Author Topic: 338 federal  (Read 5565 times)

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Offline Country Boy

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2008, 08:28:27 AM »
 Honestly guys how many of us can afford a big bear hunt and how many times ? The .338 federal seems like it would do ok black bear but so does my .358 win. If I had 15,000 to spend on a costal griz hunt. I would pack a .375. How many times are you going to get to hunt them ? The Alaska fish and game want's you or your hunting companion to carry a .375 for the big boys.

Offline jro45

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2008, 03:26:02 AM »
Whats the top fps with the 338 federal  I have the ULTRA in 338 Remington And top fps is with the 250 gr bullet Nosler Pertition is 2975 FPS with the SERRIA 250 The fps is 3015

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2008, 02:19:36 AM »
Whats the top fps with the 338 federal  I have the ULTRA in 338 Remington And top fps is with the 250 gr bullet Nosler Pertition is 2975 FPS with the SERRIA 250 The fps is 3015

It looks like 2300fps with a 250g bullet will be about the top for the .338 Federal.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2008, 03:18:42 AM »
Drilling Man -

So far I haven’t seen a 300g bullet for a .338 cartridge, nor any load data for a bullet that heavy.  The 275g bullets are almost as scarce – Swift is the only company I know that makes one and reloading data is hard to come by as well.  I don’t have a Swift manual and have to reach back to my Speer #10 to get any data for their discontinued 275g bullet. 

The 250g velocities I was using were 2500fps for the .338-06 (A-Square) and 2300fps for the .338 Federal (Hodgdon data @ 2278fps but below max pressure).  Accurate lists a 250g load at 2390fps in the .358 Win, so 2300 fps for the .338 Federal is close enough.  Exact numbers will vary with individual rifles of course, but given the same bullet a difference of 200fps is best described as marginal.

Sorry, but fpe is NOT just a number on paper.  It is a very real measure of the maximum amount of work that can be done – in this case the destruction of tissue and bullet deformation.  You have found a combination of bullet weight, construction and velocity that works for you and that’s fine, but there are other combinations that will work as well and can take advantage of additional energy.  If penetration was a goal in itself we would all be using pointed solids.  That does not change that the .338-06 is a rather minor step up from the .338 Federal, however, just as the .30-06 is a minor step up from the .308 Win and the .35 Whelen is a minor step up from the .358 Winchester. 

The .338 Federal versus .338-06 for DG is a moot question as far as I’m concerned.  Yes, I would prefer it but the advantage is still marginal at best.  If I had to use the absolute heaviest bullets available in a cartridge to feel comfortable it could do the job, I’d get a larger cartridge - in this case a .375 or .416 or .45.  Going with a .338-06 instead of a .338 Federal is kind of like going from snow tires to snow tires with a more aggressive tread.  When my life is on the line I’ll chain up all 4 wheels instead.

  I understand where your coming from...  I'm a long time re loader, so i also have the books to check load data...

  I also have some 300 grain .338 bullets around, and load data for them.  I'd have to dig it up though, as i haven't had a need to use it in many years.

  You may be surprised to find out that just because you move up to a 375 or even a 458 for DG you STILL have to use the heaviest bullets to get decent penetration.  I've seen more than one Barnes 400 grain .458 bullets stop in on the far side of a big bear.  I saw a guy on TV shoot a big lion with a .458 Win. mag., loaded with 500 grain softs and the bullet didn't exit the lion on a rakeing rib cage shot.  My buddy had the same results with a big boar brown bear on the same shot.

  I choose to use a lower recoiling cartridge (that i shoot much better) that penetrates just as well, and STILL expands.  I've "always" said you need a bullet that "expands well", and dives in deep for good penetration.  No solids for me on browns...

  When it comes to breaking a big bear down, FPE doesn't mean sh** if you can't drive the bullet in deep through heavy bone, and that's why i use the heavy bullets in .338 cal...

  The problem with the Federal is, it's in a short action, that won't allow heavy bullets and the 308 case...  Stick it in a long action, and it evens out more....but if you use a long action, may as well take advantage of the 06 case then...

  Trust me, i considered all of this back in the 70's when i built my first .338-06.

  DM

Drilling Man –

I have no doubt you are getting excellent penetration with the .338-06 and the Speer 275g bullets but my experience tells me that the reason for that penetration is the relatively low velocity with relatively slow expansion.

