Stainless barrels and freezing temperatures, Dangerous!!

[1longshot]

Hello all,

I read on Kreiger's (SP?) website that they recommend against using stainless barrels at near zero or below temperatures.  I have a fluted Remington LVSF in 308 that I shot last winter at these temperatures.  It was so cold that my breath was frosting up on the rear of the bolt and action.  I did not have any problems.  I am a little nervous that a high quality barrel manufacture is recommending this.  Does anyone have any information that can shed some light on this subject?  I am kind of nervous because most of my winter rifles that I shoot coyotes with are stainless. 

Thanks a bunch.

[Dixie Dude]

The only thing I can figure is stainless is harder than blue steel.  I read one article where a stainless barrel will shoot about twice as many rounds through it, 20,000 vs 10,000 on their tests, as blue steel to get the same wear on the rifling.  I guess being harder, it could crack or something in extreme cold.  However, also from what I read, a lot of Alaskans are using stainless for the damp conditions up there. 

[Chilachuck]

I'm in SE Alaska. Never heard of any problems.

I prefer stainless. Less rust (but now I've been reading up on painting barrels, that may become something I don't pay any attention to).

[Zachary]

Painting barrels might have some benefit, but it still has no effect on the INSIDE of the barrel which is probably MORE important.  I would imagine that any level of rust inside a barrel would adversely affect accuracy (not to mention permanently damage the barrel from the inside out).

Zachary

[beemanbeme]

 If I was using a Remington barrel, I think I'd ask them rather than relying on some specialty shop.  Maybe Kreiger barrels are more tender than Rems?   

[Zachary]

I think that most makers use the same grade stainless steel. 316 or 416?

Zachary

[ssghelmick]

Here is what I found on the subject:

From: Bart Bobbitt <bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Stainless Barrels vs. Cold Weather

Several arms companies have recently offered hunting rifles with a
stainless steel barrel.  Here's some cautionary information about
stainless steel barrels.

When the temperature goes down, stainless steel has less fatigue
resistance.  Its physical properties drop off with temperature.
There have been instances of stainless barrels in hunting rifles
bursting when the ambient temperature is around zero degrees, or
less.

Some custom barrel makers specifically caution against using their
stainless barrels in hunting rifles.  One (Krieger) doesn't even
make sporting/hunting barrels in stainless steel.  In a conversation
with B.J. Obermeyer some years ago, he told me that some of his
stainless barrels were installed in hunting rifles and used in
Alaska winter-time hunts.  Some of these barrels burst when fired.

Chrome-moly (i.e., type 4140 or 4150) barrels maintain their fatigue
resistance very well in really cold temperatures.  Stainless steel
(i.e, type 416R), typically used for rifle barrels, is the really
cold-weather culprit.

I'm wondering if anyone who has bought a new rifle with a stainless
steel barrel has noticed any cautions in printed material supplied
with the rifle.  Even more so, I'm wondering if rifle makers even
concern themselves with this issue.

BB

[ssghelmick]

I have more than a couple stainless guns, almost all have been fired in 0 degree temps or colder and I have had zero problems.

If you go to Lilja's FAQ page they dispel this theory as urban myth.

[30-06man]

I haven't had any problems with mine in low temps. Now saying that I live in the Southeast and I have only hunted one time and the windchill was 0 and I had no problems.

[giturgun]

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art137.htm

I am so mean sometimes. Good read on the metalurgical properties of stress on steel

[Chilachuck]

Zachary, the only time the inside of one of my barrels rusted was when I used a finger to dig some garbage out of a shotgun muzzle.

Outsides rust a lot more often.

[Dixie Dude]

I do not know where people get that stainless will rust.  I have a lot of guns.  I had a stainless rifle that my brother borrowed and he used camo tape on it.  It stayed taped up for 5-6 years.  I took all the old tape off, and it didn't have one rust spot.  I have had them sit in my safe for years with blue steel ones also.  The blue would show signs of rust if not taken out at least once a year and cleaned good.  My stainless never showed any signs of rust.  All I do on stainless is clean the bore and barrels after shooting them.  Blue ones take a lot more time and care.  I do know that stainless is harder, but in normal temperate climates, they are great. 

[Chilachuck]

Some types of stainless will show rust stains under certain conditions, like we have in SE Alaska (really took me by surprise when my pocket knife "rusted").

We'll have to get comments from someone who knows the different types of stainless to comment.

[woodchukhntr]

Not being the ultimate authority on stainless steel, but I work with it to some degree as an engineer, mainly 304 and 316.  Also as a shooter I have seen a lot of SS guns over the years.

