Poll

1 shot stop king

44 magnum
16 (14.5%)
45 long colt
19 (17.3%)
38 special
0 (0%)
41 magnum
1 (0.9%)
40 smith/wesson
14 (12.7%)
380 automatic colt pistol
0 (0%)
357 magnum
37 (33.6%)
45 automatic colt pistol
22 (20%)
9 millimeter luger
1 (0.9%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Voting closed: July 04, 2003, 05:54:01 AM

Author Topic: whats the best 1 shop stopper?  (Read 3201 times)

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Offline Desperado357

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whats the best 1 shop stopper?
« on: July 04, 2003, 05:54:01 AM »
what do yall trust your lives with to drop em the quikest?

Offline Savage

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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2003, 04:05:03 PM »
Didn't we just do this? Foreverrrrrrr.
Stay Safe,
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline JeffG

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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2003, 03:48:33 PM »
Shot placement!  40 cal, Hydra shoks, 180 gr.  In the face... 8)
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff

Offline Savage

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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2003, 04:00:15 PM »
Ok, I'll beat this dead horse. Any caliber projectile in the cranial cavity.
Stay Safe,
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Robert

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None of the above
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2003, 05:13:03 PM »
12 Gauge
....make it count

Offline Cap'n Jon

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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2003, 03:58:08 PM »
:eek:
The .357 IMO, and voted to see it got the most @ 50+%  How do all, new to the forum...I'm A retired Fed LEO up here where the wolves howl. :D

Offline redial

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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2003, 04:15:31 PM »
Peestols are peestols, guys. None are great stoppers. In the training community it's popular to say that pistols exist only so you can fight your way back to your rifle. I'd concur.

Redial

Offline GP

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1 stop shot king
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2003, 09:37:39 AM »
Although I know that there are better alternatives than a hand gun cal. the question was only between those paticular hand gun cal.  The Remington 357 125gr simi jaceted hollow point has been rated as number 1  for one shot stops.  Both by Hatcher and also other studies.   I am quick to admit. I do not know this thru practical experiance. How ever the subject has always intrested me and I have read many articales and studies over the years, I am 65 now.  I forget the name of the ballistics expert that has been doing his study for the last number of years.  But in his study, only one shot stops get counted regardless of the cal. And the 125gr simi jacketed hollow point gets the checkered flag by a full lap.  Considering all I have read over the years I for one, belive it!

And yes, I know it's a horse thats been beat to death a thousand times. But it's still fun to talk about!

GP :D
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Offline NRAJOE

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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2003, 09:42:36 AM »
.45 ACP Glaser hollow points... :eek:  :excuseme:  :yeah:
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Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2003, 08:10:09 AM »
Glasers suck the do not pentrate well enough on heavy multiply layers of clothing and are lousy against auto glass, they might work well on soft tissue and t-shrits but not the big heavy clothing and i ahve seen this first hand on duty!

Offline KENTDEP

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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2003, 01:52:09 AM »
I have a hard time beliving that a .357 Mag would out do a .44 Mag. What is that information based on? I think that you would need to examine the rounds by testing them in 10% ballistic gel woundn't you?

Looking at case history of shooting incidents doesn't not cover it in my opinion. Example, "More people die from one shot from .357 mags then .44 mags." This is most likely true. How many people tote a .44 mag in their coat pocket?

Jay

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2003, 09:49:20 AM »
DEPUTY,

Quote
Glasers suck the do not pentrate well enough on heavy multiply layers of clothing and are lousy against auto glass, they might work well on soft tissue and t-shrits but not the big heavy clothing and i ahve seen this first hand on duty!


Me too!!!  For duty sidearm I carry a .40 S&W as required because that is what the rest of the officers are carrying but my personnel choice for off duty is my .45 auto.  In fact we are trying to get the local sheriff to change back to the .45 as the weapon of issue.  Lawdog
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline KENTDEP

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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2003, 12:05:22 PM »
Lawdog,

I would love to carry a .45acp on duty again. At my first cop job I could carry what ever I wanted (part time small dept). I carried a Colt 1911. While working that job I shot a lot of deer that had been wounded by cars. When I would shoot them in the head with Remington Golden Sabers (230 Grain) it was lights out. One shot lights out no exceptions. I probally shot 5-6 wounded deer a month. I never and I mean never had a deer struggle after I shot them.

