Author Topic: 445 Supermag lever action conversion HELP!!!!!!!!!!! (Read 2914 times)

RollTide · « **on:** July 05, 2003, 06:22:23 AM »

I want a 445 Supermag lever action as a companion for my Dan Wesson revolver. After putting my best efforts into figuring out the best and least expensive way to accomplish this. Here is what I have come up with. I am not a gunsmith, so if this is totally stupid for some reason, you guys take it easy on me.

1.   Buy a Marlin 444 Outfitter.
A.   I like Marlin lever actions
B.   They have a 1:20" twist rate for the heavy bullets
C.   I like the short, ported rifles. (I have one in 45/70 and one in 44mag

2.   Have a competent gunsmith cut 1.65" off
the threaded end of the barrel. At this point in the 444 chamber it is about the same diameter as the head size of the 445 Supermag.
3.   Have the gunsmith rethread the barrel to fit back into the receiver and rechamber it for the 445 Supermag round.
4.   Have the gunsmith refit the barrel to the action and reattach the mag tube to the shortened barrel.

There should be no reason for altering the internal mechanism since the 445 Supermag has the same rim diameter and is ½" shorter than the 444 Marlin. I also hope that 44 Mag and 44 Spcl rounds will cycle reliably in the action.

Questions for the guys here:
1.   Is there some reason that this idea is impossible or even impractical?
2.   Are there any suggestions about how to do this conversion better or easier or cheaper?
3.   About how many hours work are we talking about for the gunsmith and what is a fair price for the work?
4. Is this something a competent local gunsmith can do or is it something that must be done by one of the high dollar lever action gurus?

Any help and ALL OPINIONS pro and con would be appreciated.

Thank you kindly,

Roll Tide

Chuck from arkansaw · « **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2003, 03:28:34 PM »

Easiest way would be find a .44 mag 336. Ream chamber and perhaps fit .444 cartridge stop etc.

RollTide · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2003, 04:33:35 PM »

Thanks for your reply. That sounds perfect except the Marlin 44 Mag barrels are 1:38" twist. That will not stabilize the heavier bullets (330gr) that I plan to fire in the 445 Supermag. Thanks for your reply though. You must know a lot about Marlins to have remembered that they made the 336 in 44 Mag.

Roll Tide

gunnut69 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2003, 06:52:18 PM »

There may be a bit of work refitting the magazine loops, doable but troublesome. Is the sole reason for this exercise to fire the same ammo in the revolver and rifle? Otherwise it would seem the 444 variant of the GuideGun flavor would do nicely. It's late and I'm lazy but would the round feed thru an unaltered 444 Marlin? If so, and I bet it would, setting back the barrel and cleaning up the chamber would work just fine. What's the standard pressure for the 445 SuperMag? How much does it exceed the 444? You might try the reamer database at Clymer for specifications for both rounds... good luck!!

RollTide · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2003, 09:24:56 PM »

gunnut69,
I think I could refit the magazine bands myself. I think it would be one of those really time consuming things that a real gunsmith would not particularly relish and would charge accordingly. The barrel refit is where I really need a professional. Do you think a good local gunsmith could handle that?

The purposes of the exercise are:

1. To have a handgun rifle combo stronger than the 44 Mag.
2. To have a rifle that will shoot a Supermag round, a Magnum round and a Special round.
3. To have a combo that utilizes a Dan Wesson gun so that the versatility of their multi-barrel system can be used, and their phenominal accuracy can be put to use.

The first 2 would be served to a great degree by a 454 Casull combo. Although the 454 won't actually shoot a special round, the factory 45 LC is close, and to shoot a Magnum level 45colt you have to handload them. I primarily want the Supermag round for dangerous game protection, but the full bore 454 is just too powerful to control for follow-up shots in the protection role and therefore might as well be a single shot. The 454 is also too powerful to fire one handed if injured. The pressures of the 454 are just too high for comfort for me. I am not sure, but I think the pressure rating for the 445 Supermag are the same as the 44 Mag (although both the Dan Wesson Supermag revolver and the Marlin 336 lever action will stand considerably more pressure). So I think everything will be fine from a pressure standpoint. To have a combo that will shoot 3 rounds(445SM,44MG,44SP), 2 of which are found everywhere and a 3rd Supermag round that should do in a pinch even against grizzly (although that role is better reserved for a hot 45/70 round) is just too good an idea to pass up for me. According to Garrett, his hot 44 Mag round will penetrate to the hips of a frontally shot grizzly FROM A PISTOL. The Supermag squeezes about 200-300 fps more from the pistol than a 44 Mag and even a carbine length barrel in a rifle will squeeze another 200 FPS out of the round. With this great increase in power, I believe the 445 Supermag in a rifle would give full penetration on a frontally shot grizzly, although a 444 or a 45/70 would actually do better for the really big bears.

In the end, it is just one of those things I've got to do, even though I already have a 45/70 GG and a 1894P in 44 Mag. The 444 Marlin would essentially duplicate the 45/70 in power. The 445 Supermag will truly fill the niche between the 44 Mag and the 45/70. It will do all that the 44 will do (even firing the 44 rounds) and will reach to the mid range of what the 45/70 will do.

I've gotta try it!!!!!

Thanks for your comments and your expert advice.

Roll Tide

gunnut69 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2003, 04:27:24 PM »

Sorry, I was a bit pooped last night and as usual didn't think before I typed. What I was wandering was would the 444 as is feed the 445 (44Sp/44Mag?)?? If it would the 44 Sp would really have some freebore but you could claim use from 4 different rounds. The Clymer websight has a database of reamer dimensions, perhaps that could tell us something. I don't really know if the Marlin would feed those short rounds well. There may be magazine cutoff (shell stop) problems(double feeding?). It would be an interesting combo. The 444 loaded with heavy for caliber hard cast bullets would have a higher balistic coeffiecient than the 350-405 grain 45/70 bullets. This usually indicates penetration, all else being equal of course. As to whether a local smith could handle it, that is impossible for me to say. I know some very competent people who do not have the 'name' and conversely I know folks who are supposed to be the best who farm out their machine work. The Marlin isn't the easiest to rebarrel but straight rimmed cases are some of the easiest to work with. A competant smith shouldn't have a lot of trouble.

I checked with 'Firefly Arms' cartridge drawing database and there are a few differences. The 445 has a bit smaller rim (about .006) and the base diameters of the 4 cases are somewhat different. The 445 is again the smallest at .45 while the 44 mag is .457 and the 444 is .469. I don't know that .014 would be especially dangerous but an email to Clymer Reamers would be a good idea before going forward... Good luck with the project..and keep us apprised with your results..

RollTide · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2003, 05:31:22 PM »

Gunnut69,
Thanks for all the info. Do you have the web addresses for the site you mentioned? I do not have a 444 (yet) to experiment with, but I feel reasonably sure the 445 and the 44 mag and the 44 spcl will feed OK. I would not fire anything except 444 in an unaltered 444 chamber because even if it did not split the case, it would ruin it for reloading and using in a 445 pistol. The 445 brass is a little expensive, so the chamber must be much closer than .019.

I think the 445 in a rifle will be real close to the 444 anyway, within 10%.

As for the gunsmith. I guess I will check around and see what kind of response I get. Maybe I will get you to send me some gunsmith contacts if nothing works out locally.

Now to find myself a 444 Marlin and get started.

RollTide · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2003, 03:29:21 PM »

Well, I have purchased a 444P (the last one in town) and have located a 445 reamer. I am now looking for a gunsmith to do the work.

Does anyone know a good gunsmith to recommend?

Roll Tide

gunnut69 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2003, 06:31:00 PM »

FireFly Arms is at- http://www.fireflyarms.com/
Then cartridge database is at the bottom of the left side of the page..
Clymer is at--- http://www.clymertool.com/price/
The reamer specs are listed under the heading 'reamer design'. Remember these are specs for reamers and are not the exact specs for a chamber or a cartridge..Tolerances!!
I know several good smiths but I'd check local smiths first if for no other reason than they are close.. If you wish I'll post some addresses for guys I trust... but you'll have to mail that little jewel,,shuddder,,, I've had really bad luck lately and wouldn't mail anything to anybody right now!!!

RollTide · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2003, 04:57:28 AM »

Gunnut69,
Thanks again for the info. I got to the firefly.com information, but I could not get the clymer "reamer design" page to load with netscape nor with MS explorer.

I found a local (1.5 hours away) gunsmith with a great reputation. I priced many gunsmiths nationwide. Some were simply not interested or not capable and others were very interested and offered special prices and turn around time. I decided on the local guy because he has a great reputation, lots of experience, seemed very comfortable with the work I wanted done, and I won't have to send the rifle out of state and worry about theft or damage during shipping. Wild West Guns in Alaska said it was about a half day's work to cut the barrel, rethread, rechamber, reinstall and headspace

I am in the process of making and installing the new cartridge stop and making sure that the rifle feeds the supermags before I have the barrel cut. It feeds 44 mags just fine in the unaltered condition as long as you just put ONE in the mag tube. With the 44 mag and the 44 special you essentially have a double rifle since you can only have one in the chamber and one in the mag, otherwise the short cartridges try to double feed. One really nice part about doing the conversion from a longer to shorter cartridge, is that if I ever want to return the rifle to a 444, all I have to is remove the cartridge stop and reinstall a factory 444 barrel.

I had to go down to Harbor Freight and buy a cross vise yesterday to use drilling the carrier part. We are getting closer here. Over on another forum, one writer mentioned that he has a 357 Maximum (Supermag) in a 21" Contender. He says that the 357 Max will basically equal FACTORY 35 Rem. rounds, but that the 357 Max is still about 10% shy of what a 35 Rem can be handloaded to. I hope I can do that well with my 445 Supermag rifle compared to the standard 444 loads.

I'll continue to keep you posted.

Roll Tide

gunnut69 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2003, 08:37:08 PM »

Thanks for the update and keep us posted.. I'm especially interested in the velocity advantage the rifle should provide over the shorter barreled pistol.. Anyway,, good luck!!

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2003, 06:44:30 AM »

Yes please keep us informed. I want one too but since your testing the waters first....

Good luck!

RollTide · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2003, 04:51:51 AM »

Success!!!!!!

I got all the feeding modifications worked out. It will feed round after round of 445 Supermag smooth as butter. If I cut another dovetail so that I can leave the mag tube the same length, I will have a 17" barrel rifle that I can load 5 rounds in the mag tube and one in the chamber. Then I will have another 6 shooter in addition to my Dan Wesson in 445 Supermag.

Well, I'm off to the the gunsmith.

Roll Tide

jhm · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2003, 05:19:14 AM »

Rolltide: Unless marlin has changed their rate of twist the sierra reloading manual is showing 1-38 for the 444 in the model 444t marlin dont know if it is going to be different in the model 36

JIM

RollTide · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2003, 05:17:03 PM »

Jim,
Your book is right, and wrong. The older microgroove barrels did have the 1:38" twist rate. When they went back to ballard rifling in recent years, they went to 1:20" twist in the 444. However, they kept the 1:38" twist rate in the 44 Mag barrels. Go figure?!? I am glad they went to the 1:20" rate because it stabilizes the bullets over 300gr much better. I appreciate the comment though. It never hurts to double check. I am very anxious to get the gun back from the gunsmith. I am VERY satsfied with the feeding reliability. The carrier was the only part that needed adjusting, but it took more than just adding a cartridge stop. It had to be reshaped in a couple of areas. I tried a block of aluminum first, but was not really satified with it. Next I used a 1/4" steel "key". It worked much better even though it was a little harder to drill and fit. I found that angles and fit on the cartridge stop must be fairly precise in order for it to function properly. Small amounts of metal less that 1/64" can make all the difference as to whethter the new block works or doesn't. A cross vice and a drill press were essential for drilling the block and carrier exactly. I tried it first with just a drill press and standard drill press vice with less than satisfactory results.

Roll Tide

RollTide · « **Reply #15 on:** September 04, 2003, 05:31:23 AM »

I finally got all the work done on my Marlin 445 Supermag conversion. It is great!! I left the mag length the same and just cut an extra dovetail in the barrel. It is now a 445 Supermag (as engraved on the barrel) with a 17" barrel and a 6 round magazine. It fires 44 Specials and 44 Mags if loaded with one in the chamber and one in the mag tube. So it is effectively a double rifle in those calibers. It is the perfect compliment to my Dan Wesson 445 Supermag revolver (in either the 4" or 6" or 8" barrel options) which also fires the 44 Special and 44 Mag rounds (including all Garretts 44 Mag loads.) It also makes a nice companion to my 16 1/2" 1894P in 44 Mag, and my 18 1/2" 45/70 Guide Gun. I am a happy camper. Life is good. I think if I were limited to one lever action and one revolver, it would be the Marlin and Dan Wesson combo in 445 Supermag.

Next comes load developement. I also intend to fire lap the barrel using the Beartooth Bullets kit. I found the following load data in an old post on another forum. It is supposed to be max loads this guy actually chrono'd in his own 14" 445 Supermag Contender.

180gr JHC Sierra - 35.4 of 296 vel -2038
42 of 1680 vel -2134
36 of H110 vel- 2045

200gr xtp 39.6 of Win 680 vel-2040
34.4 of 296 vel-2022
35 of H110 vel-2047

240gr JHC Sierra 37.3 of Win 680 vel-1976
33.2 of296 vel-1958
32 of H110 vel-1855

300 XTP 34.6 of Win 680 vel-1756
30.7 of296 vel-1732
29 of H110 vel-1591

320 LBT hard cast 34 of Win 680 vel-1838

I HAVE NOT TRIED ANY OF THESE LOADS YET AND THEY SHOULD ALL BE REDUCED AND WORKED UP CAREFULLY TO VERIFY SAFETY.

Based on this data, I believe I should get well over 2000fps out of a jacketed 240gr bullet and well over 1900fps out of a 320gr hardcast bullet in the 17" barrel. This is about 10% less than factory 444 loads in a short barrel gun. I am satified with that. I will also be experimenting with 405gr hardcast loads for really big critters. I should get over 1600fps out of the 405gr load. That should cleanly kill anything in North America in a hunting situation and should do in a pinch for dangerous game protection as long as the shooter does their part (even so I would rather have a hot 550gr 45/70 if I were charged by a really big bear or a howitzer.)

I did all the internal work myself and paid a gunsmith to set-back the barrel 1.416" and rechamber to 445 Supermag. 2 new dovetails also had to be cut in the bottom of the barrel for attaching the forearm and mag tube since the barrel was cut from the threaded end. The acid test will be how it shoots once I get some loads worked up. I think I will order some factory 445 Supermag loads from Dan Wesson and see how the perform in the carbine. I need to get a chronograph so I can document the performance.

I will try to post some pics when I get them taken.

Roll Tide

gunnut69 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 04, 2003, 01:13:40 PM »

Thanks for getting back to let us know how it went. Sounds like a success>> I would love to see those pictures...

unspellable · « **Reply #17 on:** December 01, 2005, 11:52:29 AM »

I am interested in putting the 445 in a Winchester 1894, starting with one chambered for 44 Mag.

The 44 mag has a case length of 1.290, the 445 hase a case length of 1.610, all other dimensions are identical. The nominal max pressures are identical. (People are in the habit of hot rodding the 445 a bit because the DW revolver will put up with it.)

Any thoughts on this? Other than given the weight and stock design it might kick?

gunnut69 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 01, 2005, 08:02:52 PM »

The winchester in it's normal form probably isn't as strong as the marlin but should handle those pressures OK. What's the twist rate in the Winchester barrels in 44mag?

unspellable · « **Reply #19 on:** December 02, 2005, 02:26:06 AM »

If I didn't convert an 1894 to the 445 SuperMag I'd probably convert it to the 357-44 B&D.