whats the deal with the new .357 and .44 mag frames?

[sachel.45]

anybody know why they basically get a special frame? is it just the basic shotgun frame because that doesn't make since this seems to me to be a very stupid idea especially since they don't come with iron sights (or ejectors). are the frames going to be able to take Buffalo bore ammo? i know i could just send my frame in and get a .357 barrel with iron sights but i kinda got excited about just picking up a complete rifle. anybody else think this is weird?

[quickdtoo]

I've asked my Marlin contact if those SB1 frames are different than the shotgun SB1 frames, won't get a reply until Monday tho, if they put in a small rifle style firing pin and hole in them instead of the larger shotgun pin, that may be enough to allow the SB1 frame to work fine, but they do note that other rifle barrels can't be fitted to those frames.

Tim

[sachel.45]

if that is the case doesn't that seem to be a step backwards? why do all that when they used to offer a .357 on a regular rifle frame that seems to me to be less work. are they going to be offering the accessory barrel in .357 mag still with the iron sights? sorry for all the questions i was planning on building a little backpacking .357 mag had it already built in my head.

[quickdtoo]

SB1 frames cost less to manufacture, it's all about the bottom line, if they can sell a bunch of the 357 and 44 rifles to the thousands of Indiana deer hunters that want em, they'll do it. The 357 barrel is still on the accessory barrel list.

Tim

http://hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx

[burntmuch]

So Can I put a 357max barrel on a  sb1 reciever, free up one of my SB2 frames

[quickdtoo]

Not a good idea, several members including me have had pierced primers on their maxis due to the larger firiing pin, mine was with factory DW ammo. A call to the factory would be in order, ask if a 357mag/44mag barrel can be fitted to your shotgun frame, but they run at less pressure than the Max which is 40kpsi compared to 35/36 kpsi.

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[kodiakemt]

So do you think they would fit the new 357 to the new 44 or the other way around? I heard the old 44 barrels aren't that good and was wondering if this would be a good fix.

[fernie]

Not a good idea, several members including me have had pierced primers on their maxis due to the larger firiing pin, mine was with factory DW ammo. A call to the factory would be in order, ask if a 357mag/44mag barrel can be fitted to your shotgun frame, but they run at less pressure than the Max which is 40kpsi compared to 35/36 kpsi.

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

...supposing I have an SB1 receiver from a shotgun and the shotgun barrel is wrecked...and I want to commit that receiver to putting a light-duty rifle barrel on it...can the firing pin be replaced by an SB2 firing pin so that it does not pierce the primer?

...or can the firing pin end be honed so that it will not pierce the primer?



Doc

[quickdtoo]

The problem isn't the firing pin alone, it's the larger hole surrounding the pin, there's no support for the higher pressure on the primer. And it's not just that as far as the SB1 frames being used with the 357/44, notice their note in the catalog, the part I bolded leads me to believe those barrels have a lot of freebore to keep pressures down, the SB1 frame isn't near as strong as an SB2 beside the issue of the bigger firing pin.

Tim

PLEASE NOTE: The Handi-Rifle frame of the 44 Mag and 357
Mag. cannot be fit with any other centerfire rifle barrel. They
are capable of being fit with accessory shotgun barrels, but
their rifle barrel capability is limited to the specific 44 Mag. or
357 Mag. barrel that is shipped with the gun. This affects the
following models: SB1-S44; SB1-S35; SC1-414; SC1-324.
(All other Handi Rifles are fully eligible for our Accessory
Barrel Program.)

[fernie]

Thanks Tim!

What I had in mind was that if I got a handgun cartridge barrel, fitted it to an SB1, and committed it to using only blackpowder in that cartridge, would it be do-able?

Doc

[trotterlg]

If you are going to reload then you could just use small rifle primers and most likely solve any primer piercing problem that way.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

If you are going to reload then you could just use small rifle primers and most likely solve any primer piercing problem that way.  Larry

IIRC, Paul5388 tried that with his 357Maxi, it didn't help.

Thanks Tim!

What I had in mind was that if I got a handgun cartridge barrel, fitted it to an SB1, and committed it to using only blackpowder in that cartridge, would it be do-able?

Doc

That's one way of keeping the pressure down, Doc!! The only thing I'd be concerned about is if the rifle ended up in some unknowing person's hands and shoots full pressure loads in it, dunno if the pierced primers can do any real serious injury on a pistol caliber tho, but it's scary if the gases can get back thru the action if the firing pin goes away as happened to Dieselbuilder.

As little as SB2 frames cost, it's not really worth losing an eye or worse to me, I've bought em for as little as $75 to my FFL, and complete guns for well under $200, then sell the barrel for $100 or so.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121724.msg1098413838.html#msg1098413838

[fernie]

"That's one way of keeping the pressure down, Doc!! The only thing I'd be concerned about is if the rifle ended up in some unknowing person's hands and shoots full pressure loads in it, dunno if the pierced primers can do any real serious injury on a pistol caliber tho, but it's scary if the gases can get back thru the action if the firing pin goes away as happened to Dieselbuilder.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121724.msg1098413838.html#msg1098413838  "

----------------

Yes, transfer of ownership does concern me...I do have the ability to stamp/engrave the barrel/receiver.  I have a line on an SB1 for free and have been toying with this for a while.  It requires going slowly and thoughtfully, that's for sure.  I have a real affection for black powder.  But I can't stand the thought of using SB2's to do it with.  The corrosion in the field has hurt other guns of mine.  Neglected NEF shotguns seems to me to be one place to start...but from a distance, with a string, and behind a bunker!

...and it's just a thought.  Thanks for the pressure warnings, etc, Tim.  Thanks to S.45 for starting the thread...

Doc

[Duckdog]

What caliber are you looking at, Fernie.  Reason I ask is, I have a couple of 410/45 LCs on SB1 frames. I got a 45 LC carbine barrel, and got a good lock-up on one of the SB1s, so I have been using that combo with no problems what so ever.  Granted, I am keeping my loads down in the 8 gr of unique range, so the pressures are probably in the 14 K range or less, but black powder in that caliber would be even less pressure than that.

My reasoning was, that even with the long free bore of the 410/45LC, nothing in the instructions said a person couldn't shoot hot loads through that gun.  Some of the hotter factory loads can generate considerably higher pressures than 14 K, and possibly over 20k, so I figured the SBI receiver should defintely be up to the task.  Also, nowhere on the frame did it say SB2 like on all of the other rifle barrels.  All it says is 45 Colt Classic Carbine.

I know we're not talking apples to apples if you're looking at a 357 mag or 44 mag.  But, a 45 colt would definitely be a good BP option.

[trotterlg]

There are about three issues I can think of with the different frames.  The thrust generated against the breach face determined by the area of the cartridge and it's pressure.  The fireing pin diameter difference, and the pressure on a small area of the breach face as opposed to distrbuted across it, (a 22 hornet compared to a 12 gauge Shotgun).  Even though the total thrust may be the same it is concentrated in a smaller area with the Hornet.  Larry

[tramrd]

What would be wrong with bushing the firing pin hole, and making a new firing pin, for those who have the capability?  That would eliminate the concern about pierced primers.

[Duckdog]

I agree that it's more of an issue of not having the area of the primer supported properly.  In the case of the 45 LC, it's already offered in the SB1, so I do not believe it to be as much of an issue.  I also thought about using a higher pressure round with an SB!, but thought it better to not.

I think it would be neat to know what NEF has for a pressure rating on the SB1s, but I think it would be like pulling teeth to get that info.

[fernie]

Duckdog,

Like I said, I really haven't given it a lot of serious consideration.  But when the thread appeared the other day I thought I'd be a good time to raise the possibilities.  Actually, I was leaning toward .45 caliber rifle...just because of the availability of of components.  .45 LC would do, tho...  I do think about 45-70, but as Tim warned, if someone were to get their hands on it and didn't know what they had it would be disastrous.

trotterlg,

IMO those are all important points not just to ponder, but to have the numbers for.  I need to talk to some engineering friends...unless we have some mech-e's on here?

tramrd,

I was hoping to keep it simpler.  I would think there should be a way to keep the diameter for support but hone an extention for detonation?

...won't have time really look at it more for another month or 2.

Doc