whats the best 1 shop stopper?

[Savage]

Sounds like the 454 might meet my requirement of making a large hole all the way thru!! Might be a little bulky for "Thunder Wear"!!! :shock:
Savage

[Huk]

M18 CLAYMORE. :grin:


Huk

[papajohn428]

The accepted champ is the 357/125 for several reasons, as Marshall and Sanow have shown several times.  I generally agree with their criteria, i.e., not factoring in head shots, etc.  Their data was based on actual street shootings, not ballistic geletin.  While a 44 Special in the chest is probably nearly as good as anything else, the 357 hi-velocity loads bring one thing to the equation most others don't - hydrostatic shock.  Mas Ayood has talked about this phenomenon for many years, based on autopsy results.  Put your average 9mm/45/40/10mm (pick one) into the upper chest or shoulder of a bad guy, and he may or may not quit.  But a fast 357 in the same place has often put the bad guy down quickly, and fatally as well.  The 223 is good for the same reason.....the shock wave generated by the impact carries enough force to do things to tissue that slower bullets cannot.  I remember one case where the baddie took one just below the left collarbone.......and promptly fell down and died.  The initial supposition was that part of the bullet had severed the spinal cord, but the autopsy showed that the heart had been nearly blown apart by the impact.  Impacts near/into the liver have also shown similar results.  Less elastic tissue simply cannot withstand the force of the impact, and usually hemorrhages (sp?) causing a sudden and serious drop in blood pressure.  
I have never seen anything from Dr. Fackler, et al that can discount this evidence, despite his protestations that penetration is everything.  On a deer, give me a large hole, all the way through.  On a bad guy give me a light, very fast bullet in the chest, though I'll probably keep shooting just to be sure he stays down for good.  Sorry for the length of this response, but there IS a difference, and this is exactly why I carry a 357 with hot 125 grain hollowpoints!
BTW, I also own and carry 40S&W, 38Spl., 44Spl., and 45, but if the feces are headed for the rotating oscillator, I'll probably grab the 357 first.
PJ

[Swat Dude]

Actually, I thought I read somewhere where the high velocity .40 has now superseeded the .357 magnum as the number one shot stopper of all time according to Marshall. This may have to do with the fact that the .40 SW is the most selected caliber by law enforcement in the U.S. and gobs of data now exist on its real world abilities. For me personally, I got rid of my Glock .45 to carry a Glock .40SW because of the department issued .40 was a much better performing round than our issued .45. Now I carry Corbon Powerball in my Glock 22C. Feeds like ball, penetrates clothes like ball, stops like a +P+ hollowpoint.

[Swat Dude]

Check the 4-layer denim test.

http://www.ammolab.com/corbon_prb_40.htm

[Swat Dude]

Check out the expansion on your precious hydrashocks.

http://www.ammolab.com/9mm_section1.htm

Can you say FBI Ball Ammo fiasco in Florida??

[DEPUTY]

Fbi shootout was winchester silvertips, and some 38Q load (158 grain)
the 124-127 9mm +p+ has proven to be just as good as the 357 sig as well in actual street shootings, and actuallly bad tactics got them shot up, the silvertip round had actually pentrated the monte carlo car door his arm then into his chest cavity jsut stopping before hitting the heart, not the rounds fault  but bad tactics and planning

[leverfan]

Evan P. Marshall and Ed Sanow are not, IMHO, reliable sources of information.  A careful examination of their own claims quickly leads one to the conclusion that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to have checked out all the shootings that they claim to have checked, and many of their results and predictions border on the, well, unlikely.  The best one shot stopper is the one that hits CNS tissue, the closer to the brain, the better.  It's really a moot point, however, because:

1.  Most of the time, just showing a gun ends the threat.

2.  If that doesn't work, a single shot, even a miss, ends most other conflicts.

3.  If a determined, hyped-up individual wants to harm you, the only way to stop that person is by shutting down the brain.  You can do that quickest with a bullet right in the gray matter, or you can do it with blood loss that causes the brain to lose function.  Everything else is theory.

4.  If you don't achieve a good hit with enough penetration, it doesn't matter what you're shooting.  When the threat is determined and tough, and you miss, you are about to be on the bottom rung of the food chain.

That being said, I like a round that offers enough penetration and expansion to reach vitals and make big holes in them.  However, I'll settle for the lowly .32 ACP if that's all that I can find, because it will settle 99% of a civilian's fights just as well as a .45 ACP.  I'd rather have the .45, though, especially if I can shoot it better.  We'd all like to stack the deck in our favor in a life or death situation, but training counts for a hell of a lot more than what gun/caliber combo we pick.

[Dusty Miller]

Every time I see somebody post something about making a head shot I can't help but wonder if that person is living in a dream world!  Personal assaults typically occur very quickly and the victim has little time to draw a weapon, take careful aim, and blow the perps brains out.  That's why self-defense schools tell us to shoot  for the large body mass. Few of us take the time to peruse an area we are entering to look for suspicious people and nine times out of ten we'll get caught off guard.  Oh, only if I could pull it off like James Bond!!  But I can't, and I'll be lucky to get the gun out and pointed at the perp in time to make a shot that brings his attack to a halt.  Make a head shot?!  Get real!

[DEPUTY]

I MUST BE DREAMING!
More on the self-defense shooting that occurred on Troester on Detroit. The victim is glad to be alive, but she has natural feelings of remorse, etc. This appeared in today's Detroit Free Press.

Link to the Free Press story.

Text:

Intruder's killer: 'I had no choice'

Detroit woman tells of self-defense shooting
April 29, 2004

BY BEN SCHMITT
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Their eyes locked.

Then Barbara Holland saw the barrel of the gun.

She lay on the floorin her house after an intruder had knocked her down while pushing through her side door. While on her back, she drew a 9mm handgun from a holster on her waist.

Her assailant's glare suddenly changed.

"He looked surprised," Holland said.

Then she pulled the trigger.

Holland, a 38-year-old Detroit business owner and mother, remembers firing three shots. Detroit police told her she fired six.

Either way, she killed the 42-year-old man, Clabe Hunt -- who had shoved intoher home on Troester, near Hayes, on Detroit's east side at 8:10 p.m. April 13.

He was an ex-con with five children and was armed with a loaded, nickel-plated semiautomatic handgun that was not registered to him. Autopsy reports indicate he was shot in the head multiple times. He never fired his weapon.

[DEPUTY]

Thats as real as it gets, up close and fast

[Swat Dude]

Every time I see somebody post something about making a head shot I can't help but wonder if that person is living in a dream world!  Personal assaults typically occur very quickly and the victim has little time to draw a weapon, take careful aim, and blow the perps brains out.  That's why self-defense schools tell us to shoot  for the large body mass. Few of us take the time to peruse an area we are entering to look for suspicious people and nine times out of ten we'll get caught off guard.  Oh, only if I could pull it off like James Bond!!  But I can't, and I'll be lucky to get the gun out and pointed at the perp in time to make a shot that brings his attack to a halt.  Make a head shot?!  Get real!

I agree. You have the best chance in a stress situation of placing your shots center mass. Some of the most effective wounds are to be gained from shattering the sternum, sending bone fragments into the heart and lungs.

[Lawdog]

Close quarter combat boils down to one word, STOP.  Make the other person stop shooting, stop fighting, stop doing, etc.  Getting them to stop as quickly as possible is the object.  My officers and I used to carry .40 S&W Glocks because that is what the other law enforcement departments in our area issued.  I have now started to issue my personnel M21 Glocks.  I believe the .45 ACP is better when it comes to stopping power.  Lawdog
 

[leverfan]

Every time I see somebody post something about making a head shot I can't help but wonder if that person is living in a dream world!  Personal assaults typically occur very quickly and the victim has little time to draw a weapon, take careful aim, and blow the perps brains out.  That's why self-defense schools tell us to shoot  for the large body mass. Few of us take the time to peruse an area we are entering to look for suspicious people and nine times out of ten we'll get caught off guard.  Oh, only if I could pull it off like James Bond!!  But I can't, and I'll be lucky to get the gun out and pointed at the perp in time to make a shot that brings his attack to a halt.  Make a head shot?!  Get real!

If you're referring to my post, you missed my point entirely.  I was not advocating head shots over center mass shots.  My point was that a solid head shot is the only true, instant, one shot stop, and even then, you need to take out precise portions of the brain to insure an instant stop.  In other words, all this one shot stop debate is darn near a waste of time.  The only sure way to get a one shot stop on a determined opponent is to pull off a near impossible shot under stress.  Also, I was pointing out that it is very unlikely that Joe or Jane Average is going to need to make a one shot stop on a determined attacker.  You're far more likely to simply scare off an opportunistic coward, rather than duel a fearless killer.  I'm sorry if my main points weren't clearer.

Having said all that, the last time I shot in self defense, it was at a feral dog.  It was stopped with a double tap to the head at a range of 5 feet.  Had the dog been shooting back, my aim may have been even more effected by stress, but the shot can be made.  I practice center mass when target shooting, however.  That's because I believe in training the way that I expect to fight.

[Swat Dude]

Close quarter combat boils down to one word, STOP.  Make the other person stop shooting, stop fighting, stop doing, etc.  Getting them to stop as quickly as possible is the object.  My officers and I used to carry .40 S&W Glocks because that is what the other law enforcement departments in our area issued.  I have now started to issue my personnel M21 Glocks.  I believe the .45 ACP is better when it comes to stopping power.  Lawdog
 

I think that depends on your .40 or .45 ammo. I still believe higher energy rounds, when properly placed, will do more damage. Check out my links above and you will see that a properly loaded .40 HP will expand to much bigger than a .45 that lacks muzzle velocity.

[Lawdog]

Swat Dude,

You are right about the load being used.  All my people are now carrying CCI/Speer, .45 ACP +P, 200 grain Gold Dot Hollow Points traveling at 1,080 fps..  They work flawlessly in the Glocks we are now using.  They also pack one heck of a punch.  While the .40 S&W is a good cartridge and is much better(in my opinion) than the 9mm, I have more faith in the .45 caliber for stopping.  And like I said it all comes down to STOPPING.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[usmcSOA]

ALL GUNS CAN KILL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!  Espically a beretta 96fs with trijion sights and a nice little hollow point at the end of the bullet.  now.............. DROP THE ISSUE!

[DEPUTY]

That, was pretty cocky, we will drop the issue when we decide too, not when you say too, you have been put on notice, as there are many here with 200X's the skill and knowledge  that you think you have!  

So relaxe and enjoy!  we like a good heated debate and when it has run is course it will be delt with!

[usmcSOA]

I was not trying to be cocky.  I know that I am new to this website.  Why would I want to be cocky?  And, what is being on notice?  What does being on notice mean?  Sorry if i offended you some way dude.  Ever heard of taking a joke?  I dont want this debate to stop.  I just putting out my 4 cents.  Or, its probably more like 1 cent to you.   :wink: