Author Topic: 9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.  (Read 1799 times)

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Offline H666

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« on: July 02, 2003, 03:36:47 AM »
I tried out teh Glock 20 10mm the other day and I can't help but wondering why law enforcement agencies all over the world maintain this strict policy of using 9mm handguns.  Surely there are some who have broke out of the circle, but I'm a cop myself, and I'm telling you the 10mm outmatches the 9mm in every aspect of the test.  Fellow law enforcers, whaddaya say? :biggun:
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Offline Mikey

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9 vs 10
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2003, 04:37:46 AM »
H666:  I'm not in law enforcement but I am a devoted fan of a 10mm bore.  Notice I said 10mm bore, not necessarily the 40 Short and weak or the 10mm.  I developed a bottle-necked 10mm cartridge based on the 45 ACP case in the late 70s.  Cor-Bon hypes their 400 Cor-Bon as the first and only but their case chambers in my barrels whereas mine won't chamber in theirs.

I developed mine to shoot metallic silhouette and hunt big game.  I developed mine to handle heavier loads than the Cor-Bon cartridge.  I have had great success on the silhouette range and in the field.  One of my favorite loads, that seemed to shoot very easily from my pistol was with a 180 grain cast semi-wadcutter (Keith style for the 38-40) at about 1200'/sec.  If I wanted to loads that down to about 1100'/sec it woudl have made an excellent Police load, in the Elmer Keith mode, and I agree.  

With the current 10mm loads, you are a bit underpowered for the cartridge's capability unless you find factory loads with 180 grain bullets to about 1200'/sec.  Understand that for Police work those will penetrate the human torso through and through and create the hazard  of overpenetration.  In that regard the 40 S&W, carrying milder loads has better application for Police work, but only in that regard.

The 40 S&W is loaded to just about it's maximum capability to get 165s and 180s out at 1000 - 1100'/sec and you can't really push that cartridges pressure capabilities much further, as it's at about max pressure for the platforms it is shot from.  The 10mm is bigger, longer and is fired from heftier platforms that will allow that cartridge to maximize it's potential in an autoloader.  

I like the 10mm bore because it shoots a fatter bullet than the 9mm.  The 9s can be loaded to velocity levels that will flatten their target with a single well placed hit.  Unfortunately, too many Police agencies refuse to use 9mm loads to that capability, leaving their officers vulnerable.  But, please also note that I said 'well placed hit'.  In that regard, any cartridge of sufficient power will do the job when the bullet is placed right and in so many shooting failures that is more the culprit that the cartridge's capability.  I used a 9mm in Vietnam for a while and it worked as well as any other ball ammo did - that is, you just kept shooting until your target went down.  True, the 45 is a bigger bullet but fmj projectiles often penetrate without much target reaction.  If you make a flatpoint, functional hollow-point or sufficiently penetrating soft point of them they fare much better.  That's what I like about the bottle-neck design - you can shoot that stuff all day long without failure to feed, and the target reaction is much more noticeable.

I would like to see if that Glock can be throated to handle semi-wadcutter bullets of the Keith design - that would make it a capable load for whitetail out to 50 yds or so.  Also, some of the other cast bullets for the 38-40, like the 170 grain round nose flat-point might also work well in that pistol.

I think ya dun good H.  I like the 10s and think you will enjoy yours.  You may wish to think about a set of heavier recoil springs from Wolfe - they would allow you to shoot those hotter loads and still have a wrist that will allow you to hold a cup of coffee without it looking like a tidal wave pool.

Just my 2 cents, free.  This be Mikey.

Offline Ron T.

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2003, 04:54:12 AM »
I’m not a “fellow law officer”, but I agree…

The 10mm is a LOT more cartridge than the 9x19mm Luger cartridge.  But chances are, you’re an experience “shooter” and so, the rather heavy recoil of a full-blown 10mm doesn’t bother you all that much, but I can guarantee you it would bother a lot of your fellow law enforcement officers… just as it bothers a good many shooters.

The 10mm, like the .45ACP, doesn’t come back down on target as easily or quickly like the less powerful 9mm does… and the recoil of the 9mm isn’t in the same class as either the 10mm or .45 ACP.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer to have a 10mm or a .45 ACP if trouble came my way, but let’s face it, the 9mm is much easier to handle and get back on target for a 2nd shot if one is necessary.  Unfortunately, the 9mm isn’t the “one-shot-stopper” the 10mm or the .45 ACP is and for that reason alone, the 10mm is the preferred round.

Unfortunately, the FBI agents couldn’t take the 10mm’s recoil… that’s why the .40 caliber S&W was “born”.  It’s a 10mm case cut down in powder capacity, but still a better round than the 9mm Luger cartridge.


Strength & Honor…

Ron T.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  - Thomas Jefferson

Offline bfoster

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2003, 07:41:11 AM »
Here in Morrow County, Ohio there isn't a single law enforcement agency that currently requires more than yearly qualification. The training budgets are absolutely unequal too the task of maintaining skills, let alone building them.

Bob

Offline Flint

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nine and ten
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2003, 07:44:25 AM »
Unfortunately, most police are limited not to what makes sense, but what the City laws allow them to carry.  Most are dictated by the city government or Police Commission, probably on a PC basis to as small a caliber as they can get the PD to agree to.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2003, 04:06:16 AM »
Ron T:  thanks man, I always wondered where the Feds got their limp wrists from, and now I know.  Do ya think that's what's called the 'Hoover Wrist'?  Mikey here.

Offline H666

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2003, 02:20:33 AM »
I've never tried the .40 cal.  What size bullet, cartridge and load are we talking about?
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Offline broken arrow

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2003, 04:33:13 AM »
My department used the venerable Beretta 92F in several variants from 1990 until 2002 when we transitioned to the H&K USP .45. I know our department stayed with the amatiated 9mm. because of cost. It was expensive to outfit 100 + officers with new weapons and leather. I am not a fan of the 9 mm. and never was. For a primary duty weapon it was sorely lacking. We have all heard the horror stories of numerous shots to disable a suspect. And I don't care what the purists say, even with perfect shot placement the wound channel from a .45/.40/10mm/.357 is obviously more traumatic. I would carry 9mm. on my ankle as a backup, off duty/concealed. I am pleased with the .45 acp I currently carry although my first choice is the .40 155 gr. hydrashok J.H.P. I carry that in my Sig P-229. It's lighter than my H&K .45 resulting in quicker target aquisition and let's face it a full size .45 U.S.P. with three mags and all those .45 rounds is freakin' HEAVY. It digs into your hips after a couple of hours. quality, comfort, concealability, ballistic effectiveness,capacity and versatility are my priorities. The 92f failed four. My Sig p-229 .40 wins em' all.
"Cowards die many times before their death, The valiant never taste of death but once."

Offline broken arrow

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2003, 04:42:31 AM »
I didn't realize you were up there till after I posted. I lived in Keflavik for several years. If I had an opportunity, I'd go back in a heartbeat! My family was stationed at the N.A.T.O. base there. Tell Hekla I send my regards!
"Cowards die many times before their death, The valiant never taste of death but once."

Offline H666

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2003, 01:40:11 PM »
Broken Arrow:

Hekla said "Skilaðu kveðju, við sjáumst seinna", hope you know what that means.
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Offline KING

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2003, 04:49:23 PM »
:D H666.....I was a police officer for 32 years,and also a firearms instructer for a lot of those years.  I fully understand your argument,but........................You have to remember that we have to hire from the general population. 30 years ago we almost all knew how to shoot,now,it is a very small percentage of those that are hired.  Also those that do not shoot,and inturn give them a hard recoiling handgun is going to be a problem( I personally dont think it recoils hard at all,but that is me)  I have trained several hundreds of officers,on both city departments,and county agencies and all agencies had a percentage of those that had problems mastering the little 9mm much less something like the 10mm.  We switched to the .40 several years ago,about three prior to my retirement,and we had enough trouble with the Pass/Fail system with the officers that were used to the 9mm(G17.19).  We also wre supposed to shoot for requal every six months,but that itself seemed to be a problem also.  Several of those that changed to the .45 also had thier percentage of problems.  I understand that it is generally the training that is involved ,but ours was very intensive and some just had to be run through several times in order to qual with the larger calibers.  I carry a 10mm a lot of the time,along with a G19,22 and have no problems handling either of them in a situations that ware a little less that social.  Also we train for multiple shots on the BG,and the 10 would cause problems on a rapid,controlled second,third.....................etc. shot.  It is not necessarily the nature of the beast(10mm) but small officers have ,inturn small hands,.I think that you can fill in the rest........stay safe.................King :-D  :-D
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Offline H666

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2003, 11:03:33 AM »
King, you have made an excellent point.  In the 21st century, cops aren't as big as they were when most of you started out.
Now I have been shooting nearly all my life, but not with handguns until I joined the force (4 years ago).  I stand 176 cm, I weigh 75 kg. and I have relatively small hands.
But the size of ones hands or muscles do not in all cases determine whether the shooter will get hurt by the gun.  When I was 12 years old I shot a 12 ga. better than most adults around me.  It's all in the wrist, but it's not for everyone to get a hold on.  

Thanks for replys on the post guys, I'm learning alot.  Please indulge a little small town cop in Iceland.
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Offline Mikey

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King and H666
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2003, 03:38:58 AM »
Fellas:  I just saw something in one of the gun magazines that I thought was very interesting.  It was a new Beretta 92 with a differently shaped grip.  I had handled a few of the standard or military 92s and didn't like the feel of them because of the shape of the grip.  This new one looks like it carrys a grip somewhat similar to those on the 1911 but with a flat mainspring housing - as I have my 1911s dressed.  

Granted the 92 is mostly in 9mm configuration but if they offer this grip style in a Beretta that houses the 10mm cartridge I'm likely to have to beg the Judge for more room on my permit.  

King, in reading your responses to H666 I agree a lot with your experience and your position on training officers in the art of the handgun but now I wonder if something like that new Beretta, if they offer it in a 10mm, might not better suit H666???  Just a thought.  Mikey.

Offline broken arrow

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9mm vs. 10mm in law enforcement.
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2003, 04:09:12 AM »
The Beretta 92 chambered for 10mm. would be a VAST improvement over the 9mm. In fact, that's an excellent round for the Beretta considering it's size. I've never liked the little sub-compact Glock 10mm. Way too much of a round for such a little gun. a Beretta 10mm. would be an excellent service weapon if the shooter was comfortable with it, and strong enough to handle that round.
       I conceed that departments have to take what they can get from the general population. We have hired people with criminal backgrounds, mental problems that have been glossed over, and none of them have broken into the top ten qualification scores in the past 6 years. That says alot about marksmanship. The training and instructor staff are the same as they were when I was trained, just reflecting the normal updates. It's a sad state of affairs, here anyway, It used to mean something when you were selected out of a pool of a hundred applicants, now,......
"Cowards die many times before their death, The valiant never taste of death but once."

Offline H666

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10 mm beretta
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2003, 02:55:14 PM »
Thanks Mikey, took the words right outta my mouth.  I'd like to shoot a 10mm 92.
I sport a hefty 11-87 for my benefit as a proud waterfowler......