system say in the case of wrongful imprisonment or such not payback or political gain ! will Watergate ever go away ?

[Prebanpaul]

remember 12 US citizens heard their argument.  All 12 citizens who heard all the evidence represented the united states and found them guilty. There was not one who did not.   

Dee will try and argue his suppression of evidence and anything else he can.  Bottom line is that a federal agent Covered up a shooting and went to jail for it.

shoot all    I agree with you so much.  It is all about who owes who what.  Our government should be downsized considerably.  This would save millions of dollars in salary and allow faster and better decision to be made for the people of the US.

[ironglow]

  I have backed the President in many things..tax cuts, the war, the surge and most of his other programs.
   I didn't back him in trying to do business with Teddy Kennedy and I don't back him in this case ! Neither do many other real Republicans/conservatives..
   
    Yes; the 12 convicted them..we still don't know where that jury was drawn from or what their personal motivations could be..anyone seen a breakdown ?

   Doesn't even matter what the breakdown was..if they were not given "the whole truth" ! I happen to be very conservative and I don't agree with what he has done in this case and many conservative people agree with me !
       
   www.eagleforum.org/2007/feb07/07-02-21.html           www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1799246/posts

          If you want to see a few dozen more important 7 erudite conservatives that see it this way also..just do a Google search for... < border guards, evidence witheld >

    Read & weep !

[Prebanpaul]

Please if their is an police officer out here or federal agent on here that thinks there should be no paper work performed after a shooting please let me know.  Any one in their right mind understands that even if your Boss tells you not to right paper work on a shooting you do so any ways.  That is a Joke IronGlow that nothing was put in a report.  You know as well As I do it is bogus. 

How about the part that was left out were they picked up the shell casings.  Maybe just maybe they left that part out to their supervisors.  And that is why the stated not to complete the report.

Here is the problem,  Hang the drug dealer and punish the border guards.  Now I dont agree with sentencing, it was to harsh.  But there was definelty something being covered up by the border guards.

[ironglow]

 The border guards didn't report the incident..punish them for that..A disciplinary report, suspension etc..

  ..But to give a repeat drug smuggler immunity just so they can hang a couple border guards for not filing a report..does sound like something fishy, but not  on the
   border guard's parts !
    The conviction would sound more credible if the administration were punishing the illegal border crashers that are caught every day. The Democrats would have a good election year complaint here..but they are worse than the administration ! they want to give the ILLEGALS drivers licenses, amnesty and voting rights..
  Again; it seems clear the judge is a "Nifong type" and should end up in jail himself ! He just fosters more distrust of our "legal" system..(I hesitate to call it a JUSTICE system)

  As I said earlier, I have backed Pres Bush on almost everything he has done, but on this one he has dropped the ball. Scooter Libby was PROVEN guilty also..but he got a pardon, and the two border guards were under a lot greater pressure with much less time to make a grave decision...
  The Scooter spent his time protected in a federal prison..the two border guards were put immediately into the general population of a state prison ..where the authorities HAD to know they would be attacked..and they were..

   If the fence had been built..as was promised the American public, the guards may not have had to make that hard choice..perhaps every politician that promised a secure border and the welched out..should spend time in Sheriff Joe's tent city.

   A lot of money involved when a smuggler brings drugs by the half ton across the border..then, when the "authorities" protect the border-jumping drug smuggler while jailing border guards..a certain ill odor arises.

   Bush has been right on most things..but here he could not have been more wrong..take that from someone who contributed regularly to both his Presidential campaigns !

  No point in looking to the Democrats they would be worse yet, they have proven they will sell our sovereignty to the Chinese ..among others..

   There is a lot of shame to go around..on the politicians... OF ALL STRIPES..