Stainless steel will rust under some conditions.  Not anywhere as severely as carbon steel, but it will rust.  I recently was offered a 1970's S&W .357 stainless revolver that had a considerable amount of light rust and staining on it.  It had been in storage for a long time and had probably been put away without wiping fingerprints off it.

At work we had a stainless steel heat exchanger that started leaking water from numerous "pin holes".  Investigation showed that the pitting started from fine particles of steel wool that had become embedded on the surface when the surface was cleaned.

One of our vendors had done some beveling of pipes for a nuclear power plant.  The machined surfaces of the pipes could not be even touched by bare hands or carbon steel tools since that could cause corrosion.  They had to hire extra inspectors to ensure that those surfaces were not touched.

The stainless steel industry does not make the claim that their products will not rust, only that they resist corrosion., thus stain "less", not stain "free".

[jro45]

I've always heard that stainless needs the same care that a steel carbon needs .

[SHOOTALL]

SS will rust and the inside of a barrel is exposed to the harshest of all conditions , when you cut with a torch you are causing rapid oxidation ( better know as rusting ) . I see little difference in the torch and a cartridge being fired ! now try and cut a piece of stainless steel with a torch ! good luck ! but it will mess it up !
blue steels are in most cases more malleable and can stretch before bursting , I wonder if the harding process leaves stress in the bbl. ? may be it could be relieved ?

[30-06man]

I have stainless guns that will rust easily. I like some sort of weather shield on it though.

[Brithunter]

The only thing I can figure is stainless is harder than blue steel.  I read one article where a stainless barrel will shoot about twice as many rounds through it, 20,000 vs 10,000 on their tests, as blue steel to get the same wear on the rifling.  I guess being harder, it could crack or something in extreme cold.  However, also from what I read, a lot of Alaskans are using stainless for the damp conditions up there. 

   Hmm not sure I would agree that Stainless is harder, it's more resistant to errosion but on say the Rockwell scale, I doubt it's harder. When machining it some grade seem more abrasive to tools but that is not a sign of hardness as pure copper is also very abasive to tooling.

[Dixie Dude]

Stainless steel knives take longer to get a good edge when sharpening than carbon steel.  Carbon steel is much easier to sharpen.  Stainless is an alloy of nickle.  Take a nickle and try to bend it, it will break.  Take a small piece of carbon steel the same thickness, it will bend before breaking.  That is why I say stainless is harder, more brittle, less malleable.  This is why I think they are saying stainless will be more likely to crack a barrel in cold weather than more malleable carbon steel.  Some stainless has chrome in it, which is also brittle. 

[KN]

300 series stainless will not rust as it contains no iron. 400 series stainless which is used most often in firearms does contain a small amount of iron and will rust. Just not as easily as carbon steel. If you hold a magnet to your stainless gun you will notice a very small magnetic pull. That is the iron content reacting to the magnet. As for being harder than carbon steel, not in my experience machining it. Stainless barrels machine much nicer than carbon steel. They do have better wear properties than carbon steel.

[woodchukhntr]

KN,

Where are you getting your information from?  Real information on stainless steel is readily available on the web.  Stainless steels are a type of steel, the main element in steel is iron.  For example, 304, a common stainless steel type is approximately 69% Iron, the other major elements being Chrome and nickel.  When you look up the composition of a steel, the alloying elements are given in order of their percentages, the remainder is iron, that is why it is a steel.  If the main element was nickel, it would be a nickle alloy, etc.

300 series stainless steels are not heat treatable, and are not used in guns and knives.  They are also not magnetic. The 400 series stainless steels used in guns are magnetic, but others may or may not be depending on their composition and microstructure, which can be altered by heat treating.  300 series does rust, I have to deal with it on occasion in my job, see my previous post.

Look into http://www.spiusa.com/Ref001/overview1.html for more information.

[woodchukhntr]

Dixie Dude,

Refer to my last post.  Stainless steel is not an alloy of nickel, it is mainly iron, with 8% or more of nickel added in the 300 series, and not generally present in the 400 series.  Chrome is in the 11 to 26% range.  All stainless steels have chrome in them, without chrome it is not stainless steel.

[KN]

My apologies, I need to go back to school. You are absolutely right. I'll see if I can remove my foot from mouth now.   KN

[northwolf]

Now, let me throw something else in the pot!!
When you CRYO treat a barrel or a barrelled action the temperature goes down to almost MINUS 200 Celsius. It aligns molecules and makes the steel harder and more wear resistant.
Then, when you take out a gun like that in sub zero, shouldn't there be NO DANGER, since it was treated?? 

Any thoughts?

Wolf

[quickdtoo]

Lilja isn't really convinced cryo treatment is all it's cracked up to be, from their FAQs.

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#deepcryogenic


Q. What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?

A.  The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability.

Claims for increased accuracy through stress relief are not founded in our opinion. When barrels are button rifled no material is removed, it is just displaced. This causes stresses to be formed in the steel. If these stresses are not removed problems will result. These negative conditions include warping of the barrel during other machining operations, an increase in the bore diameter towards the muzzle end of the barrel during the contouring phase, and in the extreme, lengthwise splitting of the barrel. Also, if there are stresses remaining in the barrel they can be slowly released as a barrel warms up during firing. This causes the barrel to actually move during the course of shooting, causing inaccuracy.

In our testing we have found that the only effective means to completely remove the types of stresses introduced during rifling are with conventional heat treating using elevated temperatures. The -300 degree treatment alone will not remove these stresses. We have been told by a knowledgeable metallurgist that the deep cold treatment will, at best, remove up to 6% of the remaining stresses in the type of steel used for rifle barrels. The key words here are remaining stresses. In other words if the barrel was not stress relieved conventionally, then only 6% of the original stress will be removed. If the barrel has been treated conventionally with heat and then brought through the -300 degree cycle, up to 6% of any remaining stresses could be removed by the cold treatment. We do know through our testing that the cold treatment alone will not remove any significant amount of stress and that the problems outlined above concerning stress will remain in the barrel.

So, because of the very limited amount of stress that could be removed with the cold treatment (if the barrel has been properly stress relieved with heat as our barrels are) we do not believe that there can be much if any accuracy benefit to the -300 degree treatment of our barrels. It is for these reasons that we feel the cold process has very little potential for increasing the accuracy of our barrels. In our opinion, other than the removal of these stresses, there are no other mechanical factors involved that could benefit accuracy in a rifle barrel, resulting from a heat treating operation, either hot or cold.

For reasons not completely understood however there may be an increase in the wear resistance of the steel. This type of wear however does not contribute greatly to barrel erosion. We invite you to read our comments on this type of barrel wear in the question regarding the use of moly coated bullets.

Another possible side benefit to the freezing process is a slight increase in its machinability.

Post Script:  Since I originally wrote this an excellent article by Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets was printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Shooting magazine.  Mr. Thomas found, in a controlled test, that there was little benefit to deep freezing match grade barrels.  He could see no difference in accuracy but probably a slight increase in useful life.  I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to take a look at this article.

 

[northwolf]

Tim,
I wanted to just point out and ask the question, if you CRYO treat a barrel would the DANGER of sub zero shooting disappear??
If the barrel last longer before you have to remove a thread and rechamber, then that would be a benefit too...right?

Wolf

[quickdtoo]

I dunno, I'm not a metallurgist, had to spell check it to see if I even spelled it right!!   I just posted that due to their opinion on possible advantages of the treatment.

Tim

http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2804

[safetysheriff]

i found the brief statement about this at the bottom of their calibers / prices page.   it is not explained.   my suggestion......in all sincerity.......call Remington directlly to ask them and/or buy a Ruger All-Weather rifle with their exceptional metallurgy (at least by reputation) 


ss' 

[SDS-GEN]

Stainless steel is a steel alloy that contains at least 13% chromium.  Steel used in rifles contains less than 13% chromium and therefore isn't true stainless.  And yes it will rust, very quickly in salt water environments.  Higher chromium content steel isn't used because it is too difficult to machine.  One manufacturer's barrel may rust faster than another's, probably because of different type of steel, different quality and different finish.  Never heard of a barrel bursting because it is too cold?

[roper]

Here is what I found on the subject:

From: Bart Bobbitt <bartb@hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Stainless Barrels vs. Cold Weather

Some custom barrel makers specifically caution against using their
stainless barrels in hunting rifles.  One (Krieger) doesn't even
make sporting/hunting barrels in stainless steel.  In a conversation
with B.J. Obermeyer some years ago, he told me that some of his
stainless barrels were installed in hunting rifles and used in
Alaska winter-time hunts.  Some of these barrels burst when fired.

BB

  I guess BB never seen this
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/RapidCat/catalog/pagetemplate.cfm?template=/RapidCat/common/viewPage.cfm&PageId=3390&CompanyId=1246

http://www.obermeyerbarrels.com/steel.html

If you read Obermeyer on SS and cold weather it seems the barrel contour might be the problem.   Kreiger has his cut-rifle barrel making operataion that supplies barrel to  Wby etc in sporter weight SS that are not sold to the public. : In 1999, we started another barrel company Criterion Barrels that manufactures button rifled barrels for the O.E.M. market. These barrels are not directly for sale to the general public. Recently there have been some magazine articles written regarding this company which has caused some confusion. Be assured that when you order a Krieger Barrel, you are getting a single-point cut-rifled Krieger Barrel.