I performed a number of penetration tests with my .45-70 and my results mirrored that of others, showing that additional velocity is often detrimental to penetration. Here are some of my results showing the number of water jugs penetrated and the load:

Code: [Select]
Jugs  Velocity  Load
12+   1167fps   .45-70, 300g Oregon Trail LaserCast (exited last jug and buried itself in earthen berm)
 9+   1554fps   .45-70, 500g Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid (exited side of 9th jug)
 9    1812fps   .45-70, 460g Cast Performance WFNGC
 8    2147fps   .45-70, 350g Speer FP
 7    3100fps   .300 Win Mag, 180g Barnes MRX
 6    2189fps   .45-70, 350g North Fork
 6    2247fps   .45-70, 300g Speer Uni-Cor
 5    2230fps   .375 Win, 220g Hornady FP
 4    2390fps   .375 win, 200g Sierra FP

Here’s what Randy Garrett has to say on velocity and penetration with regard to non-expanding bullets:

[url]http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9085[url]
Quote



“There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. …

… these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. ...

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

Randy Garrett
www.GarrettCartridges.com

Something that Randy touches on is that the slower bullets carry less kinetic energy.  In my testing the difference has been dramatic.  For test purposes I set up two plastic Black & Decker sawhorses and placed a 14” wide strip of 3/8” plywood on top.  A somewhat shorter strip of plywood was placed on top of the first and centered front-to-back.  This arrangement meant the  lead jug was supported by only the bottom piece of plywood.  I then placed water-filled 1-gallon milk jugs and “Family size” orange juice jugs front-to-back on the plywood platform.

The load which produced the most penetration (12 jugs, 330g .458” hardcast  @ 1167fps) also produced the least amount of damage.  Many of the jugs remained in place with only a couple holes where water was leaking out.  In fact, we repeated this test several times and the results were very consistent.  We had fun shooting the survivors.

The scenario with the high velocity projectiles was very different and far more destructive.  Typical results included explosively blowing up most of the penetrated  jugs, blowing a hole in the single layer of supporting plywood under the lead jug, and destroying the top crossmember of the leading sawhorse.  We ended up replacing the sawhorse’s plastic crossmember with a 2x2 and that kept getting destroyed as well.

Again, the point is that penetration is only one aspect of performance.  You apparently are getting satisfactory results with the .338-06 on big bears but I still contend that the difference is marginal over what the .338 Federal is capable of.  In fact, it may well be that with the same bullets the slower .338 Federal would produce even greater penetration.

Thanks, but I’ll take a balance of penetration and destructive energy when my life is on the line.  Stepping up from a .338 Federal to a .338-06 (is there any SMALLER step even available?) just isn't going to provide the extra edge I'd be looking for.






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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2008, 04:44:10 AM »
Quote
Again, the point is that penetration is only one aspect of performance.  You apparently are getting satisfactory results with the .338-06 on big bears but I still contend that the difference is marginal over what the .338 Federal is capable of.  In fact, it may well be that with the same bullets the slower .338 Federal would produce even greater penetration.

Thanks, but I’ll take a balance of penetration and destructive energy when my life is on the line.  Stepping up from a .338 Federal to a .338-06 (is there any SMALLER step even available?) just isn't going to provide the extra edge I'd be looking for.

  I think the point your missing is, when your trying to break a big bear down, it takes bone crushing penetration from an expanding bullet, not bullets blowing up and expending there energy.  DG is what i'm talking about, not a deer or a caribou that energy has a greater effect on...  If you don't get "enough" penetration, the energy won't mean a thing...  I take it you have never harvested a brown bear?  After you track a couple wounded ones down for someone else, you start to get an idea of what works to put them down...

  I use to be a bullet mfg, and i have tried all of those bullets at higher and lower velocities.  I myself have done many of the test people are quoteing, many years ago...

  The problem with cast bullets is, you left out the needed "expanding" part...  I started casting bullets in the 60's, so yes i have tested many of those too...  BUT, the next time i want to kill a water jug or some charging plywood i'll give them another try. lol

  I also know that as you speed a bullet up it expands faster...  That's why you choose "wisely", and in this case choose a heavier bullet so the S.D. helps you out...  I've fired 275 Speers out of a 338 Win. Mag., and also out of a 340 wby. too...  The Speers are tough enough to take higher velocities than the 338-06 gives, but i didn't need it for my purpose, and for other reasons i choose to go with the least velocity that would get the job done...

  I've saw this time and time again over the 25 years of using 338's in Alaska... on real live animals.  If i had to constantly quote someone elses test all the time, i wouldn't be so confident in my answers, but i don't.

  To repeat myself, put the federal in a long action, and seat those "long" bullets out, and you will get close to 06 velocities...

  Here's one of many animials that i tested bullets on, for DG.  This Moose was running flat out from my right to my left slightly quartering away at 150 yards.  I fired off hand, hitting him foreward in the shoulder with a 250 Gran Slam.  He didn't even flinch, and i fired a second time as he ran away into the grass.  It took about an hour to find him in there...  The second bullet hit 2" from the first one, and both bullets broke up on bone, "with out" going through to the hide, let alone exiting.



  Not too impressive...  I believe it was that moose that put me on the path to the 275 Speers...


  DM

Offline deltecs

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2008, 05:15:16 AM »
Woodleigh also makes 300 gr in .338, both solids and expanding.  They are available.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2008, 02:13:38 PM »
Drilling Man -

I’m not talking about bullets that blow up – don’t use them on deer or elk and wouldn’t think of using them on DG.  My preference is and would be bullets that expand but have the mechanical means of limiting expansion – such as the A-Frame, Trophy Bonded, and TSX.

Never harvested a bear of any kind, let alone a brown.  I’m a big believer in adequate penetration but I also believe the bullet has to do a lot of damage along the way – otherwise we’d all be using pointed solids as I mentioned before.  In other words, a good balance of penetration AND energy transfer.  What you’re selling is that there are no other cartridges out there that are as – or more - effective as the .338-06.  Having seen what a .338-06 and larger cartridges can do to elk, I’m not buying any – match the bullet to the task and the larger cartridges can provide plenty of penetration and destruction.

I mention the tests using hardcast but my tests also included expanding bullets.  Randy Garrett makes a living selling DG loads and his customers swear by them.  You may not care for them but Garrett loads for the .45-70 have taken the Big Seven in Africa.  Push come to shove, I ‘d prefer my .45-70 with 460g WFNGC hardcast running 1812fps to a .338-06 pushing 275g Speers at 2300-2400fps even though the energy is comparable.  Such loads have not only killed Cape Buffalo, they have exited and killed a second Cape Buffalo – and exited the second animal as well.   

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Offline deltecs

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2008, 07:54:47 PM »
That is not what he is selling by discussing the differences between the .338 Fed and .338-06.  What he is saying is that with heavier bullets which expand in tissue more than possibly derived from the design of .338 Fed.  With the Fed short action length and limits on overall cartridge length, he thinks that the game shot with heavier bullets to more effective.  Those bullets in the .338 Fed must be seated so far into the powder column as to be not nearly as effective as the .338-06, with its neck length holding those bullets without a substantial reduction in energy.  I must agree. 
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2008, 04:37:04 AM »
That is not what he is selling by discussing the differences between the .338 Fed and .338-06.  What he is saying is that with heavier bullets which expand in tissue more than possibly derived from the design of .338 Fed.  With the Fed short action length and limits on overall cartridge length, he thinks that the game shot with heavier bullets to more effective.  Those bullets in the .338 Fed must be seated so far into the powder column as to be not nearly as effective as the .338-06, with its neck length holding those bullets without a substantial reduction in energy.  I must agree. 

Deltecs –

My contention was that the .338-06 was a relatively minor step up from the .338 Federal and that the .338-06 would not be my choice of cartridge if my life was on the line and the .338 Federal was inadequate.  Drilling man has been arguing to the contrary and points out failures of .375 and .458 cartridges, ignoring the many times such cartridges have worked.  I’m sure people have experienced less than desired results with a .338-06 as well.

We won’t know what a .308 Federal can do with a 275g Speer until someone actually loads some up and fires them over a chrono.  My guess is 2100-2200fps (Federal claims 2630 for the 210g Partition bullet).  My guess is you could hit 2300-2400fps with a 250g TSX fairly easily.  In either case you are not going to convince me that a 275g Speer going about 2300-2400fps from a .338-06 will be significantly better – certainly not enough that I’d want to bet my life on the difference. 

