Author Topic: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.  (Read 894 times)

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Offline Dee

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In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« on: January 27, 2008, 11:02:29 AM »
In 1895 when the Model 94 Winchester & the 3030 cartridge was introduced as the first smokeless rifle round, it was touted as the flattest shooting rifle on the market in that period.
Tom Horn even went out and bought one, and made a pretty good living using one as a "sniper rifle". That is, until they hung him. Big game was taken around the globe with it, and it is STILL popular in some European countries as a big game getter.
As we American hunters have evolved, so have our weapons AND so have some of our  "definitions", at lest to some they have.
In it's day the 3030 was considered MORE than adequate for anything in North America in the way of game, though none would argue for a charging Grizzly something heavier would be nice. But in that regard, a 12 guage shotgun with slugs is more than enough for that chore, and it's been around as long as the 3030. But that is not what I am talking about here.
The 3030 back then, was some what WEAKER in the loading than it is now, and the so called experts of the day, loved the cartridge, and some seasoned hunters such as myself, still do. Am I an expert? No, but I have been shooting it since about 1957, when my late father bought the one I have been shooting all these years, and still shoot.
Will it still take down the game it took (including Elk, moose, bison, and so on) years ago, and up until about 20 years ago when the bolt guns really started coming on. Of course.
Will it shoot 350 yards across a canyon and nail an elk, in mid stride. Not reliably. It was never intended to do that. i.e. Moot point.

But let's look at what "DEFINITIONS" of certain terms have changed, along with our (some's) rifles.

"FAIR CHASE", used to mean, locating and then, "STALKING" the game, to within a reasonable range of say, 25 to 250 yards and taking the game. Will the 3030 do this? Yep, and the new bullets available make the 3030 better than ever.
FAIR CHASE "now" to some, means sitting on a canyon rim with a big set of binoculars or a spotting scope, OR BOTH, a "hot rod" rifle mostly magnums, (and no I am not criticizing your magnum, I personally don't give a damn what you shoot, it's your business) with a LARGE magnification scope (usually a variable), a set of bi pods, and even sometimes a "shooting table". They glass the area, locate the animal they want, crank up the scope, check the yardage with a range finder, hold up their wind gage, and set the bullet drop compensator on the scope, of the "hot rod" rifle they carried' or "hauled" to the location. Then "shoot" the animal. "FAIR CHASE"?

Rifles have changed, equipment has changed, sighting systems have changed, equipment has been INVENTED, that take much of the effort out of the hunt, and in many ways, sometimes entirely "ELIMINATE" stalking. Kind of the way a motor home takes the camping out of camping, making the CAMPER far more comfortable than if he were in a tent. But is it still camping, or just a change of scenery.
So when one says "FAIR CHASE", one must look at the party saying "FAIR CHASE", and his "DEFINITION" of "FAIR CHASE". Many say; JUST ASK ANY GUIDE! Weeeellll, the guide makes his living off clients. The more clients, the better the living. The "faster the hunt ends" the sooner he gets another client. Get the picture? So, I don't see the "guide" as the person to ask about "FAIR CHASE". His opinion might be just a little "jaundiced" as to what "FAIR CHASE" might be defined as.

This topic will no doubt INCITE the EXPERT ELETE (which usually only means more modern in technology) hunter, and remind the old farts such as myself, of a time when "FAIR CHASE" no matter where in the U.S. you were hunting, involved considerably more CHASE, and cartridges such as the 3030 worked just fine. Oh, and by the way. The pictures of those yesteryear hunts PROVE, the trophies where just as big, and just as PRIZED. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Kurt L

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2008, 12:52:46 PM »
Dee: very Interesting!
Myself I have had a few and still have a 1894-1994 that I gave my boy.and they have killed many deer.
you will laugh at this story, I did anyway. grandpa was tacking my boy and his cousin out for the youth hunt and my boy just had to spend his money on a rossi single shot 243 so the asked if his cousin could use the 30-30, the hunt went fine,then rifle deer season came and he wanted to use the 30-30 again to go hunt with grandpa and this is the best part grandpa shot 3 times at a deer with his 30-06 and missed ( because his scope was off) and grabbed the 30-30 to shoot it. So another one fell to a 30-30 and I realy like to shoot them also. I am really thinking on a barrel for my encore for 30-30 so I can use a bunch of my 375 win cases and load up
some stiff rounds in the encore with ballistic tips or something to play around with.
KURT LGo TO RIFLE RED RYDER SUPER MAG CARBINE

Offline burntmuch

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 12:53:22 PM »
I agree the 30/30 is a fine round.  But It seems to me that you used that to open up an attack on the "MAGNUM" hunters.  Olld arguement.  The longest shot Ive ever made on game is 150 or so yards. HANDI 308.  Most of my shots have been between 70 & 120 yards. The 30/30 would cover 99.9 % of my hunting . BUT in my opinoin if the guy works his ass off to get into position for that 300 yard shot. Then works his ass off to get that game back to the truck ,Thats fair chase.. Now my safe would be pretty boring if all I kept was a 30/30.     TO date                                            

                                                                                                  
                                             7rem mag  ( The only one in the safe I wouldnt sell ) ;D ;D ;D
                                             243
                                             50 cal ML x 2
                                             .45 kimber 1911
                                             357 ruger sp101
                                            44 B/P revolver
                                            357 max
                                           35 rem
                                           35 whelen
                                           45/70 


  No 30/30s right now          The tool you use doesnt determine Fair Chase  
I dont care what gun Im using as long as Im hunting

Offline Dee

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 02:02:02 PM »
2nd paragraph, 4th sentence (in parenthesises) concerning your magnum. I knew someone would call it an attack.
DEFINITION of "FAIR CHASE" is the key to this topic. What some call "FAIR CHASE" is far from it, to others. The gun writers in "my opinion" have sold a bill of goods to a lot of people concerning this definition, and it has been distorted further by many others.
Seldom is an animal on alert from a shooter 300 or 400 yards away. The animal many times isn't on alert even if he SEES the shooter at that range. Just my experience.
I have shot coyotes from 7 feet to beyond 500 yards, and once they hit about the 250 yard mark they have a tendency to feel fairly safe.
It's all about one's DEFINITION concerning this term "FAIR CHASE". No one is being attacked. Just looking for opinions.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 08:09:05 AM »
Oconnor made extended pack trips thru the Rockies and rarely saw other hunters. The game he sought was unsophisticated compared to todays animals.  Now they have stop signs on the National Forest roads and the game is ever so much more wary and the woods ever so much more crowed.  A non resident hunter on a DIY elk hunt on public land would be ill equipped with a 30-30. No doubt about it. And the wise hunter adapts to changing conditions.
The 94 and the 30-30 was designed not to be lightning in a bottle as so many of it champions profess but as an instrument to lay down a field of fire.  There were many cartridges that were much more powerful. But they were single shots.  And the indians had this kinda neat habit of waiting until the rifle had been fired and then rushing the shooter and taking his hair along with his life. Thus the evolution of the repeater rifle and the 30-30 was about the maximum that the 94 action could handle.
Just like the Inuits killing polar bears with .223's, I think that elk and grizzlies were killed with 30-30's because that is what they had at hand.  I know if a grizzly was coming to fetch me and I had a .50 buffalo gun in my hands, I wouldn't throw it down to grab my thutty-thutty.  It doesn't take a whole lot to kill a WT deer. Assuming a person can hit a pie plate at 100 yards. And most 30-30's are capable of that. 
Jack Oconnor said the .270 was magic. And, as I found out, you don't doubt Jack Oconnor.  And that is what keeps the thutty-thutty going.  Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, on to contemporary icons, packing their 94's, of course in thutty-thutty. Shooting guns out of villain's hands, hats off of heads, hangman's ropes from hero's necks. The list goes on and on.  We were raised watching amazing shoots made at amazing distances so who are we to question the effectiveness nor accuracy of the awesome thutty-thutty.
Actually, I've only owned two 30-30's. One a Model 340, a bolt rifle which, surprisingly was pretty accurate.  What become of it, I don't have the slightest idea.  And one model 94 which I bought as trade goods and kept about a week.
I'm not gonna get into this "fair chase" thing. It's just another play on words like "free range" and "high fence" and such. Everybody gets to define it like they wish and all it does is generate heat and no light.  I've killed deer at 20-40 yards that didn't have the slightest idea that I was even on the planet. . 

Offline Brithunter

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 01:08:02 AM »
Quote
In 1895 when the Model 94 Winchester & the 3030 cartridge was introduced as the first smokeless rifle round, it was touted as the flattest shooting rifle on the market in that period.

Maybe in the US but elsewhere there were flatter shooting smokeless cartridges and rifles already in use. The Steyr model 1892 in 6.5x53R for one the .303 British for another and of course the 7mm Mauser which was introduced in 1892. The 30-30 is an excellent and efficient cartridge but let's put it into context.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 02:35:41 AM »
FAIR ok !
CHASE ?  wouldn't that involve chasing ?
fair sniping ?
fair game ! sometimes hunting and shooting are combined and sometimes not , i can enjoy sitting and sniping an animal and also chasing it and shooting it .
i have the most fun chasing . the term fair chase today only means the animal is not restricted from escape ! i can live with that ! so whether one shoots from 50 or 500 yards if the animal didn't know you were there it is of little concern . the guy who closed the 450 yards displayed hunting skill while the other displayed shooting skill , what ever floats their boat is good by me !
the thing about the 30/30 in the hands of a skilled marksman it will shine and in the hands of a seasoned hunter it will shine and if one man is both you end up with one of the most efficient man/gun combo's known to the hunting field !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 02:48:01 AM »
That's a fact SHOOTALL whether any one else agrees or not. The ribs surrounding the heart and lungs of a 1000 lb elk, are no harder to get thru than those of a south Texas Whitetail.
It just goes all the way down to one's definition of "fair chase".
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 03:26:11 AM »
Dee how much more power does a 300 win mag have at 500 yards than a 30/30 say out to 100 yards ? shoot far or stalk close !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 06:11:50 AM »
At 500 yards, the 300 winnie has over twice the energy as the 30-30 at 100 yards.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 06:58:58 AM »
Guess i better get a new Winchester cat. cause they list the 30/30 150 silver tip at 100 yards as having 1356 energy and the 300 win mag at 500 yards as having 925 , in the one i have !
it would only be fair to compare like bullets IMHO !
so the basic difference is a little walk in the country ! sorta speak ! fair CHASE if you will !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: In Defense of the 3030 and Others.
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 07:54:53 AM »
 ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett