25 auto or 22lr

[W]

I have a conceal carry license here in N.Y.
Over the last 30 years I have owned several different types and sizes of handguns.
I am not in law enforcement, I am just an average law abiding guy with a pistol permit.
I have found that most handguns are too big to carry most of the time but a small pocket .25 or .22 is very easy to carry. I know that these are not the best calibers for defense but I always ended up leaving the .38 or .45 at home.
So my question is, knowing the limitations of the smaller calibers, which do you feel is better, a .25 auto or a FA .22LR?
I am not a super hero and would rather avoid or back away from any trouble but if pushed into a corner would the sight of a pocket pistol deter a bad situation or would the weapon need to be fired to get the message?
I would also assume the need for multiple hits to stop a threat.
How effective are these calibers on 4 legged pests like stray dogs or coyotes?
 

[Graybeard]

I guess I really don't trust either that much and there is really no need to settle for either. You can get semiautos chambered to the more powerful .32 ACP or even the still more powerful .380 ACP in pretty much the same size gun so why settle for the lesser ones?

Take a look at the little Kel-Tec P32. I have one and it fits into a pocket just as well as any of the .22LR or .25 acps and is a good deal more powerful. It's no larger and no heavier but packs a lot more punch. For those times when larger and heavier would be left behind it's fine to tag along with me.

They also make it in a .380 version that is I think a bit larger but the difference is hardly noticeable even with it and in the case of the little .32 there is no difference.

So I guess I just don't see a reason to settle for either.

[jhm]

Im with GB on this one, but if its down to the 2 you have got your mind set on I would go with the 22 l.r. as ammo. is alot cheeper and you will need all the PRACTICE you can get with either of your choices to get proficient with either.  .25 acp ammo is vary expensive compared to 22 ammo.   JIM

[kevthebassman]

What graybeard said.  Neither.

My Taurus PT111 disappears when I wear it.  It's a joy to shoot and carry, and 9mm is a dang cannon compared to a dinky .22 or .25.  With the huge variety of small, light, and concealable guns available in serious self defense calibers ranging from .380 to .45, I see no reason to settle for a round that has very little chance of getting the job done right when you need it most.

[W]

I just looked up the Kel-tek P32 on line and I had no idea you could get a .32 that weighed only 6.6oz.
Would that pistol fit(as in hide) in the front pocket of a pair of genes?

[kevthebassman]

Maybe, but that's not a good way to carry.  Get a good holster and you'd be surprised how you can make a pistol disappear even wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

[Graybeard]

I just looked up the Kel-tek P32 on line and I had no idea you could get a .32 that weighed only 6.6oz.
Would that pistol fit(as in hide) in the front pocket of a pair of genes?

Yes indeed it does and I do at times carry it that way. How I carry it depends on circumstances of the moment. I have a little pocket holster it fits into that prevents it from printing as a gun when used in a tight fitting pocket like that. It also fits nicely in a handwarmer pocket of a pull over or jacket and that way as I walk from truck to store across the parking lot it is in my hand and ready for instant use should it be needed. That is one of my favorite methods of carry. I also wear vests a lot and can do same with that and have my hand in the pocket of the vest and gun in hand as I walk in a place it might be needed.

I prefer more gun and often have more but at times it's about the best you can get by with hiding and it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. I have carry guns from the little P32 to snub nosed revolvers to compact and mid size glocks all the way to full size glocks and Browning Hi Power .40s and chose which to take based on the situation I'll be in and how I'm dressed.

[walks with gun]

  I'd go the .32 route first but if you can't my next choice would be a Beretta 950 in .25 I've carried on for 15 years and it always goes bang.  Too many of the small .22s seem to have reliability problems.

[Johnny Reb]

I'd go with the Kel Tec in .380 (P3AT).  I have one.  It is a touch larger than the .32, but it disappears in the front pocket of my Levi's.  I have a Desanti Nemesis pocket holster for it.  Looks like you have a wallet in your pocket, nobody would ever think it was a gun.

[phalanx]

My wife has the Kel Tec 32 and i have the 380 .
The beauty of these gun's is you can go on line to kel Tecs web site and get this little clip for them .
It comes in right or left hand configurations , it allows you to place the gun in the small of your back clipped to your jeans.
Very little if any of the gun shows ,it is great for in the summer.

[leverfan]

Because of the priming method, rimfire cartridges can be less reliable than quality centerfire ammunition.  If it came down to a choice between .25 Auto or .22 LR, I'd pick the .25 because of that.  I"ve never had a .22 mag fail on me, and I have carried defensive handguns in that caliber, so there are exceptions to every rule.

