Which caliber for varmint shooting in the wind?

[Luckyducker]

I have a Thompson Center Encore rifle with the ProHunter 204 Ruger Barrel that is amazingly accurate with 40 grain Hornady V-Max bullets when shooting targets at 100 yds, but when shooting at longer distances in the wind, which is the norm here in SW Kansas, the bullets blow all over.  I had started to think maybe a 6mm bore with bullets in the 55 to 60 grain weight might work but lately I have started thinking maybe a 243 Win or a 6mm Rem with a faster twist barrel to shoot heavier bullets (85 to 105)  might buck the wind better than the light weights.  Also I have considered a 22/250 with an 8" twist for the 75 to 80 grain slugs.  What are the thoughts of you gun cranks and varmint shooters? 

[rbergum95]

the .243 bucks the wind pretty well, so would a .22-250 with heavier slugs. i have a savage .243 with a 1:9 twist barrel that shoots 100 grain factory loads into 3/4 inch consistently. handloads will probably do better when i get around to making some.

[Catfish]

Look through some external ballistic charts where you can compare bullets of different cal`s., weights, and velocities. Then you have a far better understanding of what your looking for than to just have someone tell you to get this or that. These charts in in most reloading manuals and can be found on the web. If the wind speed is constant it`s not to hard to allow for, with a little practice, especially if you carry something to measure wind speed and a range finder.

[DalesCarpentry]

I second the 243 Win. Dale

[trotterlg]

When you run the numbers you will see that time of flight is everything, the first bullet to the target has the least drift.  Larr

[DalesCarpentry]

When you run the numbers you will see that time of flight is everything, the first bullet to the target has the least drift.  Larr

Sorry Larry. I have to disagree with that totally. The 204 is one of the fastest rounds out there. It is the light bullets that get blow en off target. Dale

[trotterlg]

Like I said, run the numbers and then tell me that.  Larry

[trotterlg]

.243 90gr bullet 3000fps =11 inch drift at 20MPH wind at 200 yards

.204 30gr bullet 4000fps =9 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards

You need to work the numbers with the type of bullet you are using the muzzel velocity you can get etc, but you can see that time of flight beats weight most every time.  Keeping that speed out to 500 yards or so would not work out this way, but inside of 200 yards light and fast it the way to go.  Larry

[DalesCarpentry]

When I stated that I was refering to long range. 200 yards is still short range. Dale

[Coyote Hunter]

When you run the numbers you will see that time of flight is everything, the first bullet to the target has the least drift.  Larr

When you run the numbers you see just how wrong that statement is.

TOF is NOT everything. Not even close. Not even at 200 yards, let alone further.

Take the following examples:

.204 Ruger, 32g V-MAX @ 4225fps (BC .210, Hornady load)
.243 Win, 65g V-MAX @ 3598fps (BC .280, Hodgdon data because Hornady doesn’t load this bullet. This is Hodgdon’s slowest load.)
.25-06, 75g V-MAX @ 3339fps (BC .290, Hodgdon data because Hornady doesn’t load this bullet. This is Hodgdon’s slowest load.)
.25-06, 117g SST @ 2960fps (BC .390, Hornady load)
.300 Win Mag, 180g SST @ 2960fps (BC .480, Hornady load)

Given a 10mph wind and sorted by wind drift from least to most, ETA and Drift look like the following:

200yds
.308 Win, 180g, .217sec, 2.51”
.25-06, 117g, .220sec, 3.08”
.243 Win, 65g, .186sec, 3.41”
.25-06, 75g, .200sec, 3.65”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .164sec, 3.92”

300yds
.308 WM, 180g, .336sec, 5.70”
.25-06, 117g, .341sec, 7.08”
.243 Win, 65g, .296sec, 8.12”
.25-06, 75g, .318sec, 8.56”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .266sec, 9.36”

400yds
.308 WM, 180g, .465sec, 10.56”
.25-06, 117g, .477sec, 13.27”
.243 Win, 65g, .420sec, 15.19”
.25-06, 75g, .457sec, 16.18”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .385sec, 17.75”

500yds
.308 WM, 180g, .604sec, 17.16”
.25-06, 117g, .624sec, 21.51”
.243 Win, 65g, .560sec, 25.17”
.25-06, 75g, .601sec, 26.65”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .525sec, 29.92”

As you can see, the .204 Ruger arrives first in every case – with the greatest drift in each case as well.

Some might be tempted to say I cherry-picked the loads to get the results shown – I did not.  I started with Hornady .204 Ruger and .243 Win loads, then added the .25-06 75g load because I happen to be a fan of the .257 Roberts with the 75g V-MAX (although I shoot it at much faster speeds than the .25-06/3339fps used in the example).  Then I added Hornady’s .25-06 117g SST and .300 Win Mag 180g SST loads at random.

As is almost always the case, its not just about one factor or another but rather about a balance of multiple factors.  In this case bullet weight and Ballistic Coefficient are more important than initial velocity or Time Of Flight.

[Coyote Hunter]

.243 90gr bullet 3000fps =11 inch drift at 20MPH wind at 200 yards

.204 30gr bullet 4000fps =9 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards

You need to work the numbers with the type of bullet you are using the muzzel velocity you can get etc, but you can see that time of flight beats weight most every time.  Keeping that speed out to 500 yards or so would not work out this way, but inside of 200 yards light and fast it the way to go.  Larry

How about this comparison instead?

.204 32g V-MAX bullet 4225fps = 8.1 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards, TOF .165sec  (Hornady load)
.243 65g V-MAX bullet 3598 = 7.1 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards, TOF .187sec (Hodgdon’s SLOWEST load)
.243 65g V-MAX bullet 3598 = 6.7 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards, TOF .179sec (Hodgdon’s FASTEST load)

Or these?
.308 180g SST bullet 2960fps = 5.1 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards, TOF .217sec  (Hornady load)
.22-250 50g V-MAX bullet 3800fps = 7.8 inch drift at 20mph wind at 200 yards, TOF .180sec  (Hornady load)

Once again, TOF is not the determining factor.   The .204 Ruger wins the race in terms of TOF but is dead last in terms of wind drift.

By the way, while I didn’t check the others, the .22-250 load above matches the .204 Ruger in wind drift as close in as 100 yards (1.9” for both).

[panhandle]

I use several rifles when I shoot the P-dog towns.  We normally shoot with 2 or 3 shooters.  We setup our shooting sessions with the wind straight at our backs or into our face.  Don't have to fight cross winds and makes the shooting much more productive.  Sometimes we just can't make that work and normally will end up shooting the heavier bullet rifles for those sessions. 

[swampthing]

45-70 through the big .50's, buffalo killers of yesteryear ruined the herds with these big and slow projectiles at ranges that will make some people call them liars.
Look at the .50BMG it's no screamer. With a 750g match bullet, B.C.'s of 1.0+  @2750fps, "wind" at sub-500yds ranges, issues you will have not.
     

[beemanbeme]

A 750gr .50BMG bullet would tend to wear a Pdog out wouldn't it?? 
Anyway, who shoots Pdogs at 200 yards?  Those are chip shots and if you made one, you'd lose your next go.   'Sides, the wind is part of the fun.

[Kmrere42]

Hi,


So let me get this straight,  For bucking the wind at distance what I should look for is a very high BC in the .500 range.  This eliminates most bullets except the heaviest in the 6mm and the 6.5mm bore size. 

The idea of sending a $2. projo downrange after dogs of any kind seems a bit much.  I would think that anything in the .400 range would be more cost effective and allow one to survive the beating received after telling the wife that you sent the dinner money flying after P-Dogs. 


Just curious,  If after such an episode would you say anything to her if when you sat down to dinner and found a stuffed and baked P-Dog under the large covered platter....




Paul

[glwenzl]

I have a 20 BR that likes the 40 gr V-Max at around 4050 fps and it shoots real well in the wind and in most cases real consistent once i find how much I am drifting....

That said once we was shooting at a PD at 800 yards in a pretty good wind... I finaly gave up, the 20 BR was all over the place... A friend that works at Hornady got out his fast twist AR-15/223 using the 75 gr HP (a lil shorter than the 75 a-max and will stabilize from his 223) and hit several PDs at that range... I was amazed and am now working on a 9 twist CZ 223 barrel but will have it chambered to use the 204 case...

[corbanzo]

The wind affects the bullet only as much as the bullets energy will allow.  The bullet with the highest energy, will have the lowest wind drift, because the wind exerts force on the bullet, in a certain direction, while the energy of that bullet (or inertia) tries to keep it moving in another. 

The role that the BC plays, is that if a bullet loses speed faster, it also loses energy faster.  Meaning that a bullet with a low BC and high speed could start out with low drift at short range, and have a bigger drift, in comparison, at longer range while losing speed faster.

So if you really want to decide on a bullet in a caliber, just look at the energy chart for it.  If it keeps good energy downrange, it is going to have the best wind resistant trajectory.  Of course there is a point where it has to be "good enough" so you aren't wasting money. 

I would say .243, or .22-250/.220 swift with larger bullets, as rbergum95 was saying.

[PartsMan]

Maybe this will help.

[petemi]

Thank you all very much for a lot of very useful info.  Pete

[Coyote Hunter]

The wind affects the bullet only as much as the bullets energy will allow.  The bullet with the highest energy, will have the lowest wind drift, because the wind exerts force on the bullet, in a certain direction, while the energy of that bullet (or inertia) tries to keep it moving in another. 
…

Well, that is just nonsense and easily disproven.

Take my examples above and we’ll add in one of my .45-70 loads.  Here is how they stack up in terms of energy (sorted by caliber and then bullet weight, as before):
1268fpe = .204 Ruger, 32g V-MAX @ 4225fps (BC .210, Hornady load)
1868fpe = .243 Win, 65g V-MAX @ 3598fps (BC .280, Hodgdon data because Hornady doesn’t load this bullet. This is Hodgdon’s slowest load.)
1857fpe = .25-06, 75g V-MAX @ 3339fps (BC .290, Hodgdon data because Hornady doesn’t load this bullet. This is Hodgdon’s slowest load.)
2276fpe = .25-06, 117g SST @ 2960fps (BC .390, Hornady load)
3502fpe = .300 Win Mag, 180g SST @ 2960fps (BC .480, Hornady load)
3696fpe = .45-70, 350g Speer FP @ 2147fps (BC .232, handload)

According to your theory the .45-70 - which has the most energy by a significant margin - should easily beat the others in wind drift.  It does not and in fact it comes in as follows:

200yds
.308 Win, 180g, .217sec, 2.51”
.25-06, 117g, .220sec, 3.08”
.243 Win, 65g, .186sec, 3.41”
.25-06, 75g, .200sec, 3.65”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .164sec, 3.92”
.45-70 350g, .330sec, 8.84”

300yds
.308 WM, 180g, .336sec, 5.70”
.25-06, 117g, .341sec, 7.08”
.243 Win, 65g, .296sec, 8.12”
.25-06, 75g, .318sec, 8.56”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .266sec, 9.36”
.45-70 350g, .540sec, 21.34”

400yds
.308 WM, 180g, .465sec, 10.56”
.25-06, 117g, .477sec, 13.27”
.243 Win, 65g, .420sec, 15.19”
.25-06, 75g, .457sec, 16.18”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .385sec, 17.75”
.45-70 350g, .787sec, 40.16”

500yds
.308 WM, 180g, .604sec, 17.16”
.25-06, 117g, .624sec, 21.51”
.243 Win, 65g, .560sec, 25.17”
.25-06, 75g, .601sec, 26.65”
.204 Ruger, 32g, .525sec, 29.92”
.45-70 350g, 1.067sec, 64.84”

So the bullet with the most energy, the 350g from the .45-70, has the most wind deflection (by a factor of more than 2x !!!)  in every case.

[PartsMan]

There is a pattern for B.C.
Higher B.C. and velocity are the key to beating the wind.

P.S. Coyote Hunter
Some ware in there your 300WM turned into a 308win.

[DalesCarpentry]

There is a pattern for B.C.
Higher B.C. and velocity are the key to beating the wind.

P.S. Coyote Hunter
Some ware in there your 300WM turned into a 308win.

I agree along with weight of bullet. I believe it is a combination of all three. Dale

[PartsMan]

Of course you have to think about recoil and safety.
Shooting a 300UM with 200g bullets all day will leave it's mark.
Also you need a backstop with that big a bullet. Those are scarce in Kansas fields.