I now work in a much larger department and I carry a Glock 22. I have shot deer 3 times in the head to put them down and they will still struggle, kick moan and groan. This has happened to me more than a few times over the years. Makes me sick! I would carry anything in .45 acp at this point.

The big hurtle is money. Guns, Leather and training time times about 300 officers in the case of my department.

Take care,

Jay

Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2003, 07:00:43 AM »
Quote from: KENTDEP
I have a hard time beliving that a .357 Mag would out do a .44 Mag. What is that information based on? I think that you would need to examine the rounds by testing them in 10% ballistic gel woundn't you?

Looking at case history of shooting incidents doesn't not cover it in my opinion. Example, "More people die from one shot from .357 mags then .44 mags." This is most likely true. How many people tote a .44 mag in their coat pocket?

Jay




It has to do with expansion.  A .44 Mag has a hard time dumping energy into the target, where as a .357, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, etc. all pretty much dump their energy into the torso of a grown man.  The .44 Mag is pretty inefficient in this department.  In the realm of handguns, the power levels are relatively close to each other compared with other weapons.  You see this quite a bit hunting medium to large game.  If you shoot a Whitetail deer with a 200 grn .300 Mag, More than likely it will run away for a greater length of time than if you shot a deer with a 150grn .308.  Most .300 Mag bullets were designed for bigger game, and the .308 will dump most of it's energy into the body of the deer.  The bigger is better game only works in the larger rifles.  A .50 BMG is big and powerful enough to tear a man's leg off even though it dumps very little of it's energy into the human body.  A 20mm will vaporize a man from the waist up when shot from the torso.  Both of these rounds are anti-material and anti-armor rounds, so they do not expand any in a human body.  A 240-320 slug at 1200 fps is not big or bad enough to do this, so it has to rely on expansion (and penetration in the bigger hardcast rounds).  Did any of this make sense, because I think I may have been rambling.  heh heh
Nosce Hostem
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Proud Freemason-Chugwater Lodge No. 23

Offline 4xdakota

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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2003, 08:09:59 PM »
If the .357 is the best 1 shot stopper why would it not be a good deer round?

Offline Savage

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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2003, 03:03:07 AM »
4xdakota,

Now, isn't that an intresting question? To put your question another way: If the 357 works so well on the average 170# man, why is it not adequate for an 80# deer??????? Could it be that we assign super attributes to the animals we hunt so that when we bring one down, it reflects highly on our manhood? These same attributes would obviously require a very powerful cartridge, right? Or-------, could it be that we want to use the most powerful thing available to make a humane kill on an animal?  I don't know, the ony deer I've ever shot with a handgun was with a 357. Thirty yards, behind the shoulder with a 125gr Super-Vel. He died as if lighting had struck him! Lucky I guess--------
Stay Safe,
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline KENTDEP

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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2003, 09:11:04 AM »
So let me get this right. Acording to one of the above posts, if I may, a perticular caliber may be better than another because of its ability to dump its energy.... So with that in mind my .380 acp would be better than my .357mag because my .357 may shoot all the way through my intended target? I think if you compare apples to apples and look at self defence ammo and you compare .357 mag and .44 mag hydro shock ammo for instance you will find that the .44mag will upset way more tissue on a ballistic test using ballistic gel as a test medium.


Jay

Offline TimWieneke

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1 shot?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2003, 09:56:30 AM »
What kind of an idiot shoots once in a defensive situation?  Revolvers have been around for what - almost 2 hundred years?  Two hundred years later and we haven't figured out that you shoot and keep shooting till the threat is no longer a threat?  You gonna carry a t/c for self defense?  Have fun....  

Shoot the biggest caliber you can carry and shoot comfortably, then learn to put multiple shots in the same spot, care for your firerarm, clear a jam quickly, and use cover - that's all you need to do.  The rest of this is armchair shootist, weekend warrior crap.  The anti-gun media uses the "shoot once" crap when we see a defensive shooting situation where the justified legal gun owner used 7 rounds to put down a coked-out perp - aren't we more educated on firearms than them?

Tim

Offline SAWgunner

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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2003, 02:54:03 PM »
Quote from: KENTDEP
So let me get this right. Acording to one of the above posts, if I may, a perticular caliber may be better than another because of its ability to dump its energy.... So with that in mind my .380 acp would be better than my .357mag because my .357 may shoot all the way through my intended target? I think if you compare apples to apples and look at self defence ammo and you compare .357 mag and .44 mag hydro shock ammo for instance you will find that the .44mag will upset way more tissue on a ballistic test using ballistic gel as a test medium.


Jay



No, your .380 would not be as good because it basically has the same bullet as your .357 magnum, with the .357 having higher velocity generating more damage and bullet upset than the .380.  Let's not jump the gun here.  With camparatively designed and built bullets, yes the .44 mag will have the same effect as a .357 magnum, but most bullets for the .44 are not designed to be man-stoppers.  Ballistics have a way of making people eat their words.  I have seen very few whitetail deer walk very far after being hit with a .30-30, but I have helped track a deer that ran for almost 3/4 of a mile after being shot with a .300 Win Mag with a Trophy bonded bear claw bullet.  Why is that?  The .300 Win Mag did not expand at all with that particular bullet.  Every round ever made has the potential to be a one-shot stopper.  If a man gets shot once and dies at the hospital, he has effectively been killed with one shot, which is not the idea behind the subject.  You want a bullet that will cause the most trauma.  A bullet that passes straight through a person has very little shock trauma.  This is just a matter of medical fact.  The .44 Magnum was never intended for use as a self defense round against humans, but the .357 Magnum was.  Give me a round that I know was meant to cause the most trauma in a human torso over a deer and black bear bullet any day of the week.  One does not care about over penetration in a hunting situation because it helps us track the target, I would rather all of my bullet's energy be dumped into a mans 12" thick torso so I can see where he falls, and I don't have to track him.
Nosce Hostem
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Offline 1GLOCK

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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2003, 07:55:07 AM »
PLACEMENT, PLACEMENT, PLACEMENT !!!
Nothing else matters.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2003, 09:18:35 AM »
It is much harder to kill a deer, bear, etc., than it is to kill a human.  The human body doesn't have the mussel or bone density that an animal has.  Of course there is always an exception to everything but generally people die easily.  Don't use game stoppers to stop people.  Lawdog
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline JohnClif

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Irrelevant question...
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2004, 09:17:34 PM »
Warning to the uninitiated: Zen-like post ahead.  Read and think about it carefully before replying that I'm wrong.

Many years (decades?) ago I used to ponder the same question.

After discussing the issue with some of the best trainers in the business, listening to their take on the subject, and considerable careful consideration, it became clear that the question is irrelevant.

That's right... irrelevant.  It doesn't matter.

In a defensive situation, any and every one of these cartridges will work, and any and every one will fail.  So, what is the difference between success and failure?

The shooter.  

If you put one bullet from a .22 LR derringer into the eye socket of your attacker, he is going down.  Every time.  Isn't that a one-shot stop?  If you whiz a 230gr Hydra-Shok over the left shoulder of your attacker because you are flinching, then how effective is that round?  Elephants have been killed with one shot from a .22 LR pistol, and bad guys have taken multiple hits in the torso from 12 ga slugs and kept on coming.  Believing that there is a magical combination of handgun/caliber/bullet that will result in one-shot stops will get you killed.

Besides... who on earth fires one shot if they're being attacked?  I don't know about you, but of the many things I might consider when someone is trying to kill me, conserving ammo isn't one of them!  If you are, then you need to get your head out of your posterior and get in the game before you get killed.  (That's why I hate terms like 'double tap' and 'hammer' and stupid drills like 'fire two and evaluate'... these drills are meant to develop proficiency in getting off multiple aimed shots quickly NOT as tactical advice, but too many instructors don't know or don't emphasize that.)  If I'm scared enough that my life is being threatened to pull a gun and shoot, I'm going to shoot and shoot and shoot until I am sure the threat no longer exists.  If the first shot somehow does the trick and the attacker is falling forward, I'm not going to stop and check his pulse... I'm going to keep on firing until it is abundantly clear that I am going home alive.  As the ammo companies say... "Shoot all you want, we'll make more!"

Seriously... every reputable defensive shooting expert teaches to shoot until the threat no longer exists.  Not until it might no longer exists.  Shoot as fast as you can score a good hit, and until you are sure the threat no longer exists.  

All defensive handgun choices are tradeoffs between concealability and controllability.  The reason that the midrange cartridges (.38 Special to .45 ACP) have become so popular for self-defense is because they offer adequate power with good controllability.  The .44 Magnum is more powerful but most of that power is wasted on the other side of your opponent, and a skilled pistolero can fire several shots from a 9mm before Dirty Harry can pull his piece out of recoil and touch off another.  Besides, Dirty Harry would have died in the first movie if his opponents could shoot.  Stick with a .38 Special, 9mm, .40 S&W, .44 Special, .357 Magnum, or .45 ACP in a quality handgun and you can't go wrong... IF you can hit with it.

So... the ultimate one-shot stopping power handgun/cartridge combo is the one you can quickly draw, fire, and score a hit where you want to.  For some, that is a .357 Magnum or .45 ACP.  For others that is a .38 Special 4" revolver.  If you can hit with it, quickly and repeatedly, then you will have all you can expect from a defensive handgun.

Offline Savage

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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2004, 04:39:43 AM »
Good post John. Allow me to throw in another variable. Given that in an attack launched at close range, all of your motor skills go to hell and you can't hit that eye socket with your 22. Maybe you're just shooting at form without aiming due to the proximity of the threat. Now. which caliber do you want? As for me, I'll wanta make a lot of big holes fast!
Savage
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Offline Bikenut

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Re: Irrelevant question...
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2004, 05:00:16 AM »
Quote from: JohnClif
So... the ultimate one-shot stopping power handgun/cartridge combo is the one you can quickly draw, fire, and score a hit where you want to.


Now this is what I appreciate. Real world insight and real world factual observation.

The statement above made by John is the ultimate truth. It covers the range from a BB gun to a howitzer. A BB in the eye is much better than a howitzer round over the head of the target. A howitzer on target is better than a BB in the eye. It all depends on the shooter getting either one "on target".

Naturally there is a middle ground between a BB and a howitzer. Just keep shooting larger caliber guns until you find one so big you aren't accurate with it... and go back to the one you are accurate with... regardless of the caliber.

This "one shot stop" stuff is an urban legend kept alive by movies that show the bad guy flying backwards 30 feet after having been shot once. All BULL!

So John... I agree with you most whole heartedly!
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Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2004, 01:40:20 PM »
Bikenut,

Quote
JohnClif wrote:
So... the ultimate one-shot stopping power handgun/cartridge combo is the one you can quickly draw, fire, and score a hit where you want to.


Anyone can learn to draw, fire and score a hit with any cartridge.  It just takes practice, practice, practice.  Some cartridges ARE better at stopping an armed felon than others.  I have seen cases where a .22 lr bullet in the head didn't not only not drop the guy the guy is still alive.  I have a friend and fellow officer that was shot in the head with a .25 auto at a range so close that the unburned powder was imbedded in his scalp and he is still alive today.  I have helped bury a few fellow officers that depended on a .38 sp. that the department issued them after they scope perfect body hits that didn’t stop the felon from returning fire and killing them(this has happened more times than you would believe).  DO NOT depend on just any cartridge working just because you scored a center chest hit.  It takes the right bullet too along with a good cartridge.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline tenzilla

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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2004, 02:10:37 PM »
Well...I`d like to have a futuristic SPAS-12/M209 grenade launcher combo if you really want my thoughts on the ideal one shot stop weapon. :-D    My thoughts on the "one shot stop" are identical to JohnClif`s.  Add Savage`s thoughts, and the theory is complete.   The thought of shooting once and hoping/expecting the threat to be over, goes against my personal golden rule of defensive shooting...SHOOT LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!!!  As John stated, conserving ammo isn`t, nor should it be, a viable option in a lifesaving gunfight.  Use the caliber and load you`re the most comfortable with, that functions 100% of the time, in a gun platform you can shoot well, and practice your butt off.  That way, if the crap ever hits the fan, and the resulting adrenaline spike degrades you back into your "inner monkey" level, hopefully you`ll shoot until the threat falls from your vision tunnel.(or if you`re lucky---sight picture).  This is just a guess on my part...but I doubt a gunfight survivor`s first thought is whether he fired once, or fired until slidelock/hammer click.   Massad Ayoob`s one video title says it all..."Shoot To Live". The one shot stop caliber/load topic is always a good one for discussion though.  My choice is either a .40 s&w or a 10mm with my favorite felon repellent loads.   8)   tenzilla
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Offline ihuntbucks

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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2004, 02:43:02 PM »
I'm torn between .357 and .44.....one shot,either one,but I would make sure there's 5 of their brothers right behind them :lol:   Rick                       ps: I like 12 gauge 0 buck also.........
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Offline JohnClif

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The caliber STILL doesn't matter...
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2004, 03:28:12 PM »
Quote from: Savage
Good post John. Allow me to throw in another variable. Given that in an attack launched at close range, all of your motor skills go to hell and you can't hit that eye socket with your 22. Maybe you're just shooting at form without aiming due to the proximity of the threat. Now. which caliber do you want? As for me, I'll wanta make a lot of big holes fast!


I'm not saying carry a .22 to the exclusion of everything else.  I'm saying that, even in your scenario it most likely still doesn't matter.  If you are in a situation where your opponent has closed to within contact range of you before you were aware of him, then you have screwed up tactically (or are just plain unlucky).  Hoping to save your bacon with a magic bullet is just that... hope.

There are four factors (not including luck, good or bad, probably the primary factor, but having the four factors below down pat will increase your luck) that will decide whether or not you survive a deadly assault, in decreasing order of importance:

• Situational Awareness

If you are oblivious to your surroundings, just walking around with your head in the clouds, then if someone wants you they're going to get you. If you have your head in the game and spot something hinky, then you can often avoid trouble.  Don't go into the convenience store if you can see the clerk holding up his hand through the window. Don't walk down that dark alley if you can see shadowy figures peering out from behind the dumpster (don't go down it anyway).

• Proper Tactics

Let's say that you find yourself in a threatening situation.  Perhaps you are in a parking garage and a street bum pops up a row over with a piece of rebar in hand asking for your wallet.  Put a car between you and him as quickly as possible, back away, and keep putting more cars between you and him (while keeping your head up and checking your six for his scummy partners).  Tactics can save your life without having to display or use a weapon.  Seeking cover at the first sign of trouble is a good tactic, and so is running away if it can be done safely. Another good tactic is not letting the person threatening you with deadly force know you're armed (with a gun, knife, briefcase, etc.) until you have used that weapon with surprise and accuracy in a sneaky counterattack.

• Skill With The Weapon(s) at Hand

Regardless of the weapon you have, if you can't employ it effectively then you might as well not have it. What good is the finest 1911 if you can't hit a barn from inside?  A street punk with rudimentary martial arts skills will close with you, take your empty gun away, and pistol-whip you with it.  If push comes to shove, you need to know how to shove and be able to perform under pressure.

• Choice of Weapon

Now we're down to the least important rung on the Survival Ladder.  If you have the other three attributes, then regardless of your weapon you will be able to employ it with maximum efficiency, surprising your opponent, and dealing a decisive disabling blow. If you have the time to choose, choose an effective weapon but don't worry about niggling paper differences between different defensive handgun calibers and bullets (Hydra-Shok or Gold Dot? .40 S&W or .45 ACP? Paperweight or ashtray?).  If you don't have the time to choose, then grab the nearest effective weapon (it might even be your fists, elbows, knees, feet, or head) and use it with maximal efficiency as above.  

So... in answer to your question, if all I had was a .22 pistol then I darn sure would make it count.  Maybe I wouldn't be able to stop the attacker if I emptied all 10 rounds from a Mark II into his chest at a few feet.  If he kept coming I'd thrust the barrel into his eye socket with all of my adreneline-supplemented strength. That ought to slow him down a little bit, and then I'd punch and kick him while he worried about what was sticking out of his face.  When I thought I could successfully run away, I'd do it... until then I'd pummel him until I could get away.

Offline Savage

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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2004, 03:02:05 AM »
John,
I wasn't taking issue with your points in your initial post. You are quite correct in your accessments. There is no caliber/bullet/gun combination that can be counted on to deliver one shot stops, period! I still subscribe to the school of big holes, all the way through. I'm familiar with all the "ninja tatical" jargon for what it's worth, the sitituational awareness, skill at arms, color codes, and all the other trendy phrases that get thrown around these days. This stuff is all good, but cannot take the place of the real life experience. The closest thing to it is "force on force" training. I would strongly recommend this type of training to anyone who carries a gun.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Redhawk1

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whats the best 1 shop stopper?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2004, 03:28:27 AM »
You left out my new CCW round in your poll. I have a 454 Casull in my new 454 Super Street Hawk. But I chose the 45ACP due to it is my most carried for CCW.  :D
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

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