SHERMAN?

[m-g Willy]

Not try'n to start a war here.
But ! Is there any real proof beyond what was passed down through the years about Sherman's men raping and killing innocent civilians in his march through GA.?
I think his reputation was greatly exaggerated when it comes to crimes committed by his men.
Sort of like the Jap civilians in WWII when they threw theirselves off cliffs when the US troops were moving in because of the false info they had heard about our troops being the next thing to monsters.



Willy

[phalanx]

m-g willy :
You do know that when Grant stepped into the rank he was given , He went back to Ohio looking for his old friend Sherman.
Only to find him in an Asylum ,being treated for depression and suicide tendency's.
As far as the other charge ,there were accounts of it ,But over the years it was accredited to deserters running in bands ,Thrown together units of volunteers not attached to the regular Army ,seeking only profit ,and revenge.
Some that were caught were even Southerners ,in stolen uniforms knowing the people of Georgia would blame the North.
Photos of an execution of these men by the South caused outrage in the North.
A dispatch from Sherman to a Confederate Commander ,explained to him that these men were not of his Army ,and if he didn't shoot them he would.
Oh i am not saying Sherman was a nice guy ,the opposite is the case ,But lieing was never one of his vises.

[ironfoot]

"You do know that when Grant stepped into the rank he was given , He went back to Ohio looking for his old friend Sherman.
Only to find him in an Asylum ,being treated for depression and suicide tendency's."

Where did you get that from?

Read this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman

[phalanx]

The old PBS special ,,The Civil War ,,By Ken Burns .
Volume two ,A very Bloody Affair.
Yes Grant was anointed , and Officers from the field told Lincoln ,This man is a drunk !!
But i guess Lincoln had had enough of Mc Clellan losing his Butt ,so he said ,,,find out what he is drinking ,and give it to the rest of my Officers .
Here comes the flames :
Lincoln hedged his bets on a drunk and a nut case ,i guess it worked.
A couple of Pit Bulls ,with no demeanor ,not like the Gentlemen LEE and Jackson.
But he had to win this War.
Military Decision ! Free the slaves ,yea right ,Lincoln knew that by freeing these people he could gain popularity ,and make it sound like a just cause.
OH he didn't mention that it would cause rebellion ,and descent in the Ranks of his enemy did he ?
Plus add three Army's of dedicated ,revenge motivated ,troops to his Army?
An Army that at the time of his proclamation were getting their butts kicked.
More Flame:
At the end of the War ,Before he was killed ,Lincoln asked Congress to allow the slaves to return to their country's .
With re-construction and the westward migration ,The country could not afford to assimilate the ex slaves into the grand scheme of things.
Lincoln died ,Grant took over ,he felt the same way ,but trouble was in the west and Congress needed the troops.
Point:
Don't think Lincoln ,or the WAR was about slavery ,the South was already moving away from that.
The war was about states rights ,PERIOD. as with today.
Grant inherited a toilet ,Re-construction ,westward movement ,Indian wars ,paying for the wars ,Displaced Veterans with only one skill .
Some say he was the best President we ever had ,I agree ,not what he did in the War ,but what he had to deal with after the War.
Find out what it was he was drinking ,and give it to Congress.

[ironfoot]

The South was not moving away from slavery. The South was trying to expand slavery into the territories. The Dredd Scott decision had the effect of legalizing slavery throughout the Union, including the free states. That was Lincoln's motivation to reenter politics, on an anti slavery platform. Lincoln's debates with Douglas and Lincoln's Cooper's Union speech established Lincoln's anti slavery position. When Lincoln was elected on an anti slavery Republican platform, the slave states seceded to protect their "property" interests in slavery. Lincoln knew he could not, legally, outlaw slavery, just as a current President cannot outlaw abortion. However Lincoln had every intent to prevent slavery from expanding into the territories. The South knew that, so they rebelled. During the war Lincoln could legally issue the Emancipation Proclamation, because you can deprive the enemy of it's property in war time. Lincoln tried to explore various ways of dealing with ending slavery, and what to do with the freed slaves. Relocation was one consideration. In a time when Indians were being relocated, the idea of relocating freed slaves probably did not seem extreme. Lincoln later gave a speech and stated that at least some of the freed slaves, such as those who had served in the military, should be granted the right to vote. Booth heard that speech, and was so outraged he began his plan to kill Lincoln.

I saw the Burn's documentary too. I am not saying your statement about Grant finding Sherman in an insane asylum is inaccurate, but I do not recall that, and it is not mentioned in the link I provided above. Is there any documentation of that available on the internet?

[doc_kreipke]

When Grant became supreme commander, Sherman was already an officer in the Union Army of Tennessee. So, it doesn't make any sense that Grant would have gone looking for him in Ohio.

Now, in the early 1860's, there were a number of newspaper articles that accused Sherman of being insane. (Kennett: Sherman: A Soldier's Life, pp 141 - 145.) But I can't find any evidence that Sherman was ever committed to an insane asylum.

[phalanx]

Ken Burns ,Volume two  ,unless he was wrong ,we watched it last week end
Me nor Mr .Burns said Grant was already in the rank he was in during the war ,nor did we say it was an insane asylum ,only that he was under a Doctors care for Depression ,in an Asylum,he could have still been an Officer and went home for some quiet ,it was only said that is where Grant caught up with him.
That isn't the first account of that i have heard ,they were both from Ohio ,friends in the academy.
Perhaps Grant wanted someone he knew he could trust ?
In the same volume it said that the only fatality of Fort Sumter ,was a mule ,And how Beauregard somewhat acted on his own.
An Asylum can be for ,as disease ,an illness ,or they even have Religious asylums ,but no one said ,Committed.
Bills were introduced into the Confederate congress to allow Blacks the same rights as indentured servants.
To buy their freedom , even at near the end of the War didn't the South say that any Black man who fights for the South will be granted his freedom ?
Many Blacks sighed up feeling the place they only knew was with a family that had been good to them ,and were afraid of the North.
The Hunley , during its construction so many men were pulled away for duty on the line ,Black slaves were donated to the project.
I still do not believe Lincoln freed slaves out of the goodness of his Heart , The military aspect makes a lot more sense.

[ironfoot]

"I still do not believe Lincoln freed slaves out of the goodness of his Heart , The military aspect makes a lot more sense."

Have you read his Cooper's Union speech or the Lincoln/Douglas debates?

Here is the Cooper's Union speech. I don't know how anybody could read it and doubt the sincerity of Lincoln's anti slavery credentials.
The South believed he was anti slavery, and seceded when he was elected President.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

Here are the Lincoln/Douglas debates:


http://www.nps.gov/archive/liho/debates.htm

[phalanx]

Well the Royal Navy would capture ships transporting slaves ,yet England didn't much care for Lincoln ,feeling his intentions were less than believable.
All through the War Lincoln feared them getting involved ,but with them i believe it was all economics.
Also the freeing of the slaves seemed to happen at a time convenient to it being more of a Military / Political decision.
This is how it was perceived in the English Press.
France also kept an eye on the War ,she had certain interest in and around New Orleans.
After the blockade ,Mexico toyed with the idea of allowing ships supplying the south to dock in her ports ,and supplies to flow into Texas.
Lincoln was very close to having this War expand ,The South was seeking international recognition as an independent country.

[lance]

Not try'n to start a war here.
But ! Is there any real proof beyond what was passed down through the years about Sherman's men raping and killing innocent civilians in his march through GA.?
I think his reputation was greatly exaggerated when it comes to crimes committed by his men.
Sort of like the Jap civilians in WWII when they threw theirselves off cliffs when the US troops were moving in because of the false info they had heard about our troops being the next thing to monsters.



Willy

i'm not here to start a war either,but if you want to read a book about Sherman's men, pick up a copy of: War Crimes Against Southern Civilians, you can google the book name lot's of bookdealers have it. i did read it and to the best of my memory seems like there is some info on Union rape charges and military trials. you'll just have to read it yourself, i don't have a copy to check through for info, it was a borrowed book.

