Author Topic: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant  (Read 8226 times)

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Offline jcn59

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It's always better to buy the best one you can afford than to buy nothing.  There's usually plenty of time left to sort in the fancy & accurate ones, and sort out the others.  I usually only buy "good deals" & move on those that aren't accurate.  I've always thought a drilling or good double would be nice but I can't imagine taking one on a hunt.  I had a Mannlicher-Schoenauer once but the long, long search for one I could afford was more fun than actually owning one, so I sold it.  Same for some others.
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Offline Brithunter

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The high dollar custom rifle builders are making crap and counting on the customer being too embarrassed to admit that they payed that much for a junk gun. You have to realize that many are status symbols never to be shot for serious accuracy. I have a private range and have had coopers and kimbers brought up by friends that cant shoot with a 50 year old mossberg. One has been back to the maker three times and still cant keep groups as well as the mossberg. Me, I want a gun that shoots real tight groups from a rest under controlled conditions, that way it will be all my fault if I miss a critical shot in the field.

    Well I have a few customs all brought used, one is difficult to shoot accurately however that is down to the bead having rusted off the fore sight blade, the blade is only 0.025" thick. Oh not poor quality just 111 years old and suffered poor storage. Another well that's quite a bit younger built around 1908 has express sights no scope. Checked out the sights using some 1960's Kynoch ammo and found that the sights are still in regulation at 100 & 200 yards. The one with the scope well that pretty new being built is 97, it's 30-30 bolt action and shoots handloads in around 1/2 MOA. If someone buys a custom rifle and it does not shoot well that's between them and the maker/builder. However I have a friend who brought a Weatherby MkV in 30-378, well it took several trips back to Weatherby's who over a period of time virtually rebilt it so by the end only about the action was orignal yet it still refised to shoot accuratley. In the end it took a final re-build by a Bench rest Gunsmith who blue printed it to get it to shoot. It's not only customs that have problems.

Offline thumbcocker

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I have a 1975 remington model 700 bdl 270 that will shoot bug holes all day long. However it took quite a bit of load development to get it to do this. This year I bought a remington 7600 308 carbine. So far it has put every factory load I tried into the same group. 180 remington spcl's and federal fusion's shoot the best, with the fusion ammo shooting into tiny little groups. I was really amazed at that.

Offline slim rem 7

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bug hole no.. 3 shot bullseye[nickel size] at a hundred most any time i try..just use sand bags
  not gonna touch or change in any way an rifle,, i can do that with .
 strait off the shelf ..savage 110..i took enough time to learn the rifle and just happened to try fusion 165 in it one day... that day changed everything for me an my savage 30 06..i still get 2 hole 3 shot groups at a 2 hundred  fairly often..
  best 400 ive spent....are tiny groups necessary for hunting deer.. no .. but i wouldn t take double  what i got in it,for it because i can shoot that well with it.... ..in fact ive thought about buying another as a backup in case something happens to this one..
   i think i can get an 308 or 30 06 with scope for 364.00 ..heck of a value in my opinion..good shootin yall..
 

Offline tuck2

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Purchasing a firearm has a been a crap shoot for some time.  I got my first rifle in 1949. Over the years I have had various rifles.  A  big game rifle that will shoot two inch groups will work for most hunting.  But I like accurate rifles so I learned how to give them a tune up , that is glass bed actions, free float barrels and adjust triggers.  I have had a gun       
smith lapp the bolt locking lugs and re crown barrels.  Most rifles accuracy can be improved by giving them a tune up and developing reloads for the rifle.  I also have been using the firearm accurizing torque wrench to set all the screws on the rifles, mounts and scopes. Some times when I gave gotten a used rifle the accuracy improved by cleaning the barrel. Good luck

Offline Mr. Joe

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2008, 09:04:10 AM »
On a personal note, the biggest reason i don't personally care for low cost rifles has nothing to do with performance.  I certainly agree that you have the same odds pulling a MOA savage from a box as you do a $1500 dollar custom shop Remington or kimber.

The reason i like expensive guns or at the least expensive looking guns is that to me the rifle represents more than a tool.  Its a piece of art...functional art at that...just like a fine car.  I like to look at the gun, tinker with the gun, and appreciate the design, craftsmenship, and quality.  Hunting and shooting for me is never economical.  I have to travel to hunt and spend money to reload and shoot.  I would be far ahead just buying meat from the grocer...but hunting is more than that to me...much more. 

Now I'm not a rich man.  In fact i struggle every week between paychecks, but its worth it to me to invest in a thing of beauty that adds much to the enjoyment of my life.  Now admitting not every one is the same.  For allot of good people, a rifle is a tool...like a hammer or screwdriver.  They feel that if it does the job and does it well, its needs to accomplish nothing else.  There is certainly nothing wrong with this line of thought...i just don't share it.  I just love fine guns. 

Fine guns aren't always expensive though.  Deals are out there...just depends on what your after!

BTW:  Thanks for all the great responses to the thread over the last several threads.  The responses have made this one of my most pleasureable reads to date!
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2008, 06:57:40 PM »
...  I just love fine guns. 

Fine guns aren't always expensive though.  Deals are out there...just depends on what your after!
...

I’m not a collector but a shooter.  While I appreciate expensive (I’m talking many thousands of dollars here, sometimes many tens of thousands) firearms as the works of art they are or their history, what I buy is shooters.

The most expensive rifle in the safe is a Ruger M77 MKII VT in .22-250.  It cost me $475 out of pocket and a $75 gift coupon that was a freebie.  The last time I checked it out it put 4 shots into a half inch at 200 yards.  Looks nice, too – stainless and laminate.

My next most expensive rifles are my NIB Remington M700  “Special Purpose Wood” at $425 followed by a $375 NIB Ruger “canoe paddle” .300 Win Mag.   The Remington M700 .308 Win and Ruger M77 .30-06 cost me $350 each,  used but like new.  My Ruger M77 .257 Roberts ran $400 but had a Leupold M8 4x riding in the mounts.  Since I had paid $100 for an identical scope a couple months before, I figure the real cost of that rifle was $300.  Not sure what my Ruger M77 7mm Rem Mag cost me as I bought it new in 1982.  It has turned in a number of sub .5” groups in the last couple years and I’ll not be getting rid of it.  The Savage 111GNS .30-06 I bought as a wedding present for a future son-in-law (thought they would be married by now) ran $299.  It shoots MOA and better.

As you can see, I’m a fan of used rifles.  So far I have yet to be disappointed.  They shoot as well as the ones I’ve bought new, they just cost less.
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Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2008, 02:00:19 PM »
I like your style, Coyote Hunter.  I have had many guns, but very few new ones.  As in buying cars, I would rather let someone else eat the initial depreciation.  I have friends who buy new most of the time,  and I am just as happy as they are with a lot less cash changing hands.  It's folks like them who keep the manufacturers going.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2008, 03:04:31 PM »
I like your style, Coyote Hunter.  I have had many guns, but very few new ones.  As in buying cars, I would rather let someone else eat the initial depreciation.  I have friends who buy new most of the time,  and I am just as happy as they are with a lot less cash changing hands.  It's folks like them who keep the manufacturers going.

Amen to that.  I have a grand total of 1 new gun out of 9 that I own.

Offline DCRthe3rd

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2008, 03:40:06 PM »
I think , given all the variables that will help/hinder how a gun shoots along with the same being said for the ammo , given the price we pay , considerations for mass production and the personalities of different factory workers , etc  , for the most part the gun makers do a fair job in what they turn out.
Some may be inherently better in one way or another by design or process.  There are however makers in which your personal requirements may be catered to more , but then , well , you can expect to pay more for that.
And some people are willing to pay for the name , be it guns or sneakers and their are makers willing to take your $$ for their name.

Offline Mr. Joe

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2008, 05:42:44 PM »
...  I just love fine guns. 

Fine guns aren't always expensive though.  Deals are out there...just depends on what your after!
...

I’m not a collector but a shooter.  While I appreciate expensive (I’m talking many thousands of dollars here, sometimes many tens of thousands) firearms as the works of art they are or their history, what I buy is shooters.

The most expensive rifle in the safe is a Ruger M77 MKII VT in .22-250.  It cost me $475 out of pocket and a $75 gift coupon that was a freebie.  The last time I checked it out it put 4 shots into a half inch at 200 yards.  Looks nice, too – stainless and laminate.

My next most expensive rifles are my NIB Remington M700  “Special Purpose Wood” at $425 followed by a $375 NIB Ruger “canoe paddle” .300 Win Mag.   The Remington M700 .308 Win and Ruger M77 .30-06 cost me $350 each,  used but like new.  My Ruger M77 .257 Roberts ran $400 but had a Leupold M8 4x riding in the mounts.  Since I had paid $100 for an identical scope a couple months before, I figure the real cost of that rifle was $300.  Not sure what my Ruger M77 7mm Rem Mag cost me as I bought it new in 1982.  It has turned in a number of sub .5” groups in the last couple years and I’ll not be getting rid of it.  The Savage 111GNS .30-06 I bought as a wedding present for a future son-in-law (thought they would be married by now) ran $299.  It shoots MOA and better.

As you can see, I’m a fan of used rifles.  So far I have yet to be disappointed.  They shoot as well as the ones I’ve bought new, they just cost less.


I like your taste!  Every gun you mentioned is one that i would consider high quality and certainly not cheap!  You just went about acquiring them in a very intelligent mannor!  I dont own any guns that i paid thousends for, just a couple of remmys, a few rugers...guns like that.  But they are all top quality and what i would consider fairly expensive.
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Offline mikey_b

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2008, 05:25:12 AM »
I find nowadays it is almost impossible to find the "perfect" rifle. It doesn't exist. You can't go to a store and buy it. It was killed off long ago by lawyers and accountants and CEO's more concerned with liability and the bottom line than with building perfect rifles. "Quality" and "quality control" are two things that seem to be lost on a majority of makers out there.

Thankfully, on one hand, with each generation of CNC machine presses, the technology improves slowly and steadily in terms of precision and speed. Why this benefits the shooter is simple, few rifles are really, truly "hand finished" these days, so the more precise they are rolling off the assembly line, the better it is for the consumer, ultimately.

However, at the same time, these actions are being assembled with parts designed to cut costs in any way possible. Cheap stocks that cost mere dollars to pour into a mould. Triggers needing trigger jobs right out-of-the-box due to excessive creep/pull weight/overtravel. Plastics throughout. All in the name of saving money.

I own both a Weatherby Vanguard in .300 Winchester Magnum and a Weatherby Mark V Fibermark in .300 Weatherby Magnum. Okay, so I don't really NEED two .300's, but I have them. Shooting them side-by-side is a very... special... task. The Vanguard easily matches and sometimes bests the Fibermark from the bench, which costs 3 times more! But at the same time, the Vanguard sock is nowhere near the quality - it just feels cheap and unsubstantial. The trigger is rougher. The metalwork is rougher, the bolt isn't as smooth nor does it lock up as nicely, the feed rails aren't as nicely finished, the recoil pad doesn't match the contours of the buttstock as well, you can "feel" the cost cutting measure in practice every time you handle the rifle, but at the same time, it's really hard justifying the extra expenditure for a higher level of fit and finish.

Here's another example - compare a brand new Tikka T3 to a Sako 85. Big difference. The Tikka reeks of cost-cutting measures just holding it. The Sako, though not nearly at the level of refinement of previous models, is manufactured to a much higher standard. I mean, even the trigger guard on the Tikka is plastic. But lay it over a rest and watch it punch paper - sweet Jesus can they rock a target something fierce. But how long will those plastic bits and pieces hold up to years of hard shooting and hunting? It's like Tikka set out to make the most accurate rifle they could for as little as possible, cutting costs wherever possible. And people are using them satisfactorily in the field, they aren't breaking into pieces when the plastic freezes, they're maintaining their accuracy, and they are far, far less expensive than the Sako.

On the reverse side, I've seen now 5 Kimbers that can't shoot worth poop at the range and heard reports of many others on the Internet. These are marketed as being some of the finest off-the-shelf guns on the market. They are not cheap. But with the way they shoot, you'd think they were priced right in line with the cheapest Stevens on the shelf, except the Stevens is probably more accurate. The bedding job on the Kimbers in question is horrible. I had to lend one hunter a rifle of mine so he could go on a sheep hunt because his Kimber wouldn't shoot. Imagine dropping the money on an expensive rifle and a very expensive scope only to find you could fit a butter knife on one side of the barrel and a playing card would bind on the other! Meanwhile my old M700 Mountain Rifle did just fine for him at around half the cost with a really cheap scope. He's still fighting to get his gun fixed.

Pretty much across all price ranges, I've seen my fair share of turds and gems - an M70 Featherweight I sold in 6.5mm was an easy .5 MOA rifle out to 300 yards right from the factory. Nothing else done to it, even had the rough factory trigger and (gasp!) walnut stock. Likewise I've seen a few Rugers that have had to go back to the factory for repairs due to stringing shots or cracking stocks. My Browning is super smooth and slick but can't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside unless shooting 140gr or lighter bullets, which stinks for a 7mm Remington Magnum! It's been bedded and checked by two smiths and adjusted every which way but shoots 3" groups at 100 yards with 150's, and it gets much worse as the bullets get heavier - but is a long range tack driver with 140's. I can't bring myself to sell it to someone else because of that. I've seen a Sauer 202 bring an owner to tears of frustration and a cheap sporter built on an old Enfield P17 action come in 3rd place in a 300 yard shooting match. You just never know what you're going to get.

And speaking of the Stevens 200, wow, what a deal. It's a cheap rifle and makes no excuses about it, but succeeds brilliantly and every one I've seen at the local range has been a minute-of-whitetail rifle. As expected, stocks and triggers are junk, but like I said, they don't pretend to be more than they are - cheap, decently built guns. At the same time, I can't get over how much I dislike the Savage Accutrigger - what a great idea! Safety AND functionality - now that's progress! Unfortunately it's about the ugliest thing I've ever seen, as are Savage rifles in general. The barrel nut is hideous, the stocks are junk, and the metalwork is somewhat lacking in spit-and-polish. But they seem to really have it where it counts price-wise and accuracy-wise, those guns deliver far above their price point would suggest, far unlike a Mossberg - who in God's name let these guys build the 4x4? It's the biggest heap of junk I've ever seen.

I've seen Remingtons go both ways as well. A few cheap SPS rifles thinking they're Custom Shop target rifles while others are too busy throwing their shots all over the paper to remember that they're Model 700's, not shotguns. Again, hit-and-miss within the same range of rifles. With the heavy rebates being offered by Big Green they are very affordable, and are a decent gun overall but still, I can't help but think about the pile of junk that was the 710 and is the 770. First time I saw one fired the factory mounted scope actually came flying off the rifle. I mean, the shooter is definitely partly to blame for not double checking them after shipping and sitting in a warehouse for however long, but I'd expect something a little better than that from Remington, which is a massive company and any bad press spreads like wildfire.

It is a real crap shoot as the subject would suggest. It's almost like I don't know what to buy anymore when I walk into a gun store. Do I save for a Weatherby or Sako? Do I drop the money now on a Remington/Savage/Tikka? Do I bother fighting with the manufacturer if I get a dud? Or do I just tune it myself or with the help of a  gunsmith? I've actually started to sell off a bunch of my rifles as I just don't need that many of them. In fact I could easily be a .30-06 and 12ga. kind of guy and be perfectly happy shooting geese, deer, moose, and black bear, but ultimately, which .30-06 would I be happy with? Any? Many? I just don't know anymore.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2008, 06:28:21 AM »
Boys I can agree and disagree with almost everything that has been posted here for one reason or another.
That being said within the last year I have seen some high dollar SAKOs, TIKAs and a REMINGTON target grade or varmint grade I don't remember which it was called that would not shoot under 3" to 4" with factory or reloads. These may have been exceptions, I can't say as I didn't shoot own them.
The shooter that did is known around here for his shooting and reloading ability and has proving such many times, so I don't question that.
I have and have had guns of all makes that will not shoot, shoot ok, shoot great and a few that would scare you to shoot that good.
Wish I had more of the last!
Some were custom builds and most were factory ones.
Some new and most used.
From $125.00 that shoot great to $1500.00 that were lousy.
The crap shoot part is IMHO very true.
example:
My pre war model 70 WINCHESTER in 22 Hornet has had the barrel cut to 20" by who knows what nut with a hacksaw and isn't even square.
It was filed mostly smooth and has no crown yet it will shoot 5 shoots under a dime with factory Winchester ammo at 100yds and has won a few bets for me in the past.
Why, who knows.
It shouldn't shoot at all from what we all have read and know about guns.
Just proves there are exceptions to the rule, be they few and far between but there none the less.

