Author Topic: not firing all the time? (Read 1712 times)

tigmaned · « **on:** December 31, 2007, 09:49:13 AM »

i have a new to me Contender frame and a 22lr 10" barrel. well i took her to the range today and it was not firing all the time? some time i would open up the action and could hardly see a indent in the shell and other time it would fire? its in the easy open frame time frame but from other contender frame i have had in the past this was seems maybe loose or REAL easy to open in the trigger guard part that you pull to open the barrel? but not sure thats the cause of this? are there any new springs i should get to try and fix this or is this a firing pin issue.
thanks

chazgin · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2008, 05:11:09 AM »

The hammer spring on Contenders tends to weaken with age. You can get these from T/C direct or other suppliers of parts. Replacing it is not hard just tricky. You need a guide pin to install the new spring, a vise (to hold the frame), and three hands, but it can be done with patience. I had to do it after my Tender started showing inconsistent primer hits, solved the problem.

Cossack2 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2008, 11:00:30 AM »

Could be the ammo too. The thickness of the rim varies somewhat. I found that Velocitors have thick rims and Winchesters are less so when working on a neighbor's 22 that wouldn't shoot like yours.

Jim Stacy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2008, 05:45:48 PM »

22's sometime have a build up of wax and powder fouling at the back of the chamber . Take a brush and some solvent to the chamber area and see if the rims seat any more consistently?

tigmaned · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:35:45 AM »

i am thinking some thing is weak? some times it sounded funny when i pulled the trigger? should the trigger guard be real easy to pull when you want to open the frame, like almost to easy? it seems like it wants to open with the slightest touch. will T/C repair this for free still or are those days gone since S&W took them over?

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2008, 03:55:05 AM »

Clean it thoroughly and make sure you are closing it securely with a bit of a snap. Most likely the problem will go away.

tigmaned · « **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2008, 04:36:12 AM »

thats a sound idea, but i am thinking about putting new springs in, but not sure wheres the best place to get them? from T/C.

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2008, 04:45:51 AM »

That's fine but I think the idea that springs need to be replaced so often is a mistaken one. In all the years and all the tens of thousands of rounds I've fired in TCs I've needed to replace a spring exactly ONCE. That was my fault I believe. I replaced a hammer spring with an aftermarket spring and it broke. I stuck the factory spring back and it never failed.

I have replaced the trigger springs to lighten trigger pull in some but that's it. I've never broke another and never seen one in a gun of mine that needed it to shoot properly. Most of the instances like yours that I've had and seen others around me have were cured by a good cleaning and properly relubing it and then making sure it was closely firmly. Some guns just don't seem to like to be closed gently and still function. I suspect that's a function of the way the bolts fit into the frame and could likely be cured by replacing with properly fitted ones but it's not that big a deal to just get into the habit of snapping it shut with an extra bit of effort.

If springs make you happy go for it but it's highly unlikely that they are needed.

tigmaned · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2008, 12:52:55 PM »

i am tiring to remember my other contender frame and if it did this. but when i pull the trigger on this frame i can almost activate the barrel opening process. what i mean when i pull and hold the trigger the trigger guard starts to lower at the same time. is this o.k.? trust me if i don't need to work on it or change springs i am fine, but?

tigmaned · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2008, 06:09:25 AM »

with 22lr barrel in stalled and closed i could get a .004 feeler gage in, is that to much? as GB said i cleaned my frame with out taking it apart since i have no manual. i am not sure this is right but i even when i pull the trigger i can almost activate the barrel opening process.

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2008, 06:39:14 AM »

Kinda sounds like it's not locking up properly. Dunno if it's a bolt problem or a frame problem but chances are if it does it with several barrels it's the frame. The WHY of that is best decided at TC in my opinion unless it's something obvious in looking it over.

Cossack2 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2008, 04:16:46 AM »

I agree with Bill, sounds like a lock up issue. Sounds like the bolt isn't compatible with the frame. If it's an older barrel with the solid bolt that may be what's doing it. I've had good service from this site. http://www.bellmtcs.com/

tigmaned · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2008, 04:34:35 AM »

i only have one barrel at this time??? sadly still deciding on the next one.
but this 22lr barrel that misfired some of the time has the two piece bolt. dose anyone have a picture of which part of the bolt to mod so it will lock up better. i am thinking the top right, but i don't want to make it worse. what about the getting a new or stronger spring for the trigger guard that opens the barrel, that still seems way to easy to do?
any web site that show this?

Cossack2 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2008, 05:49:28 AM »

Go to the site I mentioned, it has complete instructions on taking frame apart for changing out trigger strings and show how the other springs are removed. I would NOT start filing on the bolt if it were me. A two piece bolt is not likely causing problems. I'd disassemble, clean and lube first. Once you learn how to take the gun apart you could shim or or stretch the 'trigger guard spring" giving it more force to see if it's causing the problem. There may be other issues however, the gun should not go off at all if it's not locked up, the hammer block should prevent that from happening. But it functions off a rather small spring too and crud could prevent it from functioning.
I did have a problem when matching a first generation frame with a third generation barrel. But that was excessive headspace causing my 17 Remington cases to fail prematurely.

tigmaned · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2008, 12:37:59 PM »

GBO blocked the site??

tigmaned · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2008, 12:53:44 AM »

took my contender to the range on Saturday, not as bad as before i cleaned it up some but she's still miss fires some times. but if i open up the action and spin the bullet a little close it up again and it fires? so it could still be lock up, or hammer spring?