[jamesrus]

Yep Lincoln, the great emancipator, he freed the slaves. In a country that was no longer his, which had seceeded from the Union of states, in a legal manner which was set up in the constitution. But did you notice the Emancipation Proclamation did NOT free slaves that were still held in the North? And yes, there were still slaves held in the north at the time. Did you also notice in the debates talked about above that Lincoln was a racist? Did you read in the debates where he did not believe that blacks were the equal of nor would they ever be the equal of whites? Did you read where he believed in the repatriation of the blacks to Africa? Some of the slaves and ex slaves had never seen Africa, Some had been born right here and did not want to go back to Africa. Granted, staying a slaves wasnt much better. But leaving everything you know to go somewhere you dont speak the language, dont know how to survive, was somehow better? Yeah, right.

Jamesrus

[Moss88hunter]

I read somewhere that Lincoln owned slaves too. Was that just a false statement?

Evan

[doc_kreipke]

Mary Lincoln came from a slave-owning family. Neither she nor Abe ever owned any, however.

[ironfoot]

I read somewhere that Lincoln owned slaves too. Was that just a false statement?

Evan

Yes that was a false statement.

It seems that some will go to any means to vilify Lincoln, who was anti slavery and pro Union.

[ironfoot]

Mary Lincoln came from a slave-owning family. Neither she nor Abe ever owned any, however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Todd_Lincoln

[Moss88hunter]

I had read that somewhere, but asked here to see if there was any truth behind it. Thanks Doc and Ironfoot for setting me straight.

Evan

[Ga.windbreak]

Not try'n to start a war here.
But ! Is there any real proof beyond what was passed down through the years about Sherman's men raping and killing innocent civilians in his march through GA.?
I think his reputation was greatly exaggerated when it comes to crimes committed by his men.
Sort of like the Jap civilians in WWII when they threw theirselves off cliffs when the US troops were moving in because of the false info they had heard about our troops being the next thing to monsters.



Willy

Here is your answer Willy:

After Atlanta, Sherman began his march south, declaring that he could "make Georgia howl". Initially disregarding Hood's army moving into Tennessee, he boasted that if Hood moved north he (Sherman) would "give him rations" as "my business is down south." He quickly, however, had to send an army back to deal with Hood.[44] Sherman marched with 62,000 men to the port of Savannah, Georgia, living off the land and causing, by his own estimate, more than $100 million in property damage.[45] Sherman called this harsh tactic of material war "hard war", which is now, in modern times, known as total war.[46] At the end of this campaign, known as Sherman's March to the Sea, his troops captured Savannah on December 22, 1864. Sherman then telegraphed Lincoln, offering him the city as a Christmas present.

[Ga.windbreak]

I read somewhere that Lincoln owned slaves too. Was that just a false statement?

Evan

Yes that was a false statement.

It seems that some will go to any means to vilify Lincoln, who was anti slavery and pro Union.

No one has to use any means to vilify your Mr. Lincoln. He does quite nicely with his own mouth.

But yes that was a false statement.

From Lincoln's own mouth, first on the president having war making powers:

"Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose – and you allow him to make war at pleasure.... If, today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, 'I see no probability of the British invading us' but he will say to you 'be silent; I see it, if you don't.' The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood." ~ Representative Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to his longtime law partner William H. Herndon, denouncing the trickery of President Polk in provoking the Mexican War of 1848. The claims of the current president in regards to the alleged threat posed by Iraq are a fulfilment of Lincoln's warning about presidential despotism, which he later had the leading hand in bringing about.

"The power confided in me, will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property, and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion – no using of force against, or among the people anywhere.... You can have no conflict, without being yourselves the aggressors." ~ Lincoln's ultimatum to the South: basically it states, pay tribute to the North or failure to do so will be interpreted as a declaration of war, by the South, against the North.

And from his own mouth again on secession:

"...they [the South] commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully, withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State." ~ Lincoln, in his Special Message to Congress July 4 1861.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements." ~ Lincoln January 12 1848, expressing the near-universally held Jeffersonian principle, before Lincoln unilaterally destroyed it, that no state could claim its inhabitants as its property.