The one thing I don't recall reading in anyones posts was the main reason that the old guns shoot so well was that they were used every day on everything from food to target to self defence.
They were a way of life!
Use it well or die.
PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
Were the guns really better back then?
Perhaps, but I think that the folks maybe just new there equipment better.
Why do some HANDYS shoot so good ( my 204 ) right out of the box and others ( my Buddy's BC that won't keep factory 300gr HPs under 9" at 100 ) shoot so bad?
My BC will do 1.5" to 2" with no problem.
Again, WHO KNOWS!!!


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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2008, 05:11:58 AM »
I can only say that in 45 years of shooting, I've never seen or shot a Remington that wasn't accurate with factory ammo.  Most guns are accurate if the shooter is doing everything right.  Handloads may or may not be worth a hoot.  Folks really need to shoot several brands of factory ammo before they give up on a rifle.  Scopes & scope mounts are also often to blame for issues attributed to the rifle.

In summation.........

Frequently the rifle is fine, it just needs good ammo & good glass that's properly mounted.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline deltecs

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2008, 07:05:24 AM »
Well, I've seen a few Remingtons that didn't shoot all that well with factory ammo, 2-3" at 100 with all loads.  Once tuned in with handloads these same rifles had substantially smaller groups, 1-2.5" at 100.  This is still not tack driving rifles, but I've never seen a rifle that with the right handload would not shoot a bit better.  That is not to say some rifles will shoot tack driving groups with factory ammo, just that handloads will probably shoot a bit better.  It does take a lot of time, effort and expense to find the sweet spot for the rifle but it will shoot a bit better. 
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2008, 07:21:21 AM »
Good handloads may shoot better.  Most handloads aren't good at all, or even correct for the rifle they are being used in.  Many are dangerous.

Anytime someone says "my rifle doesn't shoot very good" the first thing I ask is, are you shooting factory ammo?  If they aren't I dismiss the likelyhood that it's actually the rifle.  Of course most people simply can't shoot MOA even from a bench with a good rifle and ammo.  That's another issue altogether.

Poor accuracy (like a plane crash) is pilot error most of the time.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline deltecs

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2008, 07:48:19 AM »
I shouldn't even bother to post this reply.  Handloads ARE every bit as good as factory when done correctly.  The dangerous handloads are done by incompetents and applies to those that are not good.  I've seen factory loads that were bad shooters in rifles, so factory loads are all bad for rifles.  Not so, but you get my point.  I dismiss those that actually state as fact something they know little about or are so opinionated as to dismiss real facts.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2008, 08:01:21 AM »
I'm not putting down handloads.  I use them.

The thing is, they have to be tailored for each rifle.  Modern factory ammo rocks compared to the junk they sold when I was young.  It's very tough to beat with handloads.  The same goes for scopes.  Even the cheapest scopes are better than what we had when I was young.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2008, 11:58:04 AM »
I can only say that in 45 years of shooting, I've never seen or shot a Remington that wasn't accurate with factory ammo.  Most guns are accurate if the shooter is doing everything right.  Handloads may or may not be worth a hoot.  Folks really need to shoot several brands of factory ammo before they give up on a rifle.  Scopes & scope mounts are also often to blame for issues attributed to the rifle.

In summation.........

Frequently the rifle is fine, it just needs good ammo & good glass that's properly mounted.

I haven't shot that many Remingtons but did shoot a new SPS .308 or .30-06 (it belonged to a friend and I forget which cartrige) for initial zero and groups after mounting a Burris Fullfiled II 3x9.  That rifle didn't care for any of the three or four factory loads I was shooting.  We're talking 1-1/2 " to 2" groups depending on the particular ammo.

By contrast, my Remington BDL .308 and SPW .30-06 do very well with my handloads, even though they (the .30-06 loads)were initally developed for my Ruger.  (I did the workup again with the Remmy and stopped when I reached the Ruger loads - this way I can do one load and shoot them in either rifle.  Not so with my Savage, though, which has a shorter chamber.)
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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2008, 12:13:51 PM »
In the late 1970s I bought one of my first good (expensive)rifles. It was a Ruger M77 in .30-06 with a 4X Leupold on it.  I did a bunch of odd/crap jobs in my spare time to scrape up the money to buy it.  Out of the box with Winchester Western 150 grain factory ammo it shot 6" groups at 100 yards.  I was pretty sick about it.  I got to talking to an old guy at the local Sporting Goods store.  He suggested I remove the forward pressure point in the stock and replace it with a piece of business card.  He also suggested a load using IMR4831 under a 150 grain Sierra BTSP in the Winchester cases and a CCI Large Rifle primer.  Would you believe one hole groups?  If you went up or down 1/2 grain the groups would get a lot bigger.  It was a picky but handsome rifle.  The first time I deer hunted with it my friend knocked it over on a tool box and put a big gouge in the checkering.

I often wonder where that old Ruger is now.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Brithunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2008, 10:31:16 PM »
Hmmm I had to read the last posting twice to make sure it said what I thought it did  ??? as it makes absolutley no sense at all. I suppose given the source I should not be surprised  ::) Anyway I know I shouldn't ask but cannot fathom this out so I have to ask  :-[:-

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I got to talking to an old guy at the local Sporting Goods store.  He suggested I remove the forward pressure point in the stock and replace it with a piece of business card.

Can someone please explain how removing the stock pressure point and then replacing it with a piece of card is supposed to help? Sorry does not compute  :o and as for this:-

Quote
Good handloads may shoot better.  Most handloads aren't good at all, or even correct for the rifle they are being used in.  Many are dangerous.

Anytime someone says "my rifle doesn't shoot very good" the first thing I ask is, are you shooting factory ammo?  If they aren't I dismiss the likelyhood that it's actually the rifle.  Of course most people simply can't shoot MOA even from a bench with a good rifle and ammo.  That's another issue altogether.

Poor accuracy (like a plane crash) is pilot error most of the time.

 ::) hmmm well what can one say ? what is however inferred is that Factory ammunition is sooooooooooooooooo good it will shoot well and accurately through every rifle  ::) anyone who has shot a lot will know this to be false and that's nothing new either. If you read Townsend Wheelan's book:-

"The Hunting Rifle"

    you will find that he bemoans to poor standard fo some production cartridges which he claims is due to the factories putting effort onto the "popular and fashionable" cartridge of that time with resulting drop in quality of the others cartridges being produced that were not in the fore-front of the fashion stakes at that time. Add to that differences in lots or batches and it becomes a lottery with factory ammunition. I brought some Winchester 150 grain HP 30-30 ammo to try in my newly acquired rifle and was dissmayed to find it would not group in under 3" as the 30-30 is not that popular here I was waiting upon dies that had been ordered so could not handload for it just yet  :'( so I tried different places and found some Winchester 150 grain Silver Tips to try and found they shot almost as badly. Winchester was the only brand I found and 150 grain the only weight  ::).

   Once I got the dies using the once fired Winchester brass I made up a handload taken right out of a Petersens Rifle shooter article and tried them out. The results were groups of 5/8"-3/4" with 130 grain Hornady spitzers. Several years later I acquired another box of Winchester 150 grain HP's and found that these shot into 1 1/2" so there must have been a quality issue with the batches I tried earlier. Factory ammo is reliable in that it will chamber and go bang however accuracy is another matter altogether  ;)

Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2008, 12:10:02 AM »
Like the Dead Sea scrolls, Col. Townsend Whelan was correct eons ago when he wrote that.  At that time you couldn't even find decent bullets period.  That's why he invented the .35 Whelan.  Small caliber bullets would just go to pieces on game like Elk.  Factory ammo was crap.


Give up on those old clunkers(there's a good reason those companies went out of business.)   Try some modern factory ammo.  Welcome to the 21st century.  Read a new book!

We ain't usin' Cordite anymore.  They even have non-corrosive primers here in the New World.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2008, 03:32:01 AM »

Can someone please explain how removing the stock pressure point and then replacing it with a piece of card is supposed to help? Sorry does not compute  :o and as for this:-
Brithunter –

I’m pretty much with you on this issue, although the softer card would have a somewhat different effect than a hardwood pressure point.  The problem with cards is they are a temporary measure.  Over time they will compress, even if dry, changing the POI.  The fun really begins if they get wet or even damp.

Quote
::) hmmm well what can one say ? what is however inferred is that Factory ammunition is sooooooooooooooooo good it will shoot well and accurately through every rifle  ::) anyone who has shot a lot will know this to be false and that's nothing new either. …

Again we’re pretty much on the same page.  There is some pretty good factory ammo out there but there is also a lot of so-so ammo. When I got my first .30-06 a couple years back I was away from home and my reloading equipment for several months and so bought half a dozen different types of ammo, from Federal, Remington, Winchester and Hornady.  None of it shot nearly as well as my first work-up loads.  When I bought my Remington .308 Win I had similar issues with factory ammo, although I didn’t try as many different types.  My first batch of work-up loads shot FAR better (6 of 9 into one elongated hole with the other 3 just outside).

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a lot of crap handloads out there, but they are of no concern to me unless they are dangerous and being fired in my immediate vicinity.  In my case my handloads almost always shoot better than factory stuff and even if they didn’t I would use them anyway, partly because they are MY loads and partly because of cost – I can shoot really premium ammo for less tan half the cost of factory stuff (and in many cases I can’t even get what I want from a factory) and I can also shoot plinker ammo for far less than factory ammo.

Regardless, factory ammo is not a panacea.  Sometimes it is better, often it is not.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2008, 03:43:11 AM »
I agree the only logical reasons to handload these days, is because it's fun and it saves money.  Being able to tailor loads for specific reasons is also a plus.  Performance is usually on par with modern factory ammo.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2008, 08:44:30 AM »
I agree the only logical reasons to handload these days, is because it's fun and it saves money.  Being able to tailor loads for specific reasons is also a puls.  Performance is usually on par with modern factory ammo.

No, saving money and having fun are NOT "the only logical reasons to handload these days".  There are many additional reasons.  Here are a few:

1. Accuracy.  Most of my handloads deliver better accuracy than any factory ammo for a given rifle.

2. Velocity/trajectory.  Many of my handloads exceed factory ammo in the area of velocity.  With the .257 Roberts, for one example, the difference is considerable.  Not necessarily talking +P loads, although my Roberts loads qualify.

3. Bullet selection.  I have a lifetime supply of 7mm 140g North Fork bullets, as well as 350g for my .45-70.  I can't buy loads with those bullets and they are no longer manufactured.  In other cartridges I load various bullets that, while available as components, are not loaded by ammo manufacturers in the weights and cartridges I want.

4. Reduced loads.  Mostly for my .45-70, but that is reason enough.  I'm talking 350g hardcast bullets at 1100fps.   My daughters love these loads and frankly, so do I.  Figure about 7 foot-pounds recoil and excellent accuracy.

Coyote Hunter
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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2008, 08:53:05 AM »
All those except the one about accuracy are valid points.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Brithunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2008, 08:59:04 AM »
Like the Dead Sea scrolls, Col. Townsend Whelan was correct eons ago when he wrote that.  At that time you couldn't even find decent bullets period.  That's why he invented the .35 Whelan.  Small caliber bullets would just go to pieces on game like Elk.  Factory ammo was crap.


Give up on those old clunkers(there's a good reason those companies went out of business.)   Try some modern factory ammo.  Welcome to the 21st century.  Read a new book!

We ain't usin' Cordite anymore.  They even have non-corrosive primers here in the New World.

Oh dear I see GB's deletion of a post of mine has bouyed the Remington ad team  ::) However as usual your so far out on left field that I am not even sure your on the same planet as the rest of us  :-\

I noticed you completely avoided the question about the card shim!!!!!!!!!

Now the 35 Wheelan was developed to deal with larger game as Wheelan knew that the 30-06 was not up to it when the chips came down and the Winchester 405 was not suitable for bolt action repeaters and the lever action was not the best choice for his beloved wilderness hunts add to that the 375 Holland cartridge required a magnum action which was not available from US makers at that time. You might be correct about American ammunition of the time, I say might as I have not knowledge of American ammunition of that time, however at least Kynoch of Witten made very good ammunition which proved itself in the game fields of the Empire. Africa, India, Iraq and the jungles of Malaya and accounted for countless head of game. I do have some original Kynoch ammunition some of which was used to check regulation of sights on classic sporting rifle and once it was established that the sights had not been messed with in the last 100 years handloads were developed to duplicate the original load and have even used some of it on deer hunting trips.

