Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors

[ms]

 

Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors

Laura Donnelly
London Telegraph
Monday January 28, 2008

Doctors are calling for NHS treatment to be withheld from patients who are too old or who lead unhealthy lives.

Smokers, heavy drinkers, the obese and the elderly should be barred from receiving some operations, according to doctors, with most saying the health service cannot afford to provide free care to everyone.

Fertility treatment and "social" abortions are also on the list of procedures that many doctors say should not be funded by the state.

The findings of a survey conducted by Doctor magazine sparked a fierce row last night, with the British Medical Association and campaign groups describing the recommendations from family and hospital doctors as "out­rageous" and "disgraceful".

(Article continues below)


About one in 10 hospitals already deny some surgery to obese patients and smokers, with restrictions most common in hospitals battling debt.

Managers defend the policies because of the higher risk of complications on the operating table for unfit patients. But critics believe that patients are being denied care simply to save money. I hope this don't come here.

Full article here.
 
 

[magooch]

Socialized medicine is socialized medicine no matter where it is.  One would be foolish to believe that it wouldn't eventually lead to the same end in this country and probably much quicker than in smaller countries.

[SHOOTALL]

Gun control is a cover !
If you wish to control a people - control the food , the water and the health care !
the Russian revolution it is estimated to have killed 25 million , some say many if not most to starvation and disease !
if a group is denied health care then the rest of the groups will fall in line out of fear of loosing theirs !
this is why it should stay private !

[Old Syko]

Typical demigod response that can be expected from all doctors reguardless of socialized or private medicine.  Most doctors I know are addicts of one type or another but in their eyes that's different because of who they are, or better yet who they think they are.  In this country doctors refuse care on a daily basis for the same reasons stated in this article.

[wareagleguy]

While I have not lived in a country with universal health care, I know 4 people that lived for many years in such countries and they all say our health care is a joke.

[SHOOTALL]

wareagleguy , i find that odd !
every time i hunt in Canada I am told horror stories about their medical system , how the funds are cut to doctors and people have to go with out treatment or get it on the black market . I have many friends there now and to a person they hate what they have !
I would guess that someone not interested in working alot might find the free system OK .
I suggest that anyone talk to a friend in Canada , visit them and check out why they have all the health insurance bill boards as you head to the USA border , I'm told they buy the health insurance then head to the US for treatment as they can't get it at home . While in the Islands i noticed alot of doctors from Canada had offices there , again was told they can't make it in Canada so they work in Canada until their allotments are used up then work the rest of the year in the Islands , sometimes 2 doctors will switch back and forth and keep both offices covered !

[magooch]

My question is, who would want to be a doctor if the government is going to dictate how much you can make and who you will treat and how you will treat them?  And if socialized medicine is a good idea, what about socialized car care?  How about socialized housing.

My theory is that you can make any idea work if you put enough effort into it, but inevitably, bad ideas will fail in the end--every time.

What I think we need is more doctors, and medical facilities and more competition.  Nothing's perfect, but the free market system will do until perfect comes along.

[SHOOTALL]

you wouldn't just love a medical system run like the IRS ?

[beemanbeme]

"our health care is a joke".  Do you have any specifics?? Beyond, say, a doctor or hospital expecting you to pay a bill or was that just some sort of sour grapes remark?  And PULEEZE don't give me a rant about the folks that have never worked a day in their lives nor contributed a dime to our economy not getting to go to the front of the line.
Too many able bodied men here is Wild and Wonderful West Virginia walking around on welfare and various disabilities for me to listen to that. 

[dukkillr]

To believe our healthcare system is perfect is to show your own ignorance.  However, I don't think socialism is the answer.  I simply have a hard time believing a gigantic bureaucracy could possibly help the problem. 

Here's a dirty little secret:  Everyone one of us the pay taxes and health insurance premiums already subsidize the uninsured.  The problem is that they don't go to the doctor until they have serious health problems, often things that preventative medicine would have helped.  Of course they don't get the preventative medicine because they don't have insurance... So they get real sick, show up in the ER, and the bill comes to us (by way of the hospital, insurance companies, and government).

Every time one of these social programs comes up I'm reminded that I didn't get to pick my parents.  Since it was pure luck that I was born to a family that HAD health insurance, I feel bad for those less fortunate.  I believe every child should have healthcare.  I'd like for parents to pay for it, but if they can't I won't punish the kids.

[SHOOTALL]

if we keep saying kids should have ............... what ever ...................... even if the parents are a waste , wasted people will keep having kids and the welfare state we are becoming will keep growing and growing and growing !

