The Crap Shoot That Has Become the Modern Bolt Action Rifle. official rant

[Bart Solo]

On the shim question, many manufacturers have discovered that free floating a light sporter barrel does not deliver the best accuracy.  What happens is the sporter barrel will vibrate at different frequencies for different temperatures. In a sport barrel a shim a the end of the stock will often damp the vibration. The vibrations are so small they can't be seen by the human eye, but they are real and a change in vibration can change the point of impact over a distance.  I saw a demonstration on guns and ammo TV last evening indicating that because they are less affected by natural barrel vibration a short barreled gun can be absolutely more accurate than a long barreled rifle.  Of course a long barreled rifle is generally more accurate because  of the longer sight picture. 

The situation changes when the barrel is heavier.  There the vibrations are not nearly as great as in a narrow sporter barrel. Nearly all target rifles have bull barrels that are free floated.  Many manufacturers "pressure" float their sporter barrels with little elevations in the wood right at the end of the stock. The reason a playing card might work better is than the normal manufacturer installed rise is the playing card shim might dampen the barrel vibration better than the manufacturer installed pressure point. Of course improving on a well engineered rifle is always a crap shoot.  I learned this stuff when I read that some guy actually free floated his barrel and the accuracy fell apart. In that case the guy had to do a lot more than free float the barrel. He had to glass bed the action and install a pressure point shim in the form of a sliver of business card. 

It is amazing what you can learn when you read the intertubes.     

[deltecs]

I've AccuraGlassed several wood stocks on the barrel channel only without bedding the action and have improved accuracy.  Free floating barrels don't always produce the best accuracy, as stated by previous posters.  This is not due to poor stocking but more to do with a change in vibration and frequency of the barrel itself.  Also, moisture and weather plays a big difference in point of impact with some stocks and barrels that effect the metal and thus vibrations. 

[Brithunter]

Hmmm do you honestly think that a gunshop would keep commercial ammuntion in stock for 10 years???

Our local shops have ammo that's probably 40 years old.

As for good small bore bullets again your off the mark as there was various makes including I believe the belted bullet.

The Nosler Partion was the first good small caliber bullet.

I cannot speak of Ruger bolt action rifles and their bedding only ever having a Ruger No1 myself but the card shim cannot apply more even pressure unless it was of uneven thickness so your theory is again full of holes.

Theory be dammed.  It worked

My Kynoch ammunition came from a friend.  Like I said it looks pretty normal for the period.

Actually The RWS H-Mantle bullet predates the Nosler partition and the partition is really a copy of the German idea of course as Nosler introduced it during the war he got away with stealing the design  then of course Ross had the Copper Tube bullet which was an excellent bullet when used on the correct game a similar situation to the modern Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet, excellent when used on the correct game but not so good when used on unsuitable game.

As for old ammo in shops I suppose a few do have it, I remembered one where I brought some 7.92mm Kynoch ammo but they sell it to collectors. I suppose we are lucky on this score especially on huntign ammo as a lot of Deer Stalkers use factory ammo and some land owners like the government depatment "The Forresty Commision"  insist on factory ammunition and will not allow the use of Handloads on their land.

As for the card shim well lot's of bodges work for a while 

Of course improving on a well engineered rifle is always a crap shoot.  I learned this stuff when I read that some guy actually free floated his barrel and the accuracy fell apart. In that case the guy had to do a lot more than free float the barrel. He had to glass bed the action and install a pressure point shim in the form of a sliver of business card

Ahhh I have been saying for a long time that Free Floating is nothing but a cheap cost saving production method  as for free floating ruining accuracy yep I have first hand experieince of this. I brought a NIB P-H 1200 Super several years after P-H was closed down. This rifle must have been made during the last days of P-H's production and the inletting and bedding was poorly done with the result that the grouping was poor  the best we could get was arounf 4" at 100 yards, so I used some car body filler to bed the action but added too much filelr and free floated the barrel witht eh result that accuracy deteriated to around 8" at 100 yards. I added card shims under the fore end until the grouping closed up to around MOA then ahd the beddign done professionally by a good gunsmith and now usign Privi Partisen 196 grain ammo the rifle shots around MOA and should hopefully tighten up with selected handloads.

[Coyote Hunter]

No, saving money and having fun are NOT "the only logical reasons to handload these days".  There are many additional reasons.  Here are a few:

1. Accuracy.  Most of my handloads deliver better accuracy than any factory ammo for a given rifle.
...

All those except the one about accuracy are valid points.

Ahh, so now - having never even seen them, let alone shot them - you are an authority on how MY rifles shoot with different ammunition?

Excuse me while I try to stop laughing!

[Swampman]

No one but you, has mentioned your rifles.  We are talking about rifles in general.  Many people still think handloads are better than factory ammo.

That use to be the case.

In fact, handloads may or may not be as good.  It just depends on who loaded them.

[Coyote Hunter]

No one but you, has mentioned your rifles.  We are talking about rifles in general. 

For those that are confused, let me requote what I said:

"1. Accuracy.  Most of my handloads deliver better accuracy than any factory ammo for a given rifle.
..."

Note the phrase "my handloads".  I shoot them in MY rifles.

Many people still think handloads are better than factory ammo.

That use to be the case.

In fact, handloads may or may not be as good.  It just depends on who loaded them.

It has ALWAYS been the case that some handloads were better than factory ammo and others were not.  Still is.

[Brithunter]

No one but you, has mentioned your rifles.  We are talking about rifles in general.  Many people still think handloads are better than factory ammo.

That use to be the case.

In fact, handloads may or may not be as good.  It just depends on who loaded them.

This not only applies to Handloads, some factory ammunition can be pretty poor too 

[Swampman]

No one but you, has mentioned your rifles.  We are talking about rifles in general. 

For those that are confused, let me requote what I said:

"1. Accuracy.  Most of my handloads deliver better accuracy than any factory ammo for a given rifle.
..."

Note the phrase "my handloads".  I shoot them in MY rifles.

Many people still think handloads are better than factory ammo.

That use to be the case.

In fact, handloads may or may not be as good.  It just depends on who loaded them.

It has ALWAYS been the case that some handloads were better than factory ammo and others were not.  Still is.

That's what I said.  But as a control measure a person should at least try some factory ammo in a gun that's shooting poorly.

[Inrut24/7]

My Weatherby Vanguard 270wsm shoots any load i have tried including factory loads much better than the factory test target. talk about a crap shoot!!!

[Coyote Hunter]

That's what I said.  But as a control measure a person should at least try some factory ammo in a gun that's shooting poorly.

No reason to try factory ammo unless the rifle shooter wants to - if they are built with any reasonable consistency trying different handloads will yield the same result.

[Swampman]

Once again, it depends.

Back on topic, get a Remington 700 and it won't be a crap shoot.  You'll have an excellent MOA rifle right out of the box....if you (and your ammo) are up to it.

[deltecs]

Well I sure am glad that every Remington will shoot MOA right out of the box with factory ammo every time.  Now that Remington owns Handi Rifle, I'm sure this company would not want any disparaging remarks from the public about Handi accuracy and will ensure its reputation remains unblemished.  I plan to order a 30-30 barrel for my SB2 and if it doesn't shoot MOA with factory ammo, I can send it back with your guarantee of MOA capability with all factory ammo for replacement or repair.  This definitely will save me a lot of time in attempts to find an accurate and effective loading. 

[Swampman]

The NEF .30-30 is one of their most accurate calibers.  You'll like it.  I'd suggest the 170 grain Core-Lokts.  Right now there a $5.00 a box rebate on Core-Lokts for up to 2 boxes.  If you buy them at Walmart, that comes out to about $10.00 a box.

[Coyote Hunter]

Once again, it depends.

Back on topic, get a Remington 700 and it won't be a crap shoot.  You'll have an excellent MOA rifle right out of the box....if you (and your ammo) are up to it.

Not necessarily.  I scoped a Rem M700 SPS for a friend and sighted it in using 3-4 factory loads including a couple by Remington.  1-1/2 to 2 MOA was the best it could do shooting at 100 yards with negligible wind.

[mjbgalt]

Nah, coyotehunter, it is obviously all your fault. never mind that all your other rifles shoot 1" or less. if a remington doesn't shoot great it's always the shooter's fault. you must have zero knowledge of rifles or just totally change everything you do at the bench only when shooting THAT rifle.


shame on you for making remingtons look bad on purpose. 

(gotta love sarcasm)

-Matt

[Swampman]

Once again, it depends.

Back on topic, get a Remington 700 and it won't be a crap shoot.  You'll have an excellent MOA rifle right out of the box....if you (and your ammo) are up to it.

Not necessarily.  I scoped a Rem M700 SPS for a friend and sighted it in using 3-4 factory loads including a couple by Remington.  1-1/2 to 2 MOA was the best it could do shooting at 100 yards with negligible wind.

Something else was wrong.  Probably the scope or the mounts.

[Coyote Hunter]

Once again, it depends.

Back on topic, get a Remington 700 and it won't be a crap shoot.  You'll have an excellent MOA rifle right out of the box....if you (and your ammo) are up to it.

Not necessarily.  I scoped a Rem M700 SPS for a friend and sighted it in using 3-4 factory loads including a couple by Remington.  1-1/2 to 2 MOA was the best it could do shooting at 100 yards with negligible wind.

Something else was wrong.  Probably the scope or the mounts.

And you would know how? 

No, there was nothing wrong with either the scope or the mounts, nor was there anything wrong with my shooting. I was shooting in the calm of the early morning in a protected berm, so wind wasn't a factor either.  That rifle might shoot MOA with handloads but it wouldn't with the factory ammo I tried.

[nomosendero]

Rifles have their own personality, but I USUALLY get the best results with my reloads. Things like being able to seat the bullets for a particular chamber or try a different combination of the best components give you combinations that fact. ammo cannot provide. If someone thinks that most always the fact. is better just tells me he doesn't know enough accuracy tricks in reloading. 

[Swampman]

I didn't say my reloads weren't better than factory.  I said most relaods aren't as good as factory ammo.

Your post tells me you haven't shot factory ammo.

[Coyote Hunter]

I didn't say my reloads weren't better than factory.  I said most relaods aren't as good as factory ammo.

Your post tells me you haven't shot factory ammo.

Nomosendero clearly states that he “USUALLY” gets the best results with his handloads.  “Usually”, not “always”.

Given his statement, rational people would correctly come to the logical conclusion that nomosendero HAS shot factory ammo.

That you come to the opposite conclusion is no big surprise.

[bearmgc]

I have no problem with the original premise of this thread. I've owned many rifles from different manufacturers, no customs, no Kimbers. All but 2 provided adequate hunting accuracy at 100yds, meaning to 2in groups. Most are pretty close to MOA. I shoot stock rifles and factory ammo. I qualify my statements to fact that my rifles are used soley for hunting, and I have no problem getting 1 shot kills. I have no illusions about needing more than what my current herd of rifles provide. The person who said that shooters today may have unrealistic expectations of rifle accuracy, I believe, has a valid point. Basic rifleman skills are not as much a value held by many rifle hunters, as buying the "super rifle". I don't put money into improving accuracy in a rifle, as I have watched others produce a money glut of a project, are not satisfied, and then try to sell it to recoup their money spent. I spend money on ammo and practice with the rifles I have and like. Reloading may, as others have mentioned allow one to tighten groups on many rifles, but I think the best advantage of reloading is that it can cut ammo cost.

[nomosendero]

I didn't say my reloads weren't better than factory.  I said most relaods aren't as good as factory ammo.

Your post tells me you haven't shot factory ammo.

Nomosendero clearly states that he “USUALLY” gets the best results with his handloads.  “Usually”, not “always”.

Given his statement, rational people would correctly come to the logical conclusion that nomosendero HAS shot factory ammo.

That you come to the opposite conclusion is no big surprise.

Yes Coyote Hunter, one would think that is obvious & especially when I had the word USUALLY in bold & all caps, really what more could I do?

I have nothing against swamps in general, but I think Swampman is mired in the swamp & his antennas are covered with mud & he just isn't getting any reception.