[Dee]

After 20 years of of L.E., I am fully aware of the necessity of ACCURATE reports, and have not at any time defended the ALLEDGED cover up. IT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
It is however, remarkable, that Homeland Security would go to such lengths as to travel to Mexico, contact the drug smuggler, and cut an immunity deal with him, just to prosecute two Border Patrol Agent, BUT WILL "NOT" SHUT DOWN THE BORDERS.
Given the political correctness of the present environment in this country, it is also no wonder, that these two agents did what they were alleged to have done.
HOWEVER! The "ISSUE REMAINS" that they let a drug smuggler go, prosecuted to AMERICAN AGENTS and put them into prison, and the President mean while PARDONS, drug dealer, moonshiners, BANK ROBBERS, and on and on, and cannot pardon to Border Patrol Agents. Even Fox News one of Bush's biggest supporters has questioned the LOGIC behind this.
President Bush has turned a deaf ear to the American people in regards to border security, and it is well know that the Border Patrol, while under maned, under funded, "over worked, and under the scrutiny of EVERYONE, is under a huge amount of pressure to perform it's duty. THEY SHOULD BE PARDONED.

[magooch]

I'm guessing that parts--maybe vast parts of the border are still not adequately protected, but lest anyone think that nothing has changed in the past few years in that regard, I would invite you to travel to some of the border areas and check it out.  I'm sitting in Yuma, Arizona as I type this and I can assure you that things have changed a lot.  Does that mean that the illegal invasion has been staunched--no.  Do I think that if we had sKerry as our President we would long since have stopped the invasion--not no, but hell no. 

President Bush has disappointed me on several issues, but on many more he has more than held up his end.  On taxes alone, his initiatives have more than made up for a ton of Awwshits.  What we should hope for now is that we get Mr. Perfect for President this next time around.  Anyone want to bet how tight the borders will be if the zebra, the bithch, or the schister gets in?

[bulzaye]

I was listening to sean hannity on the radio on the way home. He was interviewing Mike Huckabee.  He was being grilled about all his pardons and commutations.  He said if elected president the first thing he would do is pardon these 2 agents and it is horrible when people go to jail for doing their jobs.  I dont know much about this guy as for me it is way too early to get involved. But, I will look into him and form an opinion With that statement, he sure got my attention and respect.

[ironglow]

  A good place to start;
        Give all illegals just 60 days to get proper alien/worker identity, so we can keep track of them. Then, place a heavy fine on employers that hire illegals, followed by serious jail time for repeat offenders...take away the honey, and the bees won't swarm in !
  When an illegal is caught at the border, or anywhere else..detain them in a tent city for 90 days before shipping them back..as soon as they realize that border-jumping is not just a revolving door where they can "try again tomorrow"..but three full months of "no work-no pay", they may not want to try again and accrue a full half year with no dinero..

[deltecs]

  A good place to start;
        Give all illegals just 60 days to get proper alien/worker identity, so we can keep track of them. Then, place a heavy fine on employers that hire illegals, followed by serious jail time for repeat offenders...take away the honey, and the bees won't swarm in !
  When an illegal is caught at the border, or anywhere else..detain them in a tent city for 90 days before shipping them back..as soon as they realize that border-jumping is not just a revolving door where they can "try again tomorrow"..but three full months of "no work-no pay", they may not want to try again and accrue a full half year with no dinero..

Let's look at the problem with logic instead of emotion.  
1. We have 12,000,000 illegals in the US.
2. The cost of these illegals has increased costs and/or reductions in revenue from education, welfare, medical, social security, income tax, job loss, excesses in government expenses due bilingual printing etc., incarceration costs, and court cases.  
3. Ok, let's give all illegals 60 days to register as illegals and 60 days for all companies who employ illegals to register.  Deport illegals after registration.  Mandatory DNA samples and fingerprints.
4. All illegals in violation of the 60 day registration period are subject to prosecution on multiple charges of income tax evasion, unlawful entry, and any other violation of federal laws.  Mandate a minimum sentence for all violators for each charge to run consecutively.  Deport after serving sentence.  
5. All corporate officers, company owners, DBA's, area managers, trustees, or any person in authority to hire or fire, of any illegal found working after the registration period must serve the same sentence as the illegal with the additional charge of conspiracy to commit a crime.  It is unlawful to hire illegals. Doing so after the registration period constitutes a conspiracy.
6. Upon 2 nd conviction, management personnel as described to receive consecutive maximum sentences with no parole, permanent loss of business license, and removal of all citizen rights, and another charge of conspiracy to commit a crime.  $500,000 fine for each offense.  All charges to be felonious.  Illegals get consecutive maximum sentences for all violations of federal law with the added charge of conspiracy to commit a crime.  No parole.  Deport after serving sentence.  All assets seized to pay for incarceration.  Lifetime ban on request for citizenship.
7. No children born of illegals may be US citizens by birthright.
8. A 20 year moratorium ban against citizenship by all applicants from anywhere for any reason including political asylum.
9. Alien education permits must maintain 2.5 average in all subjects and be a full time student with a declared major.
10. Any illegal alien prosecuted in commission of other crimes to serve maximum sentence and automatically becomes 2 nd offender.