30HERRETT · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2008, 02:46:14 AM »

Try a different pin that holds the barrel on to the frame . Different size pins move the barrel front and back by only a couple of thousands and give you a better lock up .

tigmaned · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2008, 06:01:53 AM »

30
yeah i did that too, i had some stock at work that's a little closer in size to .375 then the factory t/c pin. i know Bill didn't think so but could this be weak hammer spring?

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2008, 11:42:36 AM »

Yeah it "could be" I'll grant you that. But I don't think so since I've yet to ever seen a hammer spring get weak and fail to fire as a result. I've been messing around with these things since not so long after they came out and have shot them and shot with others shooting them since the early to mid 70s I guess. I'm yet to see a weak spring present the problem.

I still think your real problem is an incomplete lock up. Have you tried slamming it closed with some extra force? If so does that or does that not stop the failure to fire? Other than in cases with .35 Remington barrels that just seem to have major issues way too often the slamming seems to cure it which tells me you're failing to get full lock up but the lock up is adequate to by pass the disconnect to allow the firing pin to hit just not with full force.

Could a super strong after market pin over come that and yet not fix the lock up problem? Maybe I'd not say it never could but I still don't really think even if it did that the spring was really the problem and in my experience after market extra strength springs cause more problems than they fix and also break more frequently.

Please understand I'm NOT a gunsmith have never pretended to be or claimed to be a gunsmith. I have done a fair bit of work on my own guns and have had a lot of work done on them by folks who are gunsmiths. I have had a lot of experience messing around with the TCs over the years and seen a lot of problems and either fixed or had fixed by someone else most of the things that go wrong with them. The hammer spring replacement is a job I just absolutely will never ever again do myself. I've done it and had little problem but that last one I did ran my frustration level so high I came really close to just tossing it in the trash before it finally fell into place. That's kinda the same way I feel about the Ruger semiautos. I'll NEVER EVER take one apart again. I don't have the patience for either job at this point in my life.

rural17 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2008, 12:09:06 PM »

Just got done shooting my tender 14" SS 22lr Match barrel when I would slam it shut it would not cock, when I closed it with less force it cocked and shot just fine, But my 23" 45/70 is the opposite, slam it hard or it won't lock up?

Just my 2 cents Jeff

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2008, 12:13:41 PM »

Yup seen that often too. It's a sign of a trigger/action job done by someone who doesn't understand how the Contender works. My cousin worked on his and "thinks" he has the best action job ever. Half the time no matter how carefully he closes it the sear bumps off and it will not fire.

It's a sign of too little sear engagement and the shock of closing actually fires it or disconnects the sear from trigger. It means you need to adjust that little screw to provide better sear engagement. Might also mean someone has stoned it and messed up the geometry of the sear/trigger engagement surfaces.

I will not have a gun that does that. IT's not safe.

It does however mean yours is locking up properly as all should but sadly don't.

rural17 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2008, 01:20:42 PM »

Graybeard, Thanks for the help I bought this new about 6 or7 years ago so I'll play around with the little screw and see what happens. The frame itself probably only has only shot 200 rounds 80 of which were from the 45/70 so I havn't messed with trigger at all. I think I got so used to slamming the barrel up on the 45/70 I forgot the 14" 22lr was so much lighter. Thanks Again

Jeff

chazgin · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2008, 04:23:52 PM »

Graybeard,

I have had a hammer spring weaken over time, it does not fail as a constant problem but intermittently. Mine was not firing large rifle primers on a consistent basis. Went through all kinds of hoops with barrels and primers. Finally took the plunge and replaced it. Problem instantly solved therefore = weak spring. You may be frustrated with doing this but I bet it doesn't equal my frustration in having to send a gun out and wait for several months to fix a 30 min problem. It's not that hard to do yourself

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2008, 07:19:50 PM »

Quote

It's not that hard to do yourself

So some folks tell me.

In fact that's kinda what I thought myself the FIRST time I did it when I replaced a factory spring with one from a Bullseye kit. But then when that one broke after a few hundred rounds only had been fired and I decided to put the factory spring back wow it was frustration city.

Like I said I'll never do that again.

tigmaned · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2008, 12:31:57 AM »

are there any books out there that give a little heads up on which pin to push out first or dose it matter, just start pushing pins out? the frame is pretty small i can't see it being that hard?? but you never know! i may spray some more brake free in side everything and try it again, it got better from last time i did it.

chazgin · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2008, 02:18:29 AM »

tig,

Get an exploded parts view. You will see then that the only pin to push out is the one that holds the hammer spring in place. You will need another pin or drill bit of the same diameter to act as a guide when replacing the spring. In other other words, push the drill bit in from the other side to align the hammer spring. You then push the drill bit out as you insert the pin. Patience is required here! You also need to secure the frame in a padded vise.

Lanny · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2008, 03:18:28 PM »

Tig....Replacing the Hammer spring is not that hard if you have a SLAVE PIN...
Takes about ten minutes......The slave pin should be 3/8 in length and 3/16
in diameter just enough to hold the spring in the hammer while you drop it
in the frame...and then when you have it lined up push the slave pin through
with the regular pin....Hope this helps

tigmaned · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2008, 12:46:15 AM »

i have been searching for a good exploded view off the net, nothing that good so far. i guess this is a hot topic, over 450 have looked at this post.

Graybeard · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2008, 09:15:02 AM »

tigmaned · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2008, 04:41:07 PM »

GB
got one of the frame?