[Coyote Hunter]

There is a pattern for B.C.
Higher B.C. and velocity are the key to beating the wind.

P.S. Coyote Hunter
Some ware in there your 300WM turned into a 308win.

What is required is a balance of velocity, BC and bullet weight.  None by itself guarantees anything.

You are correct about the change in terminology from a .300 Win Mag to a .308 Win.  I caught that this morning as I was posting and made the changes.  The correct cartridge is the .300 Win Mag/180g loaded to a rather sedate 2960fps.

[DalesCarpentry]

There is a pattern for B.C.
Higher B.C. and velocity are the key to beating the wind.

P.S. Coyote Hunter
Some ware in there your 300WM turned into a 308win.

What is required is a balance of velocity, BC and bullet weight.  None by itself guarantees anything.

You are correct about the change in terminology from a .300 Win Mag to a .308 Win.  I caught that this morning as I was posting and made the changes.  The correct cartridge is the .300 Win Mag/180g loaded to a rather sedate 2960fps.

That is what I am saying. It is a combination of all three. Dale

[Larry Gibson]

Try the 87 gr V-Max (BC of .4) at 3450 fps out of 26" barreled 6mm Remington with 12" twist. 38+ years of PD, rock chuck and picket pin long range shooting (200-1000 yards) says that's the one.  I base that on actual shooting not computerized programs. I've used all sorts of cartridges from .22 Hornet, 17 H&R up through the 6.5-280. The 6.5-280 with a 120 MK at 3250 comes in a close second. Although they come out pretty decent on the computer too!

Larry Gibson

[billy_56081]

Another great wind combo for varmints in windy conditions is a 25-06 with 85 grain ballistic tips. They have a BC of a little under .400 and can be run around the 3500 fps mark with careful handloads. Reloader 22 seems to get the most velocity out of this bullet for me.

[NAM70]

Here's another article on the 204 and contains a little information on wind drift but he mentions that his information isn't complete yet. Dave
http://www.204ruger.com/204_overview.php

[onesonek]

Some interested stuff here, but basically, speed shoots flatter, high BC's buck wind better as stated. I can deal with rainbow trajectories quite easily, reading the wind right can be frustrating at times. I'll take high BC's any day over speed, but specially once you start pushin in to and past the 6 - 800 yd.  But speed is good thing at under 500yds, however I do use the speed demons for certain things at certain times.
 Your thinkin of the 22-250 and heavier weights would be good choice depending on range.
better yet would be a 22-250 AI and the 90 grainers, then you are talking 1000 yds plus rig. And better yet would be the 22-243 or variations there of. But for bucking wind and long range work, I prefer the 6mm AI and VLD's.
What ever you do, just make sure your barrel has the twist for the bullet(s) you want to use.

I do use the 220 Swift with 40 gr. well over 4000fps, but is pretty useless in a stiff or varying breeze once past 4-500 yds. (granted 50's or 55's would do better)...Then I move up to the 6mmAI using 55gr at 4000 fps+ out to 800 (pending the wind). Beyond that I use the 6mmAI fast twist 107 or 112 VLD's  for bucking wind at long range. Also I'm thinking on the .22-243 in a 1-7" twist, just to fill a small niche.

Dave

[Varmint Hunter]

Bullet weight is wholly irrelevant. Wind drift is a product of BC and TOF.

In any given cartridge the following "generally" applies:

for shots under 500 yards a light/fast bullet will be less affected by the effects of wind
for shots over 500 yards a slower bullet with increased BC will resist the wind better

A high BC bullet is normally too much slower than a lighter/faster bullet to make up for the short TOF of the fast bullet. However, light (lower BC) bullets loose velocity much faster and loose the advantage  of short TOF over the long haul. This is where the more efficient high BC bullets catch up and pass the lighter bullets in both velocity and wind deflection.

Remember - I said GENERALLY. One can always pick out specific comparisons that would make this premise seem incorrect. I am also talking about comparing apples to apples and am not comparing small varmint cartridges to voluminous biggame cartridges. There are obvious advantages to using magnum cartridges but there are also obvious disadvantages.

The most wind defying varmint cartridge that I ever hunted with was the 22-243AI using 75-80gr bullets at considerable speed.