However, like lots of others have pointed out, the Keltec P32 and P3AT are both good alternatives for folks that desire lightweight, easy to conceal handguns.  I carry my P32 in a RJ Hedley pocket holster that I've had for several years.  I often pack in in my jeans hip pocket, and it looks and wears just like a wallet.  I've also got some shorts that make the pistol and holster just disappear in the deep front pockets.

[drdougrx]

If you want a small gun, get a Seacamp in .32 or .380 or if you can find one, a Colt Mustang Pocke lite in .380

[rockbilly]

Either is better than a sharp stick (at least from a distance).  I have both a Seacamp and a couple of Colt .25s, they are small and compact, but not much smaller than my Keltec P-9, and the 9mm is a much more effective self defense round.  I would prefer something bigger, but if all I had were a .22 or .25,  I think I would go with the .25.

[Mikey]

Warren:  given all that has been said, they are both marginal for defense but either is better than a sharp stick or a knife.  Both will kill given proper bullet placement but most often will turn away an assailant.  Neither is designed or intended for hard or heavily padded targets - they are both soft tissue calibers.

I have used both in clandestine situations.  Silenced and on unsuspecting targets they can be effective.  Small calibers require a discipline to be effective - that is, continued practice with multiple shots to soft tissue parts of the body.

The 25 is a pistol cartridge, pure and simple.  I can't recall the history of the 22 long rifle but know that 22s began as short barreled revolver cartridges way back in the old days.  The long rifle designation came about when they lengthened the cartridge from the 22 long and began using it as a small game cartridge in rifles. 

I have used both in the Beretta pocket pistols, the 950 (25) and the 21A (22).   I feel the 22 is the better cartridge even though it is a rimfire.  The 22 has more 'carry' to it and can gain some higher velocity even in short barrelled pistols. 

When I first saw your post I called a friend with a 950 and bought him a box of ammo.  I brought out my 21A and we tried a few tests.  I use high speed solids in the 22 and we used solids in the 25.  Neither one penetrates more than a couple of two by 4s at about 15-20'.  But, I have shot through wild turkey at 50 yds with 22 solids and use 22 solids on coyote out to about 75 yds with fatal results. 

For accuracy both are about the same but in shooting at a metallic target at 135m, I can walk the 22 to the gong using what might be called a full front sight picture.  Couldn't hit the gong with the 25 - couldn't walk it that far. 

The advice given about a larger caliber in a smaller handgun is excellent.  Either the 32 acp or the 380 is a much better round.  For that matter, one of the S&W 9 shot 22 revolvers is better than a 22 auto if a misfire is encountered. 

I once knew a older fella from Florida who carried a 25.  He used it a number of times, so he said. He said he never thought anyone he shot died from being hit, at least not immediately, but they all turned away and left after being hit.  He even said he gave one tough guy one to the butt as he was turning to leave just for good measure but it made the guy even angrier so he had to shoot him a 3rd time to get him to leave.  He said he didn't think he put any of the slugs into a area where the assailant would have died from the wound but felt they needed hospital care.  Stories abound of the ineffectiveness of those smaller calibers but so do stories of one shot fatalities. 

If either is all you have then get to know the limitations of what you're shooting.  If you can get something larger, consider it.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[phalanx]

Some Motorcycle jackets have been known to stop a 25 and a 22 ,or slow them down to the point all they do is a surface wound.
An ER nurse we know said the worst bullet wound she ever saw was a 380.
It went through this punks skull and bounced around ,she is a gun owner.
I asked her if she knew what a CZ52 was and she said for the price of the guns they are showing up in the hands of gangs.
She said they were so fast they would only make a hole that was easy to repair.
Then she said they got one in that was a soft point and hit this guys hip bone and fragmented ,she said there was no hip left ,and the guy died pretty fast.
It seems that it is a light bullet ,traveling very fast ,and if it is a soft point any contact with a bone is devastating .
But 357 and some 38s are just as bad.

[W]

Thanks everyone for your comments.
I currently have an old .25 auto that is being looked at to see if it can be repaired at a reasonable price. If not then I will be looking at the kel-tec 32.
I have had 4 instances in 55 years where a gun was well valued at the time.  The first time was while I was backpacking in the Adirondacks of NY back in the late 60's. That night we had a pack of stray dogs barking and howling on the other side of the small pond. Before dark we could see several of them. All I had was my .22 semi-auto rifle. Having that rifle gave me much comfort and allowed us to continue our fishing and camping trip. Luckily the dogs stayed away.
The time I chased a black bear out of the family camp site, all I did was yell at the bear and clapped my hands as I ran at him. Lucky for me, he just ran away to trash someone else camp. I was carrying a .32 auto and was very glad I didn't need to use it.
Another time I was on a back road early in the morning and I was stopped on the side of the road to fill up my water bottles with natural spring water. This guy steps out of the woods carrying an empty plastic milk gallon and asking me where the nearest gas station was. Well this guy just looked wrong to me (my instinct told me this isn't right) so I turned in such a manner that the 38 pistol grip could be seen by him. I know he saw it because his eyes went straight down to that area. After that he backed off and said he would find the gas somewhere else. As he walked away I checked him out in the rear mirror and he was throwing the plastic jug in the woods. I'm quit sure the .38 saved me some serious hurt that day.
Another time I took my wife with me to do some late summer scouting for the next deer season.  We were back 1.5 to 2 miles from any road when all of a sudden a large pack of coyotes surrounded us and all let out a howl .  That sound will send the hairs on the back of your neck straight up. My wife was scared too and when I showed her I had my .25auto everything seem alot better. Having that small pistol at that time and place paid for it's self and then some. She still talks about how glad she was that I had the gun that day.
None of the cases required the weapon to be fired but they did what they were ment to do.
Hopefully I wont have a 5th story to tell.

[gr8ful]

I can personally recommend the Kel-Tec.  My wife and I have both been carrying them full time now for 4+ years without any problems.  We take them to the range regularly and both are solid performers.  If you carry in a pocket it will be necessary to clean more often to remove lint, I have never had a malfunction due to lint, but I don't want to take any chances either.

As far as the .22 vs .25 goes I would lean towards a small DA rev in .22lr  loaded with CCI stingers.  I have an old Iver Johnson 9 shot .22 that has made many trips afield in the top pocket of my fly vest, it is small light and unobtrusive.  I probably couldn't count the snakes, rabbits and cans it has accounted for, and if the need ever arises I wouldn't hesitate to use it for self defense either.  Show me one volunteer willing to take 9 upper torso hits with a .22.

[Savage]

Show me one volunteer willing to take 9 upper torso hits with a .22.

All that proves is that people aren't as stupid as they seem. It in no way represents the effectiveness of the cartridge.

Savage.

[Dixie Dude]

Someone on another forum did a test of .22LR ammo penetrating water filled milk jugs at 50 yards with a rifle.  The Federal Bulk pack copper plated solid round nose bullets penetrated 5 milk jugs.  The CCI stingers only penetrated 3 and went into the 4th one and shed a lot of material doing it.  He was supprised.  Seems the faster bullet exploded quicker and didn't penetrate as much, while the solid penetrated deeper and held together better.  He was looking for a good all-round survival bullet, that in a pinch would penetrate a deer's skull at under 50 yards or penetrate heavy clothing on a 2 legged predator as well as kill rabbits and squirrels.

[Dixie Dude]

This goes back to the old argument that a bigger heavy bullet traveling at a slower speed does less meat damage than a fast smaller bullet, but still penetrates good and does less meat damage, and kills just as quick. 

[kevthebassman]

Regardless, it's not an adequate self defense cartridge.  It will definitely kill someone, but the question is how quick?  If it comes down to me having to defend myself with lethal force, I want something that's going to put big, deep holes in the bad guy and leave him leaking like a sieve.

[SHOOTALL]

had the keltec 32 , after shooting it i realized that i was not comfortable trusting it to stop an attacker as nothing smaller is either IMHO !
but between the 22 and 25 the ones i have owned and shot the 22 was more reliable and to be a failure to stop it must at least go bang !
and one other thing , letting a  little gun show can get you arrested in many places !

[Doublebass73]

The .22 lr should never be on anyone's first choice of SD cartridges. That being said it can be very effective
contrary to what a lot of people say. Bobby Kennedy dropped like a sack of potatoes
with one shot to the head from an Iver Johnson 9 shot .22 lr revolver.

I saw a documentary about the history of body armor. The guy who is credited with being the Henry Ford
of body armor (his name escapes me right now) was inspired to get involved in the manufacture of body armor
in the 1970's because of an incident that happened to him. As a teenager in the late 60's he was delivering pizza
in Chicago. He was held up at gunpoint by 3 robbers. All he had was a 9 shot .22 revolver but he successfully shot
all 3 of his attackers killing 2 of them while the 3rd ran away.

