Author Topic: in need of HONEST ADVICE  (Read 961 times)

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Offline ENCOREROOKIE

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in need of HONEST ADVICE
« on: July 02, 2003, 03:28:02 PM »
I went out and shot my 243 encore pistol tonight and don't really know how to take it..I only shot 50 yards to get it zero'ed  and get used to the gun.( my first time shooting anything bigger then a .45 acp)before moving it out to 100.I grouped an honest  3/4inch group at 50 yards with yellow box remington core lock bullets...I reload and have some of my 65 gn Vmax to shoot when its close to the bull but darkness set in and i didn't want to rush considering i have 6 diferent loads for the caliber.Is 3/4 good for a pistol at 50 considering the ammo used. I like to see ragged holes as I do with my rifles but i don't want to overexpect myself if it isn't possible in the first place.I know some people get into the "well my gun shoots this group", then to outdo the first then following post will say...mine will do better when in all actuality it probably won't...I don't want people to take it the wrong way...Its not a contest on whether who can shoot the best...because anyone can type on this computer that they get one ragged hole at 200 yard and it may be the truth...may not also .I just want an honest answer that is 3/4 inch at 50 good or  can it be alot better with quality handloads the first 3 shots are close then they start wandering when the barrel gets hot about the 4th shot so then i take a break and clean it

Offline Steve P

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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2003, 03:35:10 PM »
That is a good start.  Clean the barrel good.
I have seen them print 3/4 in groups at 50,  1-1.5" at 100, and then under 1" at 200.  15" barrel?  10 " barrel?  Scoped?  It is not a rifle.  You cannot shoot it like a rifle.  You have a good start.  You will get there.  A little hint with the T/Cs....the max load is usually not the most accurate.

Good Luck,

Steve   :D
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline ENCOREROOKIE

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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2003, 03:54:12 PM »
yea its a 15 inch barrel with a 4X scope on it...I was shooting at a 1 inch bull but even at 50 yards the crosshairs almost cover it up...ive alwayshot at little targets to make you focus more but with the pistol im afraid that if I go to 100 then i won't be able to see the square but on the other hand then if I make a bigger dot then my groups may not be as good cause im aiming at something bigger.. any advice would be appreciated and thanks for the lower then max tip...I always try to start with 1 grain under max and then work my way down with 1 grain increments...i guess thats all part of the fun is trying to figure out what it will shoot

Offline jhalcott

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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2003, 04:19:16 PM »
Rookie, your going the wrong way with reloads!!!!!
  start 5-10 per cent lower than MAX,THEN work up.Book MAX may blow YOUR gun up.!! As far as accuracy is concerned, you admit some inexperience in this field with short guns.so maybe 3/4" is all YOU can do. Practice a while and get familiar with the gun and you will see improvements.I used to shoot coke cans at 300 yards using a 4x scope on a 7br xp100.I also shot a lot of Sillywets back then. So it is possible to get better than 1" at 100yds.  jh

Offline KN

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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2003, 04:32:02 PM »
For first time out thats pretty good. If you can keep that accuracy at 100 then your shooting 1-1/2" and that still aint bad. Personally I have good days and bad days when it comes to accuracy. Most of my guns "WILL" shoot under an inch. But most days I can't. 1-1/2" is probably pretty average for me.  KN

Offline myronman3

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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2003, 04:57:22 PM »
very, very few can wring out every bit of accuracy their gun is capable of.   i include myself in that catagory; and i am pretty good.   shooter error is most likely to blame.   but as stated,  it seems that you are off to a good start.   practice, practice.   dont let group size be the sole point in how you judge the gun.   be practical.   could you kill cleanly with it at 100 yds?   you will improve with time and experience.  develop a accurate load for it; different powders and bullet weights.

Offline SD Handgunner

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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2003, 05:04:18 PM »
Rookie

When I started with my 14" .243 Savage Striker Handgun I really had high expectations. It didn't take long and I was frustrated (and I have been shooting speciality handguns for over 20 years). I burnt up a lot of powder, bullets & primers, but I did get to the point I wanted to be at.

One load that excelled in my 14" .243 Savage Striker featured a 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded with Hodgdon's VARGET Powder. This load was amazingly accurate, but had horrible muzzle flash and blast. However I was a full 1 1/2 grains under Nosler's recommended max with my Accuracy Load for that particular handgun.

I later switched to a faster burning powder, lost about 100 FPS, had almost equal accuracy, but it was much more shooter friendly for sustained Varmint Shoting.

Send me a private message and I can get you the address to an article written about the .243 in a Handgun (actually two articles).

Larry

PS, yes you are off to a good start considering what Factory Ammo did in my .243 Striker. Keep working at it, refine your bench technique, and the small groups will come. Personally I have a hard time shooting SUB MOA Groups with heavy kickers, but then that is just me, and the .243 is not a heavy kicker.
T/C Handguns, one good shot for your moment of truth !

Offline KYODE

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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2003, 06:12:54 PM »
3/4" at 50 is not too bad to start with, especially with factory loads. like others said, that should equal 1 1/2" at 100. 1 1/2" @100 is the best my 7-08 has done at 100 with factory ammo. some go as much as 3"- 4". tailored handloads will definately improve over factory stuff, as will LOTS of practice. bench technique is critical also. i think some targets will also affect group size. a 4x scope is fine, but to get the tightest groups, higher magnification definately helps. this takes getting used to also. 12x really shows your movement on target and takes total concentration.
 like you said, it's easy to get on here and type stuff without proof of actual targets and distance. all i can say is, i wouldn't lie to you for the world. i would get no enjoyment out of that. on my best day with certain guns and calibers, i can shoot a 1/2" group. i'm pleased with less than 1". a 5 shot group 1 1/2" or less will work. anything over that and i'm not satisfied at all. this is in the rifle calibers, i don't have a straight wall case contender barrel YET :roll:

Offline KYODE

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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2003, 06:22:52 PM »
ahhh! i forgot something :roll:  get that trigger down around 2-3lbs and get the forearm off the barrel(keep it from touching as much as possible) by shimming it with folded electrical tape in two spots near the mount screws. i have now modified that idea with small pieces of a broken tape rule(about three thicknesses for shims) then wrap a layer or two of black tape around them. make them about 1/2" square. the broken tape rule shims are also pre- rounded to somewhat fit the barrel correctly. well it works for me anyway. :wink:

Offline kciH

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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2003, 08:21:29 PM »
Encore,
not to worry, you're doing fine.  I'm guessing it took you some time to shoot tiny groups with your rifles, so it's going to take you some time to iron out your bench rest technique with the pistol.  Most Contender and Encore centerfire, bottleneck, chamberings will shoot 1 moa or very close to it in the factory barrels.  Some challenge you a bit more than others.  If you want to maximize your accuracy with the lower powered scope, try some of T/C's specialty targets.  They make some targets with inverted orange V's that are very good for shooting tiny groups, they aren't cheap but they are good.  If you want to maximize your potential at 100-300yds, you are going to have to go to a higher magnification optic.  If you want to use your pistol to hunt with also, get a variable such as the Leupol 2.5-8 or the Burris 3-12.  I like both scopes, and I own both, for the same reasons I like these type of scopes on rifles.  They offer low magnification for hunting and high magnification for load development.  1.5" groups at 100yds are nothing to sneeze at, you're doing just fine.  You will get your pistol to shoot under 1moa at 100yds, you just may have to change your optics.  I started with a TC Contender in 7mm TC/U and moved to a XP-100 in 7mm BR, it would shoot under .75 moa with a ton of different loads using a early 2.5-7 Burris.  I had the pistol rechambered to .284 Winchester and put a 2.5-8 Leupold on it and it will still shoot into less than .75" when I do my part.  I purchased a .35Remington XP-100R a few years ago and have no problem shooting groups under .75 moa with factory ammo.  The reloads are where this caliber really shines.

My reccomendations, other than a ton of practice and load development, would be to purchase a variable scope with more magnification, tailor your targets to your optics, and have a trigger job done on your Encore as they are not that good out of the box.  The triggers are not bad, but they are far from good.  Other than that, shoot the shice out of it and have fun.  That's what it's all about.  The more you shoot it, the better YOU will be, and YOU are usually the limiting factor, not the weapon.  The performance of a firearm is not based soley on the tiny groups, what do .25" groups mean when the pistol is only capable of cleanly taking medium game out to 250yds?  Get some bigger glass and practice, you'll be shooting sub moa groups.  If you find that your pistol will not do this, get a Bullberry or other custom barrel with the floated forend, and introduce yourself to .5 moa groups.

Contrary to popular opinion about straight walled cases, I shoot a .357Max in a Contender that will shoot moa with cast bullets.  I know from shooting with silhouette shooters that this in not uncommon.  I've seen .357 or .375 Supermag DW revolvers that will shoot 2" or less at 100yds with a scope.

Offline Bullseye

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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2003, 01:28:17 PM »
First time you shot the gun!  Factory loads!  I see a lot of not bads and pretty goods in the other posts.  My opinion, that is great, not pretty good or not bad.  I believe a lot of people get MOA groups with a pistol, but not without lots of work.  I can occassional get it myself, but myself has more to do with it than anything.  I guess I just settle for less than the best.  I am happy with 1" groups at 50 and 2 or less at 100.  I think my problem is I enjoy shooting and developing loads to shrink groups which is serious work, but more than that I enjoy having fun and that is why I am tickled with the bigger groups.  Besides, I would rather steel targets anyday over paper and then I never know how big my groups are anyway.

Offline ENCOREROOKIE

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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2003, 05:33:25 AM »
Ya know, I really appreciate everyones advice and guidence that everyone gave me.I'm glad to see theres some honest people in here and not ones that are full of hot air.I think after thinking about everything that i need a variable optic scope but for now (until I hit the lottery..HAHAHA)the 4 power is what i got.I'll just shoot and shoot and then shoot some more and hopefully the groups will get better.this encore stuff is real addicting. too many barrels and not enough time to shoot them...well once again...thanks to everyone that responded and hope everyone has a good and safe 4th of july

Offline SD Handgunner

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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2003, 07:41:36 AM »
Fot shooting with lower powered scopes I made like the center of the old Redfield Targets. They have about the right size aiming grid for a 4x Scope, and the side bars also hep crosshair allignment. I basically make the same thing as the center of this target on regular 8 1/2 x 11 Printer Paper, and then just make as many as I need on a copy machine.

I have found that when using a lower powered scope the target can indeed make a difference.

Larry
T/C Handguns, one good shot for your moment of truth !

Offline rifleman

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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2003, 01:13:10 PM »
You can do it on your computer. I like to use squares. The size will depend on the range you are shooting. I like the square because if you aim at the corners, it's real easy to "exactly" align the crosshairs with the side and bottom of the square.

By the way, for your first time, I'd agree that those are VERY GOOD results.

Dave