As for modern ammunition? just because it's 30-30 ammunition does that makes it old stuff? now I don't know what year it was made but for your information the batch code in the box is 58HF72 and it would appear that looking at the box it is of modern manufacture. The Winchester site does not offer information on seperate batches.

Back to card shims  ;) I have used card shims to establish the correct amount of tension at the fore tip before using this tension to do proper bedding and as far as I am aware it's the only real use for card shims in bedding.

Offline Swampman

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2008, 10:00:02 AM »
I noticed you completely avoided the question about the card shim!!!!!!!!!

The stock was warped.  The card shim seemed to apply a more even forend tip pressure.  I wouldn't even think about trying to bed a Ruger.  Bedding is a bandaid used to fix a poorly stocked rifle IMO.

Now the 35 Wheelan was developed to deal with larger game as Wheelan knew that the 30-06 was not up to it when the chips came down

Because there were no good small caliber bullets available at that time.  Keith bemoans this constantly in his books and it's the reason he was a big bore fan.

You might be correct about American ammunition of the time, I say might as I have not knowledge of American ammunition of that time, however at least Kynoch of Witten made very good ammunition which proved itself in the game fields of the Empire. Africa, India, Iraq and the jungles of Malaya and accounted for countless head of game.

I think their full patch bullets were very good.

I do have some original Kynoch ammunition some of which was used to check regulation of sights on classic sporting rifle and once it was established that the sights had not been messed with in the last 100 years handloads were developed to duplicate the original load and have even used some of it on deer hunting trips.

I have some too.  It seems ok.

As for modern ammunition? just because it's 30-30 ammunition does that makes it old stuff? now I don't know what year it was made but for your information the batch code in the box is 58HF72 and it would appear that looking at the box it is of modern manufacture. The Winchester site does not offer information on seperate batches.

I would consider anything older than 10 years to be old stuff.

Back to card shims   I have used card shims to establish the correct amount of tension at the fore tip before using this tension to do proper bedding and as far as I am aware it's the only real use for card shims in bedding.  

It worked on my Ruger for as long as I kept it.  The way Rugers actions are mounted in the stock keeps me from considering them as rifles I'd tinker with at home.  If I'd had the money, I'd have tried to find a gunsmith that could have fixed it properly.  I did try it free floated, and it shot even worse.  I was very young at the time and didn't know a lot about rifles except what I'd read.
 
 
 
 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Brithunter

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2008, 10:13:08 AM »
Hmmm do you honestly think that a gunshop would keep commercial ammuntion in stock for 10 years???

The ammo was modern and I shot it within a short time of acquiring it. As for good small bore bullets again your off the mark as there was various makes including I believe the belted bullet.

I cannot speak of Ruger bolt action rifles and their bedding only ever having a Ruger No1 myself but the card shim cannot apply more even pressure unless it was of uneven thickness so your theory is again full of holes.

My Kynoch ammunition came from an old gunshop which had changed hands complete with stock in the 1970's the building is a 16th century one and so full of little cubby holes and had two stair cases. One was removed to make more showroom space and when tit wa taken out a space under was discovered in which was a large safe, unlocked luckily that was stacked with Kynoch ammunition including stuff like .577 and 577/450 sporting ammunition.

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Re: The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2008, 10:30:25 AM »
Hmmm do you honestly think that a gunshop would keep commercial ammuntion in stock for 10 years???

Our local shops have ammo that's probably 40 years old.

As for good small bore bullets again your off the mark as there was various makes including I believe the belted bullet.

The Nosler Partion was the first good small caliber bullet.

I cannot speak of Ruger bolt action rifles and their bedding only ever having a Ruger No1 myself but the card shim cannot apply more even pressure unless it was of uneven thickness so your theory is again full of holes.

Theory be dammed.  It worked

My Kynoch ammunition came from a friend.  Like I said it looks pretty normal for the period.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~