In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

[rockbilly]

Approximately a year ago I read of a similar incident to the one described by doublebase that occurred in Jackson, MS.  After a car chase, a cop was shot by the perp with a .25 from a distance of about 40 yards.  The cop was off duty, in route home from a training session, and was not wearing his vest.  As he sat at an intersection waiting for the light to change he seen a car go by that had just been taken in a carjacking.  Off-duty, but in his patrol car he attempted to stop the car.  After wrecking the car, the perp exited the vehicle through the driver's side window, turned and shot one time hitting the policeman in the lower part of his stomach.  The cop returned fire with his service .40 hitting the perp three times.  The cop died on the spot, (bled to death) while the perp survived and fully recovered from his wounds.

I also sat on a jury several years ago where a woman shot her common law husband, killing him.  He was an abuser, and had beat her earlier that night and left.  When he returned and attempted to beat her again she ran into the bedroom, picked up a single-shot .22 Butler derringer loaded with one .22 short.  She turned and fired hitting the man in the left eye.  The bullet entered the brain cavity and bounced around turning it into mush.  He was dead on the spot.

The point is, anyone can get lucky with a small gun, and often there are extenuating circumstances where people walk away, even after being shot numerous times with a big bore gun. But by enlarge, the majority of the time the .22 and .25 are ineffective while the big bores normally render a perp down and out.

[SHOOTALL]

Rochabilly , you made the case against the mouse gun , the cop died but lived long enough to fight !
killing and stopping are different ! In a fight to stop NOW is the objective ! anything less is no good !
I can't understand the mind set that demands a 38 spl. or larger in most cases but uses a mouse gun in others .
The idea of matching a cal. to the crowd makes no sense to me , if you get in a fight you should have a weapon that will end the threat no matter the crowd you happen to be in ! IMHO !

[cybin]

Personally I prefer a .380 for carry, but I also carry on occasion a Beretta 950, in .25. A friend of mine has a holster that looks like a wallet that he carries his beretta 950 in-in his back pocket. When it is drawn it allows you access to the hammer to cock the piece with, and a port on the wallet/holster for the empties to eject from, and I should add I guess a hole for your finger to reach the trigger. But from the outside of his pants it looks like just any other mans wallet.

 I carry my beretta in a pocket holster that clips to my pocket when wearing a long shirt, or else I clip it into the waist band of my pants just to the right of my zipper in front for easy access. It doesn't show. I have also a .22 derringer that I can carry, I use a cut off eye glass pouch that looks like I have a pair of eye glasses in my pocket when it is clipped to my pocket, only the top 1/3 of the eye glass pouch shows.

 I have some glazer bullets for the .25 that I'm wanting to try out to see how they work. Once it gets warm --and light in the mornings on my way to work I'll be looking for a dead possum or racoon that isn't too torn up, and fresh. I'll put it on a fence post and shoot it to see how the glazers preform compared to the solids. Glazers are supposed to be really good stoppers in .380 and up calibers, but I have read nothing about how they work in smaller calibers.

[Old Griz]

Original question: between the .22 or .25, I'd go with the higher velocity .22LR. Too many times a .25 has been stopped cold by clothing, ribs, or simply bounced off heads. The .22 isn't perfect either, but better. Please follow the advise given by others and get at least a .32 or .380. Better yet, a .38.

Regarding the FA .22, I have one friend that has one, and it is really a belly gun. At 7.5 yards he is lucky to get it on the paper. Three feet or less is required in order to guarantee a hit.

I'm glad Ruger is coming out with their Kel-Tek clone. My wife has a P3AT and it is not a reliable gun. Some folks have great results with the Kel-Tek, so it is hit or miss. I'm hoping the Ruger will be a better product. I sometimes carry a S&W 638 Airweight. I know the .38+P out of a 2" barrel isn't the greatest man-stopper out there, but I trust the little revolver to work well and not jam.

[S.S.]

whichever you choose,
make sure to check what is the legal way to carry it..
In the pocket is not legal in some states nor is an ankle holster.
Belt or shoulder holster only where I live.
If not carried properly, the permit will mean nothing.

[Savage]

SS,
Never heard of such foolishness. I don't doubt that it's true, it's just beyond belief for me! If you don't mind saying, what state would have such a law?
Savage

[rockbilly]

I think that must be the state of Confusion, or could it be the state of Insanity?  Hummmm.....I'd bet it is one or the other.