too many deer in Missouri and what to do about it????

[spaaz]

The Missouri Department of Conservation will be holding public meeting this year to get public opinion about how to reduce the deer herd in Missouri.

I think they are mostly concerned about  too many does and how to reduce their population.

There is talk about extending the doe season and opening it as early as October and then changing the any deer season portion to extended into the week of, or at least making it so that it falls in the week of,  Thanksgiving so that there will be more people able to hunt during the Thanksgiving holiday.

What is the talk over the state about the public opinion about what to do?    What is you ideas?  What do you think about making baiting legal ?   What are the pros and cons of baiting ?

I looked the topic up on Google.  The cons I have been able to find outweigh the pros so far.

The cons they suggest is that baiting would cause more disease in the deer heard , toxin's in the feed that would "poison" the deer, and the deer become more nocturnal.

The pros (only one that I have found), hunters would be more able to ID their target while deer are feeding at a bait station or bait area. The benefit of this is obvious in that it would reduce the chance of accidentally shooting another hunter.

What is your ideas ?

[El Hombre]

They can start by lowering the cost of the out of state hunting license.
$175 for me to go home and hunt deer on the land that has been in my family for 4 generations, and I will someday own. Outrageous especially for a Conservation department that has the money that Missouri does. Most state game departments rely only on license sales only for revenue. Missouri has the benefit of a sales tax to fund it's conservation department. You would think that would allow for reduced license fees. ( In my opinion residents should hunt & fish for free under such a system) Instead, Missouri has some of the highest license fees around, especially for out of state hunters.

Other than that, increase the "4 on one side" antler restriction for bucks to statewide and allow multiple antlerless deer permits on the base tag without charging for additional antlerless tags.

Extending the deer season also.

I don't think opening the doe season before the regular season is a good idea. Too many illegal bucks would be killed.

Allowing crossbows during the archery season will allow alot of older hunters to participate also.

I don't have a problem with baiting. What's the difference in baiting & sitting around a corn field. There are alot of myths about baiting that were started when game managers were trying to INCREASE deer herds, so they discouraged baiting. It is legal here in Kentucky. The only disadvantage I have seen is the squirrels will eat alot of corn & worry you to death while you are on your stand.

The easiest way to reduce the herd will never happen. Don't have seperate seasons, just sell deer tags. " The season starts Sept 15 & ends Dec 31, you get one tag that allows one buck & 4 does, the method of harvest is up to the hunter."

[Ranger J]

This is a question that will be kicked around a lot I imagine.  IMO to start with there are not too many deer, at least in the Ozarks where I live and hunt.  Extending the 4 point 'experiment' into the rest of the state, again IMO would be a disaster.  Talking to people where it is in effect now it is none too popular there.  As to the price of out of state licenses, I agree they are overpriced.  However Missouri's $175 compares to Kentucky's $130 and Illinois $250.  I would like to see it changed to 'as much as that state charges Missouri hunters to hunt in that state.  I really get nervous every time the DOC starts tinkering with the deer season.  Letting crossbow hunters hunt during the entire archery season would seem to be a good idea.  Legalize atlatl hunting also.  I guess we will just have to wait and hope for the best, but I don't count on it judging on some of the decisions made in the last few years.  Changing the muzzle loading season to a historic weapons season where we could use any gun of a type ;made before 1890 or any cartridge that originally was loaded in black powder, ala state of Mississippi might also fly with hunters.

RJ

[El Hombre]

Ranger J,
I agree that you don't have as many deer in the Ozarks as there are up north. My family's property is in the central part of the state, (Osage county) and there seems to be alot of support for the antler restriction there. We are already seeing the result as this past season harvested 4 large mature bucks on our property, (one a 12 point) and several others were seen, so I have to disagree that the restriction is unpopular. Comparing Missouri's license fees to Kentucky's & others is unfair, as none of the other states receive the huge amount of money that Missouri does from it's 1/8% sales tax. When license fees are your main revenue source, they have to be high. (Most are still not as high as Missouri)
Fish and game departments nationwide are under alot of pressure to reduce deer herds, primarily from Insurance companies, but also from landscapers, developers, crop damaged farmers and urban property owners. Hunters want more opportunities hunt and to kill bigger deer. Extending the seasons and harvest methods especially for does, while restricting the number & size of the Bucks killed is the only way to balance the wishes for all.