[ironglow]

  Georgia at one time had a law that made a lot of sense. An indigent woman living off the public, could have one child out of wedlock and collect welfare with no problem. When the second one arrives, she has a choice..no more illegtiment kids(sterilization) or no more welfare. As a result of the deterioration of society..there were enough complaints so Georgia had to cave in and allow unfettered breeding..and still allow them to suck up tax money..

   A spinoff of the "sickly sixties", I presume...

[wareagleguy]

I will try and answer some of the questions.
I know nothing of Canadas  system so I have no remarks.
Don't think for one minute that you have a real choice in the treatment of care you have, unless you have REAL money.

My father is retired from Blue Cross and Blue Shield (BCBS) and he has enlightened me about the health system.  His own words here "healthcare insurance is a ripoff."  First off it is for profit and not for healthcare.  So, your needs are secondary to the bottom line.  If you really want to argue that you need more help than I can provide. Second, the healthcare system is socialized already.  What I mean by this is doctors get a check each month from insurance companies regardless if he/she has provided any service.  This includes hospitals and service providers.  BCBS has a system called Preferred Care Providers which means any doctor, hospital, or any other provider on this system gets paid every month even if not one single person is treated.  This creates a system that doesn't want to treat people.  Who would not love to get paid for not working?

I had to have surgery several years ago.  The total bill was just under $24,000.  The total amount that BCBS paid was less than $2,000.  I paid $1,200 out of pocket on top of the premiums I pay each month and not counting what my company pays.   If you didn't have insurance you would pay the total bill!!!

Second you must be approved by the insurance company for treatment.  If the company thinks the treatment isn't needed you must pay for it yourself.  Again, you are the compaired to the bottom line.  Do you think you will win?

I know there will be people on this forum that has no coverage.  You are sitting on a land mine, my friend.  I hope for you that you never get cancer, heart attack or any other long term illness.  If you do, everything you have worked for will be gone.  Just ask my uncle.

This system we have just isn't working.  We are paying too much for too little and it's because we have too many middle men.  I just don't have an answer to what system we need but I do know that an insurance system isn't it.

[toysoldier]

Having worked in hospitals for 35 years (and having had 13 surgeries), I have developed some strong opinions about our health care system.

When socialized medicine was being discussed 25 years ago, I said that either insurance companies would be telling us who we could see and what care we would receive, or a government bureaucrat would be doing so. Private insurance would be out for a profit; government bureaucracy would become bloated and inefficient. I then asked what would cost us more---corporate greed, or government inefficiency. I suggested greed.

I believe I have been proved correct.

Competition does not reduce health care cost, it drives it up. When people demand immediate attention for every little ailment (and lawyers sue for every little problem), heath care providers oblige by providing duplicate services that are paid for by unnecessary tests and procedures. My little town has 3 multi-million MRI scanners, with another one (suitable for scanning the ever-growing number of people who are eating themselves to death) on the way.

When the state of Oregon announced that it would not pay for liver transplants for Medicaid recipients (so that it could instead provide prenatal care for every low-income mother in the state), all heck broke loose. Never mind that most liver failure is caused by alcohol and/or drug abuse, or (especially in Oregon) eating the wrong wild mushrooms. Never mind that transplant recipients require lifelong medication to maintain even a mediocre quality of life. EVERYONE is entitled to EVERYTHING!

Maybe I'm approaching burnout. When I come in on call to set up surgery for a drunken moron who got pissed at his girlfriend and smashed his hand hitting a concrete wall, I have no sympathy at all, just resentment that I had to get out of bed to treat the jerk. With anger issues like that, he can't hold a job, so he has no insurance, and the surgeon, anesthesiologist, and hospital won't see a dime.

[beemanbeme]

When someone says, with a curl to their socialistic lips, that the insurance companies are making money, the hospitals are interested in a profit, doctors only work for their fees, etc, I can only say, "Well, Duh."  They are businesses. They have to make a profit or they wouldn't be there.  The fellow that changes the oil in your car, do you think he does it because he loves you?  Do you think he really likes going home at night and when he eats, every bite tastes like the oil and grease he can't get totally off his hands?  No, he's in it for the money. And if he had spent as many years and as much money learning how to change oil and faced as many friviloous law suits by get rich quick sleazy lawyers and clients, I daresay we couldn't afford to have our oil changed.
I do feel sorry for the kids.  but I agree wholeheartedly about the sterilization OF THE MOTHER AND THE FATHER.  Here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, I have talked to teachers in elementary school that would talk to third graders about oral hygiene and get blank looks. Here were 9 and 10 year old children that did not own a toothbrush. That there was not a toothbrush in their homes.  Why not? Free dental that you and I pay for.  And the mother is still breeding like a rat.  That you and I pay for. Here there is medical care available to everyone and you pay what you are able.  But you have to go to a clinic and wait your turn.  You are first seen by a Nurse Practicioner and if your case warrents, you then see a doctor.  To many -- that feel all of this is theirs by birthright rather than charity-- it's not fair that they should wait in line. So they let a minor problem go on until they call 911 and get a free ride in an ambulance and go to the emergency room. 
In my little corner of the world , I see so many abuses of the welfare programs and medicAID, by both the clients and the providers, that it staggers one to try to imagine the government trying to run a nationwide health care program.  No, with all its faults, and trying to make a profit isn't one of them, I think we still have the best system going.  And as yet, no one has come up with a better idea.  Finding fault and whining without offering any sort of viable alternative is simply that: finding fault and whining.   

[SHOOTALL]

lets cut the BS , every time Govt. has a new hand out we are closer to loosing what freedom we have left !
and like any war be it on a battle field or not there will be people that die .
so if you vote to not have public financed hand out health care you know some will die for lack of money to pay !
if you vote for it you know one more freedom has been lost and people will die because they were not worthy of spending the money to save um !
the only difference is who decides who lives !

[wareagleguy]

What more can be said.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

My question is, who would want to be a doctor if the government is going to dictate how much you can make and who you will treat and how you will treat them?  And if socialized medicine is a good idea, what about socialized car care?  How about socialized housing.

Isn't that EXACTLY what the HMO's are doing right now?!! 

Jim

[Dusty Miller]

My wife is a nurse (45 years) who brings home horror stories of money grubbing surgeons who do cancer and heart surgeries on people so old and feeble there is no way they'll survive the effects of the surgery even if the cancer or heart problem is solved.  They can't live the kind of life style they want without putting old people, who are going to die soon regardless of their medical care, thru yet one more medical procedure that is going to hasten their demise.  Its ugly and there's nobody watching who can put a stop to it. 

[SHOOTALL]

dustymiller , not saying anything you posed was not true , but who should watch ?
in my state i can pick who repairs my car if it is damaged in an accident , but the insurance tells me who to fix me !

[Dee]

My wife is a nurse (45 years) who brings home horror stories of money grubbing surgeons who do cancer and heart surgeries on people so old and feeble there is no way they'll survive the effects of the surgery even if the cancer or heart problem is solved.  They can't live the kind of life style they want without putting old people, who are going to die soon regardless of their medical care, thru yet one more medical procedure that is going to hasten their demise.  Its ugly and there's nobody watching who can put a stop to it. 

Good Grief! Your kind of thinking is JUST WHAT WE NEED. An entity whom gets to decided WHOM IS WORTH SAVING. How BARBARIC! These old people AND THEIR FAMILIES are making these decisions, and well they should be rather than some moron, whom is trying to save money when it is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. If your wife doesn't like what she sees, let her get another job. She obviously needs a change when she stops seeing other peoples hope, regardless of the situation. Your a socialist!

[toysoldier]

The harsh reality of modern medicine is that, many times, treatment does not save lives, it only prolongs death. Many years ago, a study showed that 50% of all Medicare dollars paid for care in the last 2 weeks of life. I'm sure tht percentage has increased. Just as DM posted, there are doctors who, through greed or the inability to admit they aren't God and capable of miracles, impose extraordinary procedures on people who have exactly zero chance of getting out of the hospital alive. THAT is cruelty---subjecting dying, confused, sometimes unresponsive patients to the cruelties (and outrageous expense) of surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation therapy (and raising false hope among their family) instead of letting them fade away with some grace and dignity.

Life is precious, but so is quality of life. There is a really, really big difference between "alive" and "living".

[ironglow]

   I am surprised that some folks get their britches all twisted..complaining that Doctors, insurance companies and HMOs are in business to make a profit .
   Why am I not surprised that any business is set up in order to clear a profit ?
        Honest profit is only a dirty word in the socialist/Marxist lexicon.."honest" being the operative adjective ! Dishonest profit is a pure crime against
   all that is dcent !
 
     ToySoldier has pointed out some flaws, glaring flaws that exist with the present system and would doubtless occur in a govt controlled system.
   
  Doctors are so paralyzed with lawyer-phobia that people are being sent for all types of diagnostic Xrays, MRIs, sonograms and myriad other tests,
  not because the honest Doctor believes the patient really needs the test, but because he wants to be covered, should the patient be persuaded to
  sue, 10 years down the road !
      They say that we are facing a potential doctor shortage just a very few years down the road. Perhaps it would be wise to encourage  more people
  to enter medical schools and fewer encouraged to enter law schools.