Remember, these are illegal aliens and not aliens in compliance with immigration law.  The cost of deportation and incarceration are less than the current situation.  

[magooch]

Why screw around with all the niceties; just shoot the bastards that are trying to sneak in and offer a $100 reward for each invader who is turned in.

[Dee]

deltecs whom is going to pay for all this stuff your talking about. The actual number of illegals is closer to 20,000,000, and they are ALREADY draining the system.
This isn't about emotion. This is about the U.S. loosing it sovereignty, and going flat ass broke in the process. These folks have shown that they have NO REGARD for out laws, they come in illegally, they STEAL IDENTITIES, they get on social services, they go to hospital emergency rooms for such things as check ups and colds, and they mail a majority of their income back to Mexico, they refuse to insure their junk cars, they move in multiple families into housing ruining property values of neighborhoods, and they refuse to disseminate into society by learning our customs, and our language. And THEN, they want US to make special allowances so they can celebrate MEXICAN HOLLIDAYS.
GIVE ME A BREAK!
As far as I am concerned the Agents should have FREE REIGN to shoot on sight any ADULTS sneaking (INVADING) into our country. They are not your buddy, they are your enemy. They are ruining the economy of YOUR COUNTRY, plain and simple. When that is done, THEN YOU will get emotional.

[deltecs]

deltecs whom is going to pay for all this stuff your talking about. The actual number of illegals is closer to 20,000,000, and they are ALREADY draining the system.
This isn't about emotion. This is about the U.S. loosing it sovereignty, and going flat ass broke in the process. These folks have shown that they have NO REGARD for out laws, they come in illegally, they STEAL IDENTITIES, they get on social services, they go to hospital emergency rooms for such things as check ups and colds, and they mail a majority of their income back to Mexico, they refuse to insure their junk cars, they move in multiple families into housing ruining property values of neighborhoods, and they refuse to disseminate into society by learning our customs, and our language. And THEN, they want US to make special allowances so they can celebrate MEXICAN HOLLIDAYS.
GIVE ME A BREAK!
As far as I am concerned the Agents should have FREE REIGN to shoot on sight any ADULTS sneaking (INVADING) into our country. They are not your buddy, they are your enemy. They are ruining the economy of YOUR COUNTRY, plain and simple. When that is done, THEN YOU will get emotional.

I'm in agreement with you, it is not emotional.  As for who is going to pay for all this.  You are right in that they are already draining the system.  What do you do?  It is one thing to shoot them coming into the country but now that they are here, do you propose the same thing?  That isn't the solution to prevent more economical loss.  The government would spend billions in prosecuting those who shot them.  And they still would be a drain on the economy.  Look at the post.  The lost revenue gained by deportment alone would offset much of the cost of deportation.  Seizure of all assets for repeat offenders and fines would contribute more toward this expense.  The gain in lost wages sent to foreign countries from illegals to their families there would be put back into American circulation, thus lowing the unemployment rate and forcing employers to pay decent wages for labor.  So, the cost of goods increase.  The wages would too, to be competitive.  I agree they are our enemy, which is why I proposed a moratorium on legal immigration for 20 years.  This would permit stabilization of our economy, reduce preferential immigration, and put our focus back on correction to our social give away programs and reduce government spending.  The costs of illegals are increasing daily and are not going to go away without drastic measures to reduce immigration in general and get back to fundamental and constructionist govern-ism. 