[kevthebassman]

I'd like to see a greater variety and longer length of doe seasons, for example maybe just a primitive black powder season for cap and flintlock rifles.  I'd also like to see MDC sponsor the Share the Harvest program so that hunters can donate meat to the soup kitchens without paying out the nose to do so.

[rocko]

I am in no mood to read through all these posts at the moment. I skimmed them, and thats all. this discussion can go south quick, and if it does i will shut it down. No-one has stepped out of line yet, and lets keep it that way..


Now for my opinion... I can tell by what i did read that the majority of people that have posted so far only hunt a very small portion of the state.. I hunt all over it. And to say anything needs to be made statewide is a lack of knowledge. The deer herd is in no way balanced across the state. The first thing that needs to be done is the state broke down in regions and managed seperately. The deer herd in southeast missouri where i live is in no way close to Northern missouri.


for the statewide antler restriction ...... how could you possible assume that everyone in the state is a trophy hunter ? that is all an antler restriction does, is grow bigger bucks.. It doesnt increase the doe kill. With the liberal doe limits in placce now in the overpopulated areas, why use your buck tag on one... Missouri is trying to become a top trophy state like illinois and iowa. there job is not to grow trophy deer, it is to manage the health of the herd.. And antler restrictions dont do that, they let little bucks get bigger... It has nothing to do with herd health.. And would not work in my area..


And for the high out of state liscense.. Why should we be any cheaper tell me just which state with the amount of deer and trophy potential we have is any cheaper ?? Why should we let people from Illinois charge us 500 for an out of state bow tag, and then jump over here and hunt for little of nothing??? I am all for the reciprocal liscense fee. If your state charges 350 dollars for us , then that is what you should pay here.. yes the resident liscense are to high.. But the non resident liscense here are much cheaper than in states with comparable trophy potential..

Early doe season, is goofy to me also. I dont know how many people i have heard say they wanted the liberal doe tags, and now are gripping because they didnt see near as many deer this year.. If you kill a bunch of does, your gonna have less young deer in the years to come... Thats just plain common sense..


Moving the deer season back to the week of thanksgiving, is a great idea in my opinion ... Give the mature deer a better chance to pass on there genes before the orange army invades... Common sense tells you that allowing your good genes to be passed on are gonna improve the gene pool and size of bucks in the future..



And now for my pet peave.... Trying to claim that since missouri is so highly funded by tax money that out of state liscense should be cheaper ..... Do you come to Missouri every time you buy groceries ?? Or shells??? Or a gun>? Just how much tax money do you spend in Missouri ?? Please explain why resident tax money going to the MDC should lower tags for people that dont pay taxes here year round Just dont make any sense to me. Why should it help you that we care enough about our natural rescources to vote in a tax for the MDC??? Why shouldnt we get cheaper liscense , cause we are the ones paying the taxes, not you out of staters.... ?


Now this was all just my opinion...

[Mattkc]

I can't see extending the season anymore then it is.  For many of use it's already to long, while I enjoy deer hunting I also enjoy small game hunting. One deer a year is plenty for me and I normally get it the first day.  If I hunted during all the deer seasons I wouldn't be able to give away the meat. I hunt mostly public land and by the end of deer season the parking areas are full of rotting deer and many haven't been butchered. A lot of guys are just shooting deer and dumping them or just taking the back straps.  The other problem is small game hunting which has seen a decrease in hunters.  There is no way I'm taking my dog out in the fields or woods during deer season.  To go small game hunting I have to try and fit a few hunts in the gaps between rifle seasons.  It's also a wise idea to stay out of the woods during fall turkey season.  I take a lot of precautions and I still got shot at last year while coyote hunting.

[El Hombre]

And now for my pet peave.... Trying to claim that since missouri is so highly funded by tax money that out of state liscense should be cheaper ..... Do you come to Missouri every time you buy groceries ?? Or shells??? Or a gun>? Just how much tax money do you spend in Missouri ?? Please explain why resident tax money going to the MDC should lower tags for people that dont pay taxes here year round Just dont make any sense to me. Why should it help you that we care enough about our natural rescources to vote in a tax for the MDC??? Why shouldnt we get cheaper liscense , cause we are the ones paying the taxes, not you out of staters.... ?
Now this was all just my opinion...

Rocko,
The thread is about how to reduce the Missouri deer herd. I posted about the high Missouri license fees because I feel that is a deterrent for out of state hunters to harvest Missouri deer. My pet peeve is having to pay $175 to hunt on property that has been in my family for almost 100 years. It does reduce the number of out of state hunters that will come to Missouri to hunt.

