Author Topic: Controllable revolver killing, loads, heavy bullets, etc. (LBT design history)  (Read 2179 times)

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Offline HHI 812

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Please read the last post for lengthy design history answer. Veral


Veral,
You answered on another post, and ended with the standard weight for a .44 being at 240 grain. What is standard weight for a .45, .475, .500", .510"? I have a .45 Colt revolver lightweight, that cannot handle the hot Ruger type loads. What would you advise for a short barreled 45 Colt revolver, for lighter framed 45 Colts? Not going to hunt grizzlies with it, but they are usually in the area. I guess what I'm trying to say, its going to be a last resort thing, but want to be sure I have enough if I have to. Thinking of a load that I could shoot one handed, probably wet weather so don't want the gun flying out of my hand from recoil, up close and quick, and hopefully get off multiple shots? I know, a lot to ask, but what weight bullet, LFN, WFN or WLN, what minimum velocity? Enough to break bone on game, but not my hand from recoil.

Offline Veral

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Re: Controllable .45 Colt bullet, load, weight?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 03:04:22 PM »
  One thing all gunners should understand about facing up to something big and dangerous is that when you touch the gun off recoil will feel like a BB gun, you will hardly hear the shot, and only the bear could get the gun out of your hand.  Adrenaline changes us a bit.

  But your questions need answering as you want the gun to be nice to shoot.  250 gr is standard for 45 colt, and there is no standard for the 475 and larger.

  If your gun is a fixed sight one you'll need to stick with the standard weight to get proper POI shooting with the standard 800 fps velocity, approximately.  But you can soup it up a bit by burning the slower powders which will keep the pressure down and allow maybe 900 fps with a bit heavier bullet like 260 gr, which will hit to the sights with the higher velocity.
Veral Smith

Offline HHI 812

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Re: Controllable .45 Colt bullet, load, weight?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 06:22:40 PM »
Gun has adjustable sights. WFN, LFN or WLN? I have chronoed a load with a 255 SWC @ 1200fps, and a 340 @ 950 fps, but not sure which would be a better hitter? The heavy going slower, or the lighter going faster? Gun weighs 30 ounces, so was hoping to lower the velocity, to make it controllable for one hand shooting, but want to be sure there was enough to bust big bones of a bear if needed. Also, can one overdo the meplat diameter? An example being a OWC meplat? With a bigger meplat, less velocity is needed to get the ideal DV. So if not looking for a long range bullet, would a OWC work the best of all, because of the big meplat?

Offline Veral

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Re: Controllable .45 Colt bullet, load, weight?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2008, 05:16:46 PM »
  One can definately overdo meplate diameter.  I did a lot of work when developing the my bullets and the WFN is near the maximum width that will penetrate straight  with heavy bullets driven at stout velocities or lighter weights going slow.  Get a 260 gr WFN and drive it at 1200 and you'll never look back.  It will break very heavy bone, but will probably stop in the shoulder joint of a large bear, but break it in doing so, which will do a good job of slowing him down.  However, the shoulder joint would rarely if ever be presented ahead of the heart lung area if a bear is after you, so don't even think of that concern.  At 1200 fps DV will be at optimum.  You'll love it.
Veral Smith

Offline HHI 812

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Re: Controllable .45 Colt bullet, load, weight?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
Veral,
Noticed that as you go up in caliber, the percentage of meplat vs. caliber changes? Example being say a .44 LFN is like 70% of caliber, but as you go up to say a .50 cal, percentage of caliber is 74% of caliber? Is this how it works as it goes up in caliber? Maybe I'm just playing with numbers, but just curious because meplat seems to get bigger percentage wise with bigger calibers? So bullet weight isn't really a big factor with your DV working? As you well know, heavier bullets was the big thing that suppose to penetrate better. Or is penetration being over played now days? Have you seen the Linebaugh penetration tests? Ross wrote a lot about heavy bullet giving better penetration and thus better killing power. Am I reading too much gun magazines??????
Thanks,
Dennis

Offline Veral

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Re: Controllable .45 Colt bullet, load, weight?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2008, 09:40:49 AM »
  You have it right when considering LBT bullets.  Meplat percentage goes up as caliber goes up.  LBT molds cavities are cut on a tracer lathe, a very special one I might add, that has 0 backlash.  I had to build it to get what I wanted.  The tracer stylis follows a 10 times oversize negative of one side of the outside profile of a bullet.  So the outside shape of the bullet is fixed with any given profile.  With the WFN the pattern has an ogive curve which is nine tenths of an inch less than the bullets bearing surface.  This pattern is more than 10 times  longer than any bullet that will be cut with it, so to cut a specific bullet the pattern is placed to give the desired overall length, and clamped in place.  Check shank crimp and lube groove patterns are loose pieces which are then clamped in the appropriate places.   This setup give me complete flexibility to produce bullets with any desired crimp groove to nose length, lube groove etc.  In other words, every mold I make is essentially custom.  If I'm lucky and get more than one order for the same bullet weight and caliber, perhaps only the check shank and lube grooves will have to be changed, or nose length or whatever, but each is custom.

  Regarding weight.  When I started making molds in 1981 there were only a few really heavy handgun bullets available and they would not consistently penetrate straight, this due to too small a meplat, a poor flight form, bad bearing design, etc etc, which also demanded 60,000 psi to get them up to enough speed where they would deliver the dreamed of power potential. At any rate, I determined to develop the heaviest most powerful and most accurate bullets ever made.  With the new mold lathe and its flexibility I could make only one change at a time to a given bullet length and diameter.  So I played with meplat size only to see what happened, then lube groove size and arrangement, nose length etc etc.

  I worked 16 hour days 6 days a week for 6 months with this kind of development, which taught me what no other man in history had been able to learn about what makes cast bullets perform.  I started selling molds then, but my testing and experimenting have never stopped, so I've learned a lot more.  My best heavy weight 44 revolver bullets for example, with nose length set up to fill the cylinder of the gun of interest will produce more velocity than standard weight jacketed with essentially the same pressures.   This if LBT bullet lube is used.  I must add that I had already gone after the bullet lube thing with the same passion as I did bullet design.  That cost us our complete life savings, and didn't pay back anything like I had hoped for, so during the mold making venture we lived on ' muckets and sawdust' if you don't mind the imaginary diet.  We were poor enough that when our daughter was seriously injured in an auto accident we had to  drive 400 miles and live on the contents of a fruit jar of coins we had collected over a few years, silver dollars 50 cent pieces etc.

  So the bullets which I developed are far more powerful than has ever been possible before, with the most power gain in the 44 mag being with the 320 gr WLN and LFN with .5 nose in the longer cylinder revolvers like the Redhawk, where foot pounds energy is a full 3 times what factory jacketed bullet loads put out.

  Now lets go back to the Kieth bullet which was the best cast bullet performer available when the heavy bullet rage started, the rage that inspired my bullet development.  The Kieth was known for penetration through anything, with decent but not superb killing punch.  As a side by side  comparison in those early LBT days a very brief pressure test  was done with a standard powder charge behind the 250 Kieth and my 250 LFN gc.  The LFN left the muzzle with 50 fps more speed and did it with about 10,000 less pressure!  If the pressure had been raised to equal that of the Kieth the LFN would have been delivering probably 200 fps more velocity or more.  But the LFN meplat is the same as a REAL kieth, so penetration goes even farther off the chart than with the Kieth!

  All this to answer your question about needing heavy weight bullets.  I developed far too heavy weights for deer and elk hunters, which comprise probably 99% of my customers.  And they KICK!  But the Kieth kicked too much for most shooters, back when it was the thing, mostly because the S&W is more painful to shoot than many other revolvers.  Therefore, I try to tone down what people buy so they get what klls like the hammer of thor out front, but not behind.   


  So, yes, penetration is being overplayed these days by gun writers who aren't really familiar with LBT designs or are locked unto old ideas.  Ideas which put too much emphasis  on the effect penetration has on killing power.  Weight must only be heavy enough to maintain a high enough velocity when the bullet exits that the wound channel is large enough for rapid bleeding.  Excess over that means intensified recoil that will only make bullet placement more difficult, and a properly placed bullet is the most important factor there is in taking game cleanly.   I work hard to deliver just that whenever I make recommendations to my customers. 
Veral Smith