Author Topic: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant (Read 8205 times)

beemanbeme · « **Reply #30 on:** January 29, 2008, 06:04:57 AM »

When the Mountain Rifle first came out, I got one in .280 and it was a sight to behold. Beautiful rifle. Sleek. But, try as I might, I couldn't get that thin, whippy barrel to consistantly shoot under 1.5". I took it out west and that .280 with a 150gr bullet killed antelope and mulies like the Hammer of Thor. But I just couldn't get past the fact that it wouldn't shoot under that 1.5" off the bench so I traded it in on a standard 700 in .280 with a Euro stock. That rifle is kinda plain jane looking but it shoots .75-1.00" and I still have it.

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2008, 06:10:09 AM »

Quote from: kevthebassman on January 29, 2008, 03:18:13 AM

... Why is it that one company can pump out $400 rifles that generally shoot MOA, but other companies charge $600-$700 for rifles that don't shoot as well? ...

Or, what if the $600 - $700 rifle shoots the same or even a tad better than the $400 model? Do the results justify the additional cost?

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #32 on:** January 29, 2008, 07:02:49 AM »

Not in my book but you'll never know unless you try both, and this is generally impossible to do unless you buy both or several and shoot them all, keeping the best shooter. The interesting thing, though is you will sometimes find the $400 rifles that will shoot better than the more expensive ones. It kind of all comes together occasionally when least expected.

jvs · « **Reply #33 on:** January 29, 2008, 10:55:58 AM »

A rifle that shoots a ragged hole proves absolutely nothing when it comes to practical application. You can shoot all you want under very controlled circumstances from the bench and all it proves is that if you hit 3 inches higher at a nice buck, it was your fault.

I am beginning to wonder if it is a confidence issue on the part of the person using it, not with the rifle.

I have a Marlin .35 Lever gun that never could shoot better than 2 1/2 inch groups using Remington CoreLokts. But that gun and load has got more deer than any other one in my cabinet. To listen to some here, I would be better off getting rid of that piece of crap and getting something that shoots MOA.

That doesn't sound very reasonable to me... to get rid of a proven performer just because it can't tighten up while it shoots paper.

2 inch accuracy is plenty under normal circumstances. Pick your shot, down the right alley and things will work out.

tuck2 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 29, 2008, 10:47:50 PM »

I purchased my first center fire rifle back in 1952. It was a Winchester Mdl 70 270 Win that would shoot one inch five shot groups at 100 yards. Over the years I have owned other Winchesters , Remington, Ruger, Sako, Howa, Weatherby, Kimber, Ruger, Cooper , Parker-Hale, and Browning brand firearms. I wish they all would have shot small groups like my first 270 Win . I did learn how to adjust the trigger pull, free float barrels, and glass bed actions to get them to shot smaller groups. I took a few rifles to a gunsmith and had the bolt locking lugs lapped and the barrel muzzle recrowned. When getting a new or used rifle you dont know what it will do untill it is shot off a bench rest. A good quality scope also helps. To get the best out of a rifle one also has to learn how to reload ammo. Good luck with the Crap Shoot. I have to add: When I go hunting and miss a shot I know its me and not the rifle, scope or my reloads. Testing a firearm off a bench rest is the first step to hitting game or varmints .

beemanbeme · « **Reply #35 on:** January 30, 2008, 04:01:53 AM »

If putting your shots thru the same hole proves nothing, I'd sure like to know what putting most of them into a 2.5" circle proves? That you're a lousy shot or the rifle is a POS? I'm sure a ton of deer are killed every year with rifles being shot by shooters that do well to hold a 2.5" group. If once a year, I dragged ole "trusty rusty" out of the closet and tried to remember where I put that partial box of ammo I bought three years ago, I'm sure 2.5" groups would get me where I wanted to go.
But I shoot rifles because I like to shoot. I like to reload. The challenge of reloading is to develop a special load for one rifle that performs better than any other. The challenge of shooting at targets is to get the holes as close together as possible. The two disciplines compliment each other.
I shoot a rifle from the bench to find out what it can do; I shoot a rifle from field positions to find out what I can do. Again the two disciplines compliment each other.
This thread has kinda rambled but it's interesting. Like somebody smart said, however, "only accurate rifles are interesting."

PartsMan · « **Reply #36 on:** January 30, 2008, 04:11:20 AM »

A rifle needs to be accurate even if shooting off hand.

Let's say I can shoot a 3" group off hand with my best rifle.
The rifle I am holding shoots 3" groups on it's best day of a bench.
If the rifle and I both pull left the coyote I was aiming at is gut shot instead of heart shot.

If I was holding my .5" 223 then things work out much better.

the jigger · « **Reply #37 on:** January 31, 2008, 05:37:22 AM »

IMHO Savage is not a crap shoot! i have 5 Savage/Stevens rifles:
308 Sierra
25/06 110fp
22/250 12fv
250/3000 re chamber of 25/06 takeoff
257Roberts rechamber of Stevens 200 25/06
all of these rifles have SSS triggers and are otherwise stock.
all shoot MOA or less at 200yds. with my handloads.
on my last p-dog shoot i had 12 or so kills at 400+yds with the 25/06.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jcn59 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 31, 2008, 04:00:00 PM »

Buy a Tikka - 1" at a hundred yards guaranteed. We have 3 & they all do that & better. Last week got a new .270 for $570. NO ONE can match that guarantee for that kind of money.

It's fun shooting sub-inch groups at 100 yards. That's all the reason I need.

But for deer hunting, most anything with a rifled barrel brings home the V.

hillbill · « **Reply #39 on:** February 01, 2008, 03:26:59 PM »

to put it plain and simple, the gun industry has went the way of American car makers, they simply wont do what they say they will.i would rather bet my money on a older better made product than i would the cheap plastic stocked crap they are are producing now.if you want a light rifle get a rem 7, yu want a heavy rifle, get a win 70 or a rem 700. i have a rem 7 that has never missed a game animal but on paper with a hot barrel it shoots like crap. however this rifle will put every FIRST round in the boiler room out to 300 yrds. your plastic stocked new rifle will be worth less than yu gave for it next year but my older rifle seems to appreciate every year.but hey thats me, i like to give less than somethings worth and then have it appreciate. jeez that reminds me, i aint bought a new rifle in 20 yrs. go for quality and yu will never regret it no matter how much it costs.

razorbuc · « **Reply #40 on:** February 02, 2008, 05:02:10 PM »

Speaking of low cost rifles that shoot....I have a Remington r5 milspec .308,that I had "blue printed",before I even took it home.I love it...it shoots tiny tiny groups....that's got me right at 1100$ for the rifle.It's got a pretty good scope,a Burris Signature Select 6x24...I love it..it shoots great.....BUT.....my shooting buddy picked up one of those WallyWorld specials...a Remmy .270,in the gray stock(model 7?)..with bushnell scope,for 320$...and it will shoot just as tight as mine,using the remington coreloct hunting rounds that his gun likes...while I'm shooting handloads(Sierra bthp) along with the hot shot blue printed rifle...go figure...he is a much kinder man than I am,so maybe it's KARMA

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #41 on:** February 02, 2008, 05:05:06 PM »

You just never know.

Dale

sniperVLS · « **Reply #42 on:** February 11, 2008, 12:50:11 AM »

Quote from: razorbuc on February 02, 2008, 05:02:10 PM

I have a Remington r5 milspec .308,

<---------------- JEALOUS

You have one nice rifle in the 5R!! Does the barrel clean up as nice as some say?

I was asking myself if I was doing the right thing when buying the 870 last week, not getting it and withdrawing another 400 would have gotten me the Milspec. The shotgun won out....this time.

Lead Poison · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2008, 08:19:06 PM »

Mr. Joe thank you for the posts you've shared throughout this thread!

They were well stated, fair, and definitely added to the discussion.

tuck2 · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2008, 09:00:09 PM »

If I hunted deer in the woods where a long shot is 100 yards I d use my old 94 Win 30-30 and not own a tuned up bolt action rifle . But I live and hunt pronghorn and mule deer in the wide open country where an accurate Win 264 Mag with a 4.5-14 X scope is handy.

lilabner · « **Reply #45 on:** February 20, 2008, 01:53:53 PM »

It is for sure a crap shoot, but there are ways of improving your odds. The old Savage 110 action is a wonderfully designed piece of hardware. It is just about impossible for the factory to put a Savage together wrong. The newer ones have a decent trigger and that helps. Your odds are better with a Savage because of the design. The Weatherby Vanguard comes with a target shot at the factory. Ask to see that target and you'll get an idea of how the rifle will shoot. If it is a good group, your odds of avoiding a lemon are better than average. Sako/Tikka says they don't ship a rifle unless it will group an inch or better. They don't say how many groups they shoot to get the one inch group or what ammo was used and they don't put a target in the box but there are plenty of happy shooters that own Sakos or Tikkas. CZ has a reputation for accuracy. Read up on them and you'll find their .22s are almost as accurate as Anschutz rifles. I bought a CZ rimfire and it is in fact a tack driver. You don't see much in the way of aftermarket stuff for any of these rifles and maybe that's good. I'd just as soon have a rifle that will shoot well out of the box.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #46 on:** February 21, 2008, 04:11:06 AM »

Of course all the old time rifles shot great.

That is because the craftsmen/machinists never came to work sick or with a hangover or worried about personal problems and were able to devote 100% of their concentration to the task of building the product. You never had apprentice craftsmen/machinists working on the product. Quality control was perfect and there were no cases of rifles going out the door with off-center or mis-aligned chambers, barrels with over or under-size bores, or chatter marks in the bore, no screwed up threads where the barrel joins the action, and all triggers were perfectly tuned and stocks were immaculately crafted of the finest walnut to match the quality of the rest of the rifle.

Contrast that to today where much of the work is monitored and controlled by computers, from the manufacturing of the raw steel to machining parts to within a few ten-thousandths of an inch. Lawyer triggers are a problem, imperfect human beings are still involved in the manufacturing process, and problem rifles still go out the door on occasion. That said, I’ll take my chances with a modern Ruger/Remington/Savage/Howa and others over a rifle manufactured ‘back in the day’.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #47 on:** February 21, 2008, 04:20:26 AM »

Quote from: hillbill on February 01, 2008, 03:26:59 PM

to put it plain and simple, the gun industry has went the way of American car makers, they simply wont do what they say they will.i would rather bet my money on a older better made product than i would the cheap plastic stocked crap they are are producing now.if you want a light rifle get a rem 7, yu want a heavy rifle, get a win 70 or a rem 700. i have a rem 7 that has never missed a game animal but on paper with a hot barrel it shoots like crap. however this rifle will put every FIRST round in the boiler room out to 300 yrds. your plastic stocked new rifle will be worth less than yu gave for it next year but my older rifle seems to appreciate every year.but hey thats me, i like to give less than somethings worth and then have it appreciate. jeez that reminds me, i aint bought a new rifle in 20 yrs. go for quality and yu will never regret it no matter how much it costs.

Some of the “cheap plastic stocked crap they are are producing now” are in fact rifles of excellent quality that shoot extremely well. As with wooden stocks, ‘plastic’ stocks come in different flavors with prices attached. If you buy a synthetic-stocked Stevens for $249 you get a stock that is admittedly low end – and Stevens won’t claim anything different. The majority of the time, though, you also get a pretty good shooter.

And if you haven’t noticed, some manufactures are putting pretty good wood on their production rifles. Not that wood is superior to synthetic, as just the opposite is often the case. Wood just looks better to some folks..

NONYA · « **Reply #48 on:** February 21, 2008, 04:14:38 PM »

I love all the new (POS) bolt rifles i have,I buy one every time I can afford it,nobody is forcing you to buy them,go drop a couple grand on a custom rifle and quit bitchin.

Cement Man · « **Reply #49 on:** February 22, 2008, 03:24:11 AM »

I admire and cherish the quality products of yesteryear and am often amazed by the craftsmanship, beauty, performance, and detail that was achieved by handwork in the past. I wouldn't trade many of my old rifles or pocketwatches for anything, and I enjoy using these things on occasion.
That said, I am often similarly astounded by how much value, consistency, and performance we get from many modern products. I think the selection of rifles, optics, and vehicles we have now - in a variety of models and price points is better than ever, and in many cases far more value for my money. Depends on what you're looking for.
Ya gotta keep things in perspective........

beemanbeme · « **Reply #50 on:** February 22, 2008, 08:12:37 AM »

Well said, Nonya. Too many folks want champagne to drink while paying for beer (or water). I've spoke many times about how they whine about the hand work that isn't there but if say Remington were to start doing this missing work --and charging-- they'd be the first to scream.
If they want a hand crafted rifle, just pull a sack of money out from under that mattress and they'll be somebody willing to take it off their hands. Then they'd be whining because it didn't shoot no better than these cheap old box guns we poor people have to shoot.

ccoker · « **Reply #51 on:** February 24, 2008, 02:02:55 PM »

growing up I remember my dad going through a bunch of rifles, tons of them, always freefloating the barrels, glass bedding, trigger jobs, working up handloads, etc.. the only one he has kept through all of it was a 22-250 he built in 66 with a Sako action, a stainless 220 swift barrel rechambered. That gun is legendary in our family and with the people we hunted with growing up

When I hunted as a kid I used a gun that dad handed me that had been "worked"

When as an adult it was time to buy my first bolt action "deer rifle" I stumbled across an old Sako 243 that needed stock refinishing

I bought a Tikka in 223 (varmint model) a while later since it had the sako barrel, was free floated, stellar trigger, etc..
since then I have recommended them to people and everyone has got a "shooter" right out of the box
I bought a 308 stainless lite this past fall for the upcoming season and worked up some handloads, 1/2" group and killed 4 deer with it

fast forward to last week and I decided to buy a lightly used Sako greywolf in 308 as a gift to myself for selling my business that had became a part time gig...

I took it out and shot it, well, it did the same thing as the Tikka (one ragged hole at 100 yards)
hmm, costs almost double the Tikka, even used
is it really any better?
well, no, not really in that it's a tool and the other one worked perfectly well.
same accuracy and I am sure reliability

I have also gone up in scopes, not really because I "need" them, but because I get caught up in the whole thing about quaility

Leupolds, Burris, Nikons, Bushnells, etc
then stepped up to a Zeiss Conquest, but kept hearing how the Zwaroski has even better glass and took the plunge on a lightly used one

so, even with shopping hard I have almost 1,700 into this gun
in reality, a $500 Tikka and a $300 Nikon will do everything I need and them some

my point I guess is that there are VERY good production rifles out there today that consistently shoot good for not a whole lot of money

I think that with the current manufacturing processes the crapshoot of getting a "shooter" is a lot less than it used to be and several brands do it right out of the box with no work done to it other than shooting some different ammo in them to see what they like...

as much as I love beautiful wood and deep blueing, if it's for hunting, synthetic stocks and stainless make a lot of sense, modern prroduction techniques can make for very precise and consistent products.

I almost think that it's the custom builders that have to work harder to justify the expense..
seems you used to have to pay one way or the other
either a custom gun that was right from the get go or to take a production gun like a Remington and have to work it

either way you are paying for the time to do the details right
some of today's guns like the Tikkas, Savages, CZs, etc.. are done right from the beginning, do they have the "handcrafted one at a time" vibe? no.. but as a tool, they work.

hillbill · « **Reply #52 on:** May 21, 2008, 01:41:08 PM »

oh i was just off on a rant when i made the "cheap plastic stocked crap" remark. i know some of them are fine and make wonderful hunting rifles. some of the cheapest like the savages are very accurate rifles to boot and a heck of a gun for the money,especially when bought used.what i have noticed is that they don't seem to appreciate much in value.or not as much as a older rifle of better quality of manufacture. and as i buy and sell a lot of rifles and shotguns, they just don't seem to turn people on like the better rifles do to induce a buyer like heirloom quality walnut and highly polished blue steel.and im not talking bout high priced customs either.just nice older rems, rugers, brownies and wins, among others.

torpedoman · « **Reply #53 on:** May 21, 2008, 06:04:37 PM »

The high dollar custom rifle builders are making crap and counting on the customer being too embarrassed to admit that they payed that much for a junk gun. You have to realize that many are status symbols never to be shot for serious accuracy. I have a private range and have had coopers and kimbers brought up by friends that cant shoot with a 50 year old mossberg. One has been back to the maker three times and still cant keep groups as well as the mossberg. Me, I want a gun that shoots real tight groups from a rest under controlled conditions, that way it will be all my fault if I miss a critical shot in the field.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #54 on:** May 21, 2008, 06:15:01 PM »

Quote from: torpedoman on May 21, 2008, 06:04:37 PM

The high dollar custom rifle builders are making crap and counting on the customer being too embarrassed to admit that they payed that much for a junk gun. You have to realize that many are status symbols never to be shot for serious accuracy. I have a private range and have had coopers and kimbers brought up by friends that cant shoot with a 50 year old mossberg. One has been back to the maker three times and still cant keep groups as well as the mossberg. Me, I want a gun that shoots real tight groups from a rest under controlled conditions, that way it will be all my fault if I miss a critical shot in the field.

Agreed. Dale

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #55 on:** May 21, 2008, 07:25:49 PM »

How can you ever be confident with a shaky offhand shot when you know a rifle is a POS off the bench?

If a gun won't shoot MOA or better---its gone.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

I've had the best performance with Browning-Tikka and Sako rifles--------Savages are just too nasty to my eye to ever buy one.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Kimber and Weatherby(Mk V) rifles were huge disappointments---Remington--not so good either-----I do have to say fit and finish of recent Remingtons is quite nice---but I'm still gunshy about trying another one.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Only accurate rifles are interesting...................................................................................................

no guns here · « **Reply #56 on:** May 21, 2008, 10:34:46 PM »

I don't know... I always want to shoot that clover-leaf but realistically I don't. I only have one rifle that I don't KNOW that will shoot nice 1.5" groups or smaller. It has shot 2" (iron sights @100m) but nothing smaller. I don't have a scope on it yet though. It's a Steyr .376 Pro Hunter. I'm pretty sure I can get it down in the +/- 1" range as every other Steyr I've shot would do that. But then again, I don't really care. It's a rifle for dangerous type game that will almost always be shot at 100m or less. Even if I decide to go for a red stag this year the guides will NOT let you shoot over 200m's so a 1.5" group is fine. I've shot my Marlin 1895's into 1.5" or so, some smaller a time or two. But again... these aren't intended for long range and 1.5 will get me to 200 just fine. My Tikka T3 .308 Light shoots just around an inch for me with the only ammo I've tried (150 gr Federal's) so I'm pretty sure I could cut that a bit if I had access to some really good fodder for it. I have an old Ruger 77 varmint rifle in 6m Rem that makes nice little groups that you can cover with a quarter most of the time. My 700SS .30-06 has never shot under an inch for me but never over two inches. I does better since I had a trigger job done a few years ago. It's got about 18 deer to it's credit now though. My G2 shoots pretty good with the .45 muzzleloader barrel on it. I've only tried 100 yards with it a time or two but it shot in the 2 inch range or so. But I'm not a big black powder guy. I just use them for more hunting. My .50 Model 700 ML shoots pretty good with sabots at 100. I think it was in the 1.5 range but it's been a while... I DO know that I can use patched balls and 30 grains of black and it will shoot really NICE groups at 50 yards for my kids. 50 grains opens up that group to a pattern... My AR-15 is easily my most consistently accurate rifle. I can put a whole magazine in a 3 inch circle at 100 (rapid fire) or if I calm down and concentrate it'll do sub-moa with reloads all day long if you don't get it too hot. I intend to turn it into a real tack driver (in the 4s or so) when I get back to the US for good.

I guess I have different standards than some. The smaller the better of course but I don't have time or opportunity at this stage of life to play with them for the group size. The fact that I can go home on leave and and pick up a rifle and have it shoot to the same POA that it did two years ago is great for me. There isn't a deer anywhere I hunt that I can't kill with a 1.5" group. I would like to have a couple more rifles that will shoot .5 groups and maybe I will have someday. But right now... I don't sweat it.

I think the over accuracy of all rifles has gone up in the past 20 years or so. Shooters now demand more than they did in 1950, 1960, 1970... scopes are better, ammo is better, production is better. It all adds up. Now, I'd definitely like to see some of the old style craftsmanship, machining and blueing married up with todays actions and barrels. Oh wait, that's a custom rifle. Maybe in the future...

ngh

billy · « **Reply #57 on:** May 22, 2008, 01:02:48 AM »

Well i owned lots of rifles over the years in most all the name brands,my howa 1500 in 270 wcf is about the best shooter i have ever owned also had good luck with remington 7 and 700 ,ruger m77and weatherby mark 5.My problem is i don,t like plastic parts on guns, i,m a wood and steel man.

jcn59 · « **Reply #58 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:40:41 AM »

The standard for shooting has always been hitting the target which is best done with an accurate rifle. Always been that way. Of course we like accurate rifles. It delights me to hear of the purchase of a new rifle by anyone who legally can, even people who aren't afflicted with the one inch accuracy standard. It bolsters our ranks and it strengthens the firearms industry.

I think it's strange that some of the people who moan about the Tikka plastic trigger guard carry guns with whole plastic stocks. While I don't carry half-plastic guns myself, I'm glad some of you do because it helps keep the demand for walnut from going up any faster.

Ugly ol' Savage .35 Whelen

no guns here · « **Reply #59 on:** May 22, 2008, 08:04:06 AM »

Yeah, I love the wood stocks too, BUT, the synthetic is more affordable so I out of the last 5 I bought only the 1895 Cowboy was wood. In two or three years I be able to get me nice custom wood stocked rifle but not now. Actually, I may get one (a drilling I have my eye on at a local German gun shop) on payments later this year. Talk about craftsmanship...

ngh