I'm sorry, but I have to throw some water on your pet  peeve of "we pay taxes so our license should be cheaper, not yours"  I said in my earlier post,under such a system, RESIDENT LICENSE SHOULD BE FREE, If you want to use the tax difference for nonresidents, that's fine, but let's be realistic, how much tax do YOU actually pay? The conservation tax is 1/8 of 1%. That means for every $8 taxed, 1 cent goes to the conservation department or on $800 taxed = $1 to the conservation department. The resident deer tag is $17 the nonresident is $175. for a $158 difference in tag costs.  That means tax would have to be collected on sales of $126,400  ($158 x $800) to equal the difference. The average Missouri Income is $30,516 (2004) so I don't think the average Missouri resident is paying sales tax on $126,400 worth of purchases each year. The tax argument doesn't wash. Lower non resident tags would increase the number of nonresident hunters (currently at @ 4% of all tags sold in Missouri.) increasing the deer harvested. Reciprocal license fees? Not really fair compared to states that sole income is from tag sales.
 How about a two tier system - nonresident antlerless tags at a cheaper rate than buck tags? That may encourage more does harvested.

[El Hombre]

I dont know how many people i have heard say they wanted the liberal doe tags, and now are gripping because they didnt see near as many deer this year.. If you kill a bunch of does, your gonna have less young deer in the years to come... Thats just plain common sense..

Yes, but isn't that what the conservation department is trying to do, and the subject of the is thread- "too many deer in Missouri and what to do about it??"

People have to realize the old notion of "don't shoot does, they are your future" has to change. The deer herd, in most areas is out of check. Shooting does is the only way to keep the level constant, or reduce it.

for the statewide antler restriction ...... how could you possible assume that everyone in the state is a trophy hunter ?

I don't, and I hope they aren't. If you are not a "trophy hunter" then shoot a doe. Why shoot an immature buck?  You can't eat antlers, especially small ones. Because there are bragging rights of "I got my buck" vs killing a doe is an out of date mindset, but still very common across the state.
It wouldn't hurt my feeling to close the hunting of bucks for two years and only allow doe harvest. The problem is, alot of people just wouldn't go, for them it's a buck or nothing. This mindset has to change.

[BobT]

OK, not to start an argument but the non-resident fee is a non issue as far as I'm concerned. It's cheap compared to most other states. If other states don't supplement their funds with tax money then that's too bad. Trophy hunter I'm not but I have not tagged a buck during firearms season in the last three years. This year I killed two does, one with a bow and one with a muzzle loader I simply haven't seen a buck I wanted to shoot. As far as trophy racks go the last time I checked the Boone and Crockett #1 non-typical was from Missouri and the Randolph county buck was still in the top 5 in the typical category! If you want to get cheaper tags move to Missouri or better yet move back to your families land and get free ones. I do agree with reciprocity on license fees, if for example you are from Illinois and hunt in Missouri then you should pay the same thing I would pay to hunt in your state. Too many deer, nope! Too many deer in some areas, absolutely! Deal with them on an area by area plan. I'm starting to see politics creeping into Missouri's conservation department and I do not like it, the Department needs to be directed by sound biological practices.

Just my opinions!
Bob

[rocko]

ElHombre, since you asked me directly, ill answer your question. and try to fill in your lack of knowledge.. considering you said the deer heard was out of control in most of the state, just how many counties do you hint in From my understanding, you said you hunt on your familys property.. Which i assume is in one county. So obviously you dont have a true measure of the herd over the whole state, but thats fine because neither does the MDC. the herd is very small here in southeast MO where i live. A statewide antler restriction would cause more does to be killed, which would be very bad for the herd down here. Now i hunted in 4 different counties in different parts of the state this year. And the herd is deffinately not ballanced across the state..


and for your comment about why shoot little bucks... Heres your answer-- because i want to.. I am a bit of a trophy hunter, but people like yourself leave me with an overwhelming desire to shoot more small bucks. Because of the simple fact you think i should let a little buck walk when i have chose to shoot it, so you have a better chance at a trophy in the future. It doesnt work that way bud. The missouri deer herd isnt here to boost your ego.. Matter of fact i think i will go on a button buck shooting rampage next year in tribute to people like yourself..

And since you wanted to try and pull numbers and try to show the small effect of the 1/8 of 1 tax, i find it really ironic that you also wanted to use that same tax as a reason that non res tags should be lowered...