       As I recall, when Pres Bush came into office, he tried very hard to pass tort reform, limiting outlandish settlements, which in some cases..lawyers ,
   rather than the patient..got the lion's share of.

    Of course, we all know what happened..the Democrats alliance with the trial lawyers (e.g. John Edwards) killed the effort...

[Graybeard]

If doctors stop treating us old and unhealthy folks then they aren't gonna be rich anymore. We're the ones they make those millions on each year. The yound and healthy don't need doctors but us old and unhealthy folks do and are the reason they get into the profession in the first place knowing there are plenty of us to keep them in business.

[ironglow]

   But you see difference, GB..here, the doctors want to keep treating us "oldsters" since it is profitable.
   In a Socialist system, with socialized medicine and set doctor's wages, there is no incentive to keep us alive..just more work for them ! ..LOL
      The same socialized medicine that some are clamoring for here, would be the very death of some of those doing the clamoring.
   Socialist states are noted for their lack of faith based compassion. Treatment is often based upon the patient's "usefulness".
                  Under socialized medicine..we could start down that long, slippery slope toward elimination of the "useless eaters" as Marx called them .
   Those who are handicapped, aged or have a family history of "living off the dole", would all be in danger.
     Sound outrageous ? The Netherlands is already "euthanizing" the elderly and handicapped babies..and some of their doctors are campaigning to do
    so without the family's permission.
     
    Note: That long, slippery slope could shorten dramatically, should hard times come..

[beemanbeme]

I think GB and Ironglow are on the same side of the fence. Folks are screaming about the high cost of health care but one of the reasons for the high cost that they aren't admitting is the high cost of malpractice insurance. Doctors and hospitals. With the blatant ads from the lawyers on TV and the media hoopla over multi-million dollar law suits, I'm surprised we even have doctors that will practice. Here in Wild and Wonderful, suing someone with deep pockets with a contingent suit is considered the next best thing to winning the lottery. The droolers want to get free medical care, free hospitalization and then sue for malpractice. 

[Graybeard]

Yup too many lawsuits are ruining the country. I had a super good case of where many would have sued a year or more ago. I had major tooth pain and was in so much pain I was really at the point I could understand how folks can take their lives. Yeah it was bad.

I managed to find a dentist who would see me even tho my dentist would not. I had no prior experience with this guy. I had no doubt my jaw was severely infected as it was swelled up tremendously and I was in more pain that my tolerance level. His conclusion was the tooth wasn't impacted as dentist like to call the situation but that what was really needed was just a root canal. I should have had the tooth pulled I guess as he did say it was cracked but he was sure he could save it and I've lost too many already.

I asked if he was sure his plan for a root canal would make the pain go away as at that time I told him the ONLY thing that mattered to me really was that the pain go away. He assured me it would. So he began the root canal but stopped not much more than half way thru and sent me home with no pain med and no antibotic either.

That evening the pain was much worse I do mean MUCH worse. I called Matt and told him I must have relief and that one way or another the pain was going to end. He came to get me and brought some sorta pill that is supposed to take away all cares and worries to include pain. It did NOTHING. He took me to the hospital where they gave me two major pain meds a shot and a pill and some antibiotics and mostly just plain knocked me out.

They held me 2-3 hours and the pain did subside enough I was able to go home. I went back to him the next day and he messed around with the tooth a bit more but still failed to complete the job. I had a good pain med and antibiotic by now thanks to the hospital doctor and managed to get thru it and when the antibiotic which is likely what should have been given to me to begin with did its job the pain left but I still ended up going to yet another dentist for care for the tooth the other had not completed the job on in three visits.

The original dentist had told me the cost for what he was gonna do and insisted on half on first visit and half on second visit which I paid. Then almost a year later he sent me another bill for a substantial amount over and above what he had told me the full cost would be.

I explained to him in no uncertain terms that there would be NO additional payment and that he had only half assed done the job to begin with and that I'd had to seek additional help to fix the problem and that what I really SHOULD do is file a malpractice suit against him and that if I heard one more peep from him it would happen instantly.

If ever there was a time when a malpractice suit was appropriate against a doctor this was it. I didn't file as I never heard back from him but this would have been my one time to do such a thing if he had attempted to bill me again. I really feel his license to practic should be pulled for the safety of others who he might also do wrong but I'm not really a crusader and once I was out of the major pain I had all I really wanted to do was forgot that low life even existed.