[Dee]

deltecs, I think the obvious way is, to make it illegal, to house, transport, or employ ANY illegal alien. If they cannot produce legitimate papers, deport them. If they do not have money, and the illness is not life threatening, and they cannot produce visas, refuse treatment at hospitals.
I have family in the Claremore, Tulsa Ok. area and when their law (described above) went into effect, Tulsa, Oklahoma, lost in excess of 25,000 illegals in a single week. It was on ALL the local news and as far as down here in the Dallas-Ft. Worth, Tx. area. This is a VERY effective way of ridding the United States of illegals. If there is no work, they will go home or to Canada on their own. To hell with programs, pass a law like Oklahoma, and Arizona, and watch the exodus.
My family said it was PLEASANTLY ODD, to walk into a store such as Wal-Mart, and not see Mexican illegals, or hear Spanish being spoken. Their crime rate has gone down also, although I have no stats on the percentage.

[deltecs]

deltecs, I think the obvious way is, to make it illegal, to house, transport, or employ ANY illegal alien. If they cannot produce legitimate papers, deport them. If they do not have money, and the illness is not life threatening, and they cannot produce visas, refuse treatment at hospitals.
I have family in the Claremore, Tulsa Ok. area and when their law (described above) went into effect, Tulsa, Oklahoma, lost in excess of 25,000 illegals in a single week. It was on ALL the local news and as far as down here in the Dallas-Ft. Worth, Tx. area. This is a VERY effective way of ridding the United States of illegals. If there is no work, they will go home or to Canada on their own. To hell with programs, pass a law like Oklahoma, and Arizona, and watch the exodus.
My family said it was PLEASANTLY ODD, to walk into a store such as Wal-Mart, and not see Mexican illegals, or hear Spanish being spoken. Their crime rate has gone down also, although I have no stats on the percentage.

I've no problem with that.  My suggestion just went further.  Now to get the rest of the nation on board.  Alaska too.

[280shooter]

Bush and alot of politicians do not want the border secured, evidenced by the fact that Kay Bailey Hutchison inserted a rider into the Omnibus Spending Bill to effectively de-fund the border fence by leaving it to the discretion of the head of Homeland Security as to how the money is spent. It appears to me that the Border Patrol has been set up by the Pols as a fall guy similar to how businessmen are set up. We had a case in Idaho a few years back, where an orchard owner decided to go beyond requiring Photo ID and SS number for hiring. He wanted proof of citizenship and what he got was over $10,000 in legal bills for a discrimination suit. Everyone blames businesses for hiring, while not understanding that the politicians set them up for plausible deniability. They talk a good story, but the bottom line is that neither party is interested in stopping the invasion. It has been several years since I had anything to do with hiring. When I did, Social Security would only tell us if the number was good. They would not tell us if the number and name matched. The politicians set it up that way so that when the heat is turned up they can shift the blame. I fully understand that there are businesses that intentionally hire illegals, but certainly not the majority.  We are now in a situation where the servant has become the master. They were pretty much forced into passing the Border Fence legislation last year, but they turn around and quietly screwed us this year. Where have the true conservatives gone?

[ironglow]

  Preban did his homework best he could but let's keep this in mind..he gave full weight to the opinion of Johnny Sutton..who in effect, was protecting the perp.
  I feel safe in concluding that one would get a very different picture from the attorney who is trying to protect the border guards..
  In today's legal climate accepting only Sutton's statement is tantamount to learning all about the OJ Simpson trial by only taking the statements offered by Johnny Cochran and Mark Gerigos.

[Dee]

ironglow, you are dead on in your analogy. Political Correctness has sent a lot of innocent folks to jail in the last few years, and released some real dogs.
If you get drunk and run over some one, you go to jail. If some big name runs a car off a bridge, and drowns a girl, and he calls his lawyers, and sobers up, and THEN calls the police. He gets RE ELECTED to the Senate. And the beat goes on.

[ironglow]

  Right on Dee..this I can guarantee..by jailing our law officers and letting a drug-runner walk, Washington has sent a message that in any confrontation, drug-runners will be protected while our own law officers will be "worked over".

[Dee]

ironglow, can you imagine ANYONE defending the government for GIVING IMMUNITY to a foreign drug smuggler in order to prosecute two AMERICAN law enforcement officers for shooting said drug smuggler (did I mention that he was from another country?) in the butt? I say any drug smuggler caught crossing the border into the United States with a load of dope should be shot on sight!  The piece of trash is selling nothing but heart ache and misery, and is merely taking up valuable space and wasting precious oxygen. That's my opinion and know one has to agree with it, but I think they should put a thousand dollar bounty on drug smugglers ESPECIALLY those from other countries DEAD OR ALIVE.

[ironglow]

..There is another message being sent to the border agents..."If you have to shoot a drug smuggler, shoot him in the head instead of the butt..he then can't be given immunity to testify against you " !

[SHOOTALL]

ok lets piss off a bunch of PC folks !
allow the American public to defend them selves , have a call to arms or what ever the correct name is and lets help out !
75 million gun owners should be able to round up 20 million illegals and heard um south !
call it the trail of tacos !

[Dee]

ok lets piss off a bunch of PC folks !
allow the American public to defend them selves , have a call to arms or what ever the correct name is and lets help out !
75 million gun owners should be able to round up 20 million illegals and heard um south !
call it the trail of tacos !

I suppose we could house them during the roundup at TACO VILLA!

[ironglow]

   An interesting news account concerning US attorney Sutton:

    www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58243

       This unique method of smuggling drugs is a favorite by illegals..

[SHOOTALL]

one has to ask , how can a group get DRI LIC , GREEN card , SS card and others perfect and can't get the stripes right on a truck ?
sounds like if the politicians get out the way the rank and file can take care of the problem !

[rk4570]

Dee, Ironglow & all,

I just read this link & I can agree that is one unique method of smuggling drugs into this country!

Lets not forget that the problem of Drugs and Illegals has been going on for many years , under the terms of many presidents & congressmen.
 
The question is WHY?

 I firmly believe that these problems are only part of the program to take over this Country and the American Middle Class. I can see no other answer, CAN ANY OF YOU?  

[Dee]

Nope! Sure can't.

[SHOOTALL]

me thinks the push by some to end the 2nd amendment is they know the middle class is close to getting really pissed !

[DDelle338]

ok lets piss off a bunch of PC folks !
allow the American public to defend them selves , have a call to arms or what ever the correct name is and lets help out !
75 million gun owners should be able to round up 20 million illegals and heard um south !
call it the trail of tacos !

  I get another 5 days vacation time this year, I'd spend it on that kind of round-up.
  I used to have a favorite fish'n hole on the Colorado River just across from Algodones Mexico. One evening as I was fishing a group of six illegals started to cross the river and I decided to have some fun with my little Marlin .22. I was hitting the water about a foot to the right of them. (I know it wasn't safe) (didn't care) After I landed about 7 or 8 rounds next to them they turned around and went back the way they came. Just after I put my rifle down, and turned to get a drink from the cooler there was a B.P. Agent standing there. I figured I was screwed! He asked what I was doing. I said just doing some plinking till the fish start biting. He told me he thought I needed to adjust my sights about 12 inches left, and wished me a good evening as he left.
  I saw him several times after that, he always asked if the fishing was still slow at my fishing hole. I'd just return his grin with one of my own and say "some times".
  Need more agents like that and less of the P.C. crowd.
 
   magooch, There were always some huge bass in that hole if you can find it. Get yourself some Water Dogs and have a good time.

[magooch]

Thanks for the invite, but I'm not in Yuma anymore.  We just stopped there for a couple of days on our way home.  Anyway, I don't fish, but I sure would join you in plinking if I lived down there.