Since you dont care for the deer regs or price tags here, how about you dont come here ?? Cause personal, i would rather not have the influx of out of state lead slingers every year.. Stay home and keep the rest of the orange army with you if it bothers you so bad.


And in your first reply to me, you asked why not cheaper antlerless tags for out of staters... Aparently you have no knowledge of our regs.. If you are hunting in a county with unlimited or extra antlerless tags, you pay the same as us.. Yes you have to pay the 145 first for the regular tag, and then you can kill all the does you want for 7 bucks a pop.. Guess you want them for free though dont ya..


Now flame away.. Ill be sure and post up plenty of button buck harvest pictures for you next year...

[spaaz]

I hope I can say what I am thinking without opening up a can of worms and having rocko shut this thread down, because I really like some of the ideas so far...

First of all I agree that there ARE NOT to many does at least in my area of southwest Missouri.......it needs to be dealt with on an area by area zone.

As far as opening the season early on does or even extending it later.......we have to remember that there are 3 gestation periods for does....not all does get breed in November during what we consider the rut.......some get breed early some as late as January.

If the season opens in October some of the fawns are not even fully weened yet.....we have all seen fawns during the November gun season that still have spots!!!!   The gestation of a doe is 6 months so the fawn is as young as 3 months old. So will the fawn survive on their own if the mother doe is killed?  As far as that goes, a similar situation with the late season in December.......does that have been breed during the rut are 30 to 45 days old, many of them with twins. So when you shoot 1 doe you are killing 3 deer!!!!!!!!  Right?

Second, call me dumb, and I know I am,  but how does the 4 point antler restriction work?   To be able to say a deer with 4 points on one side is going to make a bigger deer just because he has 4 points on one side seems crazy to me.  I have seen 8 or 10 point deer that are 4 to 5 years old and only have a 10 inch or so inside spread and maybe 10 inches high......that deer is NEVER going to make a trophy deer and will never have the genes to produce a trophy deer.

Like rocko said you have to have the genes to make trophy deer!!!!!!!!!   For the average hunter like me to look at a buck and be able to determine it is "trophy" material is very difficult because you have to be able to determined the approximate age (on the hoof) and determined just how big the rack is (just because it looks big does not make it big in the "trophy" world).

If you want a trophy herd we all need the ability to judge the age of deer by looking at them before shooting and be able to tell what their potential is or will be. 

[El Hombre]

Wow, where to start? Evidently I touched a nerve. I find your post pretty stong and rather personal, especially for a moderator. I would like to respond, even though alot is off topic. For the record, I don't "flame". I try to have meaningful conversation. Isn't that what these forms are for?

ElHombre, since you asked me directly, ill answer your question. and try to fill in your lack of knowledge.. considering you said the deer heard was out of control in most of the state, just how many counties do you hint in

I don't think I said the population was out of control in most of the state, but I did respond in this forum to the subject of how to reduce the deer herd.

From my understanding, you said you hunt on your familys property.. Which i assume is in one county. So obviously you dont have a true measure of the herd over the whole state, but thats fine because neither does the MDC. the herd is very small here in southeast MO where i live.

Your right, I currently only hunt on my families property. I know and talk to many hunters throughout the state, I lived there for the first 30 years of my life. I understand the population varies greatly with the northern part of the state having the greatest population, and less in the southern region. I find it interesting that you feel the MDC does not have accurate statistics. Maybe you should contact them.

A statewide antler restriction would cause more does to be killed, which would be very bad for the herd down here. Now i hunted in 4 different counties in different parts of the state this year. And the herd is deffinately not ballanced across the state..

Interesting, especially since you said in your first post that  " that is all an antler restriction does, is grow bigger bucks.. It doesnt increase the doe kill."   I do agree that the herd is not balanced across the state, but that means less doe tags should be offered for your area.

and for your comment about why shoot little bucks... Heres your answer-- because i want to.. I am a bit of a trophy hunter, but people like yourself leave me with an overwhelming desire to shoot more small bucks. Because of the simple fact you think i should let a little buck walk when i have chose to shoot it, so you have a better chance at a trophy in the future. It doesnt work that way bud. The missouri deer herd isnt here to boost your ego.. Matter of fact i think i will go on a button buck shooting rampage next year in tribute to people like yourself..

 

Wow, I don't really have a response to that. In fact that statement almost convinced me not to respond at all. Maybe that was your intent. I don't use the Missouri herd to boost my ego. But I pass on small bucks. I would rather have my 10 year old nephew kill a 9 point like he did last year on the youth hunt, or my 64 year old father kill the biggest buck of his life a nice 12 point like he did this year, than for me to shoot a little forked horn or a small 6 point. But that's just me. I know alot of guys like you.

And since you wanted to try and pull numbers and try to show the small effect of the 1/8 of 1 tax, i find it really ironic that you also wanted to use that same tax as a reason that non res tags should be lowered...

   

What I used the numbers for was to show that the argument that nonresidents don't pay their share was disproportionatee in the license fees. I guess we won't agree on this one.

Since you dont care for the deer regs or price tags here, how about you dont come here ?? Cause personal, i would rather not have the influx of out of state lead slingers every year.. Stay home and keep the rest of the orange army with you if it bothers you so bad.

   

I don't think I questioned any regs, other than in the context of the subject of "too many deer in Missouri and what to do about it?"  I did offer some suggestions based on that, one of which was the lowering of the tag prices, which I feel are too high.

And in your first reply to me, you asked why not cheaper antlerless tags for out of staters... Aparently you have no knowledge of our regs.. If you are hunting in a county with unlimited or extra antlerless tags, you pay the same as us.. Yes you have to pay the 145 first for the regular tag, and then you can kill all the does you want for 7 bucks a pop.. Guess you want them for free though dont ya..
Now flame away.. Ill be sure and post up plenty of button buck harvest pictures for you next year...

     

I have hunted Missouri deer for 32 years. I know the regs very well. Evidently you do not it is $175 for the regular tag not $145 and I know additional tags are available. My suggestion for cheaper antlerless tags was another suggestion as a method to reduce the deer herd.

Rocko, I am sorry I have upset you. Several things are obvious from your posts. Please correct me if I am wrong.

1) You don't feel there are too many deer in Missouri.

2) Other than moving the current season later in the month,  you don't think other changes are necessary in the current regs to increase the doe harvest, especially in your area.

2) You don't like antler restrictions. In fact you enjoy shooting small bucks.

3) You don't think the MDC knows what it is doing.

4) You don't like out of state hunters.

SPAAZ, I'm sorry your thread got so far off subject. To rocko's delight, I probably won't post in the Missouri form anymore. I thought it would be a good place to connect with some Missouri hunters. I guess I was wrong.

[Ranger J]

We the people of the state of Missouri have voted to have a dedicated percentage of the sales tax go to support both the Department of Natural Resources and the Conservation Department because we chose to.  This does not mean that these two departments are rolling in money.  Politics were mentioned!  The idea of the people who sponsored this tax was that this money was to be in addition to the amount of money that the legislature usually allocated for these two departments.  Guess what happened??  The legislature turned around and said as these departments were now getting this money from the tax then the legislature didn't need to allocate money from the general fund.  The result is that these departments probably get about the same amount as they got before the tax.  It worked the same way on the casino tax and the state lottery.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the way to lower the population of deer is to shoot more does.  As Rocko noted in most of the counties above the Missouri river you can shoot all the does you want for $7 each.  This is probably one of the more liberal limits of any state in the U.S.  No, the majority of Missouri deer hunters are not really interested in growing big antlers.  They are interested in having a chance to shoot a deer and usually any deer will do.  I have seen one antlered deer in Missouri the last four seasons in the area where I hunt in the Ozarks.  In those four years I have shot seven does.  Yes I eat deer and two deer a year is all that my family will consume.  Would I like to have shot that eight pointer that came out of the brush right under my stand last year and took one look, snorted and left, you betja!  Did I feel unsatisfied with the two does I shot the next day, not one bit.  They were delicious.

This is a subject that I am sure all of us will not agree on.  One thing we can do is agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable.

RJ

[rocko]

Wow, where to start? Evidently I touched a nerve. I find your post pretty stong and rather personal, especially for a moderator. I would like to respond, even though alot is off topic. For the record, I don't "flame". I try to have meaningful conversation. Isn't that what these forms are for?  you didnt toucha nerve. I just stated MY opinion. Im sorry that you found them strong

ElHombre, since you asked me directly, ill answer your question. and try to fill in your lack of knowledge.. considering you said the deer heard was out of control in most of the state, just how many counties do you hint in

I don't think I said the population was out of control in most of the state, but I did respond in this forum to the subject of how to reduce the deer herd.

And i simply gave my opinions

From my understanding, you said you hunt on your familys property.. Which i assume is in one county. So obviously you dont have a true measure of the herd over the whole state, but thats fine because neither does the MDC. the herd is very small here in southeast MO where i live.

Your right, I currently only hunt on my families property. I know and talk to many hunters throughout the state, I lived there for the first 30 years of my life. I understand the population varies greatly with the northern part of the state having the greatest population, and less in the southern region. I find it interesting that you feel the MDC does not have accurate statistics. Maybe you should contact them.


I also talk to many hunters throughout the state. On this and several other forums i visit. One of which is strictly a forum for Missouri deer hunters. And with 2500 members id say i get a pretty good sampling. And alot agree with you, and alot dont. Its all just opinion.  And for the MDC, if they have any intentions of a statewide antler restriction, they must be poorly informed.

A statewide antler restriction would cause more does to be killed, which would be very bad for the herd down here. Now i hunted in 4 different counties in different parts of the state this year. And the herd is deffinately not ballanced across the state..

Interesting, especially since you said in your first post that   " that is all an antler restriction does, is grow bigger bucks.. It doesnt increase the doe kill."  I do agree that the herd is not balanced across the state, but that means less doe tags should be offered for your area.



My point was that they tried to sell it as a herd management tool at first. Now all there proopoganda is telling that it will grow bigger bucks. Typical bait and switch.

and for your comment about why shoot little bucks... Heres your answer-- because i want to.. I am a bit of a trophy hunter, but people like yourself leave me with an overwhelming desire to shoot more small bucks. Because of the simple fact you think i should let a little buck walk when i have chose to shoot it, so you have a better chance at a trophy in the future. It doesnt work that way bud. The missouri deer herd isnt here to boost your ego.. Matter of fact i think i will go on a button buck shooting rampage next year in tribute to people like yourself..

 

Wow, I don't really have a response to that. In fact that statement almost convinced me not to respond at all. Maybe that was your intent. I don't use the Missouri herd to boost my ego. But I pass on small bucks. I would rather have my 10 year old nephew kill a 9 point like he did last year on the youth hunt, or my 64 year old father kill the biggest buck of his life a nice 12 point like he did this year, than for me to shoot a little forked horn or a small 6 point. But that's just me. I know alot of guys like you.



Im glad to hear it. One of my greatest passions is putting on youth and disabled hunts in Missouri. My response was to your statement asking why people would shoot small bucks and not does. And the reason was, they dont have to. If a spike walks up on a meat hunter, there gonna shoot it. Its legal, so why should you feel you need to question it ?? Why should they let a legal deer walk if they dont want to ?? The point i was trying to convey was that just because you choose to pass small bucks, doesnt mean you are in some way better, or in any way have the right to question there ways. Just because you are a horn hunter, doesnt mean you are a superior hunter. But questioning someones harvest, is rude..If its legal, shoot it if you choose to.

And since you wanted to try and pull numbers and try to show the small effect of the 1/8 of 1 tax, i find it really ironic that you also wanted to use that same tax as a reason that non res tags should be lowered...

 

What I used the numbers for was to show that the argument that nonresidents don't pay their share was disproportionatee in the license fees. I guess we won't agree on this one.


But it was fine for you to use it when it fit your agenda ??

Since you dont care for the deer regs or price tags here, how about you dont come here ?? Cause personal, i would rather not have the influx of out of state lead slingers every year.. Stay home and keep the rest of the orange army with you if it bothers you so bad.

 

I don't think I questioned any regs, other than in the context of the subject of "too many deer in Missouri and what to do about it?"  I did offer some suggestions based on that, one of which was the lowering of the tag prices, which I feel are too high.

So we should let Illinois residents come across the river and hunt for little of nothing, but it costs us over 500 for a bow tag there ?? Doesnt make much sense does it..

And in your first reply to me, you asked why not cheaper antlerless tags for out of staters... Aparently you have no knowledge of our regs.. If you are hunting in a county with unlimited or extra antlerless tags, you pay the same as us.. Yes you have to pay the 145 first for the regular tag, and then you can kill all the does you want for 7 bucks a pop.. Guess you want them for free though dont ya..
Now flame away.. Ill be sure and post up plenty of button buck harvest pictures for you next year...

   

I have hunted Missouri deer for 32 years. I know the regs very well. Evidently you do not it is $175 for the regular tag not $145 and I know additional tags are available. My suggestion for cheaper antlerless tags was another suggestion as a method to reduce the deer herd.


so its 175 now... And as i said above, the antlerless tags are 7 bucks apiece. How much cheaper do you want them ?? 10 does for 70 dollars is to much ??

Rocko, I am sorry I have upset you. Several things are obvious from your posts. Please correct me if I am wrong.


First  correction, you didnt upset me. I just stated my opinion..


1) You don't feel there are too many deer in Missouri.

Never said that. I just stated that there are not to many across the state. So how is a statewide regulation change gonna improve a herd with such differing numbers from south to north ??


2) Other than moving the current season later in the month,  you don't think other changes are necessary in the current regs to increase the doe harvest, especially in your area.

I didn't say i dont think other regulations are necesary. I just dont think most of the ones mentioned are. And the MDC tries to run the state as a whole, when in my opinion it needs to be managed in more of a regional manner.

2) You don't like antler restrictions. In fact you enjoy shooting small bucks.


I think antler restrictions are not the answer. i think more education on aging deer on the hoof is necessary. Antlers are in no way a true indication of maturity. It has been scientifically proven that removing the mature bucks from the herd before breeding time reduces the average antler size year after year . This is due to allowing bucks with less superior genes to breed. And how is killing a 2 1/2 year old 8 pointer gonna help deer reach maturity and antler potential ?? Number of points arent the key, maturity is. And to me liking to shoot small bucks. Not true. I pass alot of small bucks every year. But i dont apriceate you asking why someone would pass a small buck when it is a legal deer. If they wanna shoot a small buck, they can . Whey do you think they should have to pass them and shoot a doe ? I could care less if i shoot a little buck. Cause i have killed lots of them in the past. But just because you choose to pass small bucks, you shouldnt feel you have a right to question other hunters ethics because they shoot a legal deer. { By the way 3 comes after 2 }

3) You don't think the MDC knows what it is doing.


Didnt mean that. I just meant they try to manage the state as a whole, once again i feel it needs managed on more of a regional level. And i think they try way to hard to please trophy hunters, and draw out of state money by becoming a major trophy state.

4) You don't like out of state hunters.

Not all of them. I gave up an awesome lease in Texas county because of them. It was turkey heaven. but i couldnt hunt due to running people off. And every vehicle had Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas ETC. tags on them. never ran an in stater off in three years of hunting it. But ran over 50 out of staters off. That and the hords of out of state trucks flying down the road in front of my house the whole first week of rifle season, and the majority are out of staters. Now i realize they are all not they way, but hopefully you understand slightly.

SPAAZ, I'm sorry your thread got so far off subject. To rocko's delight, I probably won't post in the Missouri form anymore. I thought it would be a good place to connect with some Missouri hunters. I guess I was wrong.


SPAZZ, aparently since i dont agree i am derailing your thread. Im sorry if i did that. For some reason i thought i was allowed to voice my opinion. And hombre, feel free to post here all you want. Just dont call people out because you dont agree with there opinion. I stated my opinions on the different topics brought up in this thread, then you called me out personally. Your are more than welcome here. Just understand that not everyone is gonna agree with you .  Please continue to post..

[rocko]

Just so everyone knows, i did not intend to point any of this at anyone. I was just trying to give my opinions on the things mentioned. Now lets all just keep it civil, and try to become more informed, and see things from a different prospective.  Discuss the issues, and try not to direct anything  at someone. A healthy debate is great to help open the mind.

[nodlenor]

There are several meetings set up throughout the state to discuss this very matter if anyone feels strongly about the issue I would suggest they attend one of these meetings and voice their opinion. I think the schedule is listed elsewhere in this forum. I'm sure there are a lot of different opinions on ways to solve this matter and these meetings should be the place to discuss them.

[bajabill]

I hunt in the central part of the state with the antler restriction.  I am in a county without the "bonus" antlerless season.  When this first surfaced about 4 years ago, I emailed the dept about this seemingly oversight.  Why would we not have the bonus season and also have to have the antler restriction?  They said that the program was a test, and they wanted to include in the test an area with moderate deer population.

Now, after hunting with the restriction, I am in favor of it, everyone I hunt with is in favor of it, and I have not heard of much complaint from 3rd or 4th party conversations either - from my area.  One thing I did read on the dept's web page was that the doe harvest was up about 12% in the central state area of the test program, but the doe harvest was basically unchanged up north.  I think this means it is good for moderate population areas, probably not good for low population areas, and not the solution in the high population areas.  My opinion would be - make it 3 on a side without counting the brow tines, those are difficult to see. 

I think the real goal is to encourage people to shoot does, bigger antlers as an average is just icing on the cake.  When this was starting, the dept was talking about doe-buck percentages in the herd.  We have seen more ~ 8 pt bucks as a result, not really any bigger deer with 12 or 14 pt and huge measurement numbers.

I dont have much problem or strong opinion on the moving of dates, if I was afforded an antlerless bonus season, I would prefer it in late Oct.

[luv2shoot]

Hire the officials in charge of Arkansas's Game and Fish.  They seem to have depleted the population of the deer herd  in short order

[troy5775]

I agree that the state should be managed in sections and nothing done state wide. I think the northern counties that are over run with deer should be but on the earn a buck system. Make all of the trophy hunters bag a doe before they are allowed  to kill a buck. This would help keep the population under control. There are too many people that let does walk by all day long looking for that trophy buck that will turn around and gripe about the deer population being out of control or out of balance. I 'm  definetely against the antler point program. From what I have seen the biggest number of people for it hunt private land where they already have control over what is killed in their area. Some times it is hard enough to killa deer on over crowded public land down here in southeast missouri without having to take the time to count antler points.

[Ponydog]

Troy made a good point about harvesting a doe first.....before hunting that buck everyone seems to be taken with...I mean , let's admit it....men don't talk around the water cooler about that nice doe they shot......I will relay a "out of state-rs"  point of view about Texas....I live in Missouri , but deer hunt Texas every year.......the reason.....they have deer there.......I buy a tag for 300 bucks...so I don't wanna hear folks whining about 175.....it isn't that bad........I also know , that Texas is a HUGE state....deer herd approaches 4 million..Missouri Herd I think is close to 800,000 maybe a bit more......but we also have a lot LESS hunters in MO...so that math works....what does NOT is the fact that Missouri Rifle season is about 10 or 11 days....Texas rifle season starts in Mid November , and ends in Mid January...something like 52 days worth .....that does several things....ONE it's SAFER.....you don't have these weekend warriors at DEER CAMP....whatever the heck that means...( that is my pet peeve)  a group of people having a party making noise , drinking, whooping it up...planning to go out with a gun in their hands before daylight....ok...ok...I know ALL deer camps are NOT that way .....but some are...and it sheds a bad light on the sport for us all.......but back to my point....having 53 days to hunt, really lessens the sense of "desperation " to get out and hurry up and shoot at the first thing that moves.......almost creating a "frenzied" environment ....NOT what you want when hunting..........TWO...it allows you to be more selective.........THREE...less people in the woods at once...less pressure on deer.......
Bottom line is , other states that feel "regional population excesses"  have a special season in that area...sell more tags....extend the season.....or even hire hunters to take out deer in selected areas........that last option is deemed as VERY UNPOPULAR........we are shooting "Bambi"..........at first, people thing seeing deer is so wonderful ...right here at the edge of the cul-de-sac...........but when Bambi starts eating Moms prize petunias....well, that attitude changes pretty fast............there is no one size fits all answer.....Missouri Conservationists/ Department of Conservation.., are going to have to analyze harvest information....do spot "inventory checks" of deer in suspected overpopulated areas.......and make plans accordingly.........and they better act fast...........if they do think that overpopulation is occurring in some areas......as someone said in an earlier post.........we don't have that problem in SE Missouri .....seeing deer in this part of the state is like a BIGFOOT sighting......you hear alot of people talking about it.....but you rarely see proof.

[kevthebassman]

I can't imagine going hunting and NOT seeing deer.  We had to shoo them away once when we were building a box blind in July.  Killed a lot of deer out of that blind.

[IMshooter]

Back to the original topic.....

I hunt in the central part of Missouri and just a few years ago the deer population in our local area was WAY out of control.  The fellows who hunt on the next farm and ourselves have shot a tremendous amount of does to get the population down.  It worked.

Personally, I think the solution is to interest more people to take up hunting.  If you think about it, most existing deer hunters have little trouble harvesting the number of deer they want for the freezer.

This past fall one of my coworkers decided to try deer hunting.  He was 38 years old and had never hunted anything.  I did not think he was serious until he took the MDC Hunter Safety course.  So I took him hunting and he shot his first deer using his deceased grandfather's rifle.  Talk about sweet!

We need more hunters.  I heard MDC is considering a special 2 day season this fall for people who have never taken the hunter safety course (they will probably be required to have a licensed hunter with them, much like the Youth License).  I think it is a great idea.