To show just how thin the .338-06 edge over the .338 Federal is, take a look at the difference in terms of energy and velocity:

In each line below an asterisk (*) represents 100 foot-pounds.  I know full well that muzzle energy (like penetration) isn’t a good indicator of performance when taken alone, but other factors being equal it is not insignificant, either.


Code: [Select]
*****************************                           .338 Federal, 250g @ 2300fps, 2936fpe
********************************                        .338 Federal, 250g @ 2400fps, 3197fpe
**********************************                      .45-70, 460g @ 1812fps, 3353fpe
***********************************                     .336-06, 250g @ 2500fps, 3469fpe
***********************************                     .338-06, 275g @ 2400fps, 3517fpe
****************************************                .338 Win Mag, 300g @ 2440fps, 3966fpe
***********************************************         .375 Ruger/H&H, 300g @ 2660fps, 4713fpe (Hodgdon)
****************************************************    .416 Remington, 400g @ 2420fps, 5201fpe (Hodgdon)

Again, I’m not denigrating the .338-06, which happens to be a cartridge I think pretty highly of.  All I’m saying is I wouldn’t want to stake my life on the difference between it and the .338 Federal if given other choices.  If I ever head up north it will likely be with my .45-70 stuffed with 460g hardcast and a .375 Ruger loaded with 300g TSX bullets.


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Offline efremtags

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2008, 07:06:11 AM »
The .338 Fed will likely live up to it's expectations as a good big game killer because ammo today is awesome and it is hard to pick a bad cartridge.

Overall I see no point in this caliber other than a marketing thing to keep gun magazine articles full. Only time will tell if popularity will prevail. personaly, I think larger diamater cartridges work best with heavier rounds than this little cartridge will work with without giving up range. A 338WM is a beast, but that is why people like it. It throws heavy 250gr lead 3-400 yards.

I think the 30-06 will provide similar performance with comparable weight loads without much penalty. I see no advantage to adding diameter if it can't be driven faster or use heavier rounds than what already exists.




Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2008, 02:47:12 AM »
I have a Ruger Frontier in 338 Federal. This is going to be my deer/black bear woods gun along with my Marlin 45-70 guide gun.
I like the short action and big bullets.

Is it a marketing ploy? maybe, but show me how many other cartridges started the same way.
I don't know why people have to get so up tight about something new, if it is something you don't see a need for, don't get it. But why not let the people that want to try it do so without all the drama.?
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Offline WyoStillhunter

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2008, 03:18:28 AM »
It's ALL marketing ploy these days.

We have had all the different cartridges and bullets needed, that's N-E-E-D-E-D, for all NA game, including DG, for about 100 years.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2008, 04:38:35 PM »
It's ALL marketing ploy these days.

We have had all the different cartridges and bullets needed, that's N-E-E-D-E-D, for all NA game, including DG, for about 100 years.

If it sells guns, why does anyone care. Nobody has to buy them.
I just don't understand why some people get so bent out of shape about new cartridges.????
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2008, 06:12:46 AM »
I just don't understand why some people get so bent out of shape about new cartridges.????

I don't think anybody really gets bent out of shape, there isn't any reason to.  Probably just enthusiastically discussing the new as compared to the old.  Except me of course.  At the time, I had reason not to like the Fed!    >:(   Look back at my previous post and you will see my sound logic for resenting the little interloper!   ;)

But this thread has got me thinking... (everything gets me thinking!   :P)  I've got a 35 Rem., a .358 Win., and a 35 Whelen and I love them equally!  We play with big bullets, little bullets, pistol bullets, cast bullets... everybody gets along and we always have a good time together!  My .338/06, on the other hand, has no siblings.  So why not the Fed? ???  'sides, I don't got one a them new Ruger rifle-guns.  ;D
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2008, 04:16:49 PM »
Quote
It's ALL marketing ploy these days.

Sigh.  Take a look at the plethora of different cartridges available in the 1880s from Winchester, Remington and Sharps some time.  A huge number of almost-identical cartridges, most introduced to sell more guns.  Some things never change.   I bet the old codgers sitting around the cracker barrel in an 1885 Denver hardware store would grouse to each other about all the 'new-fangled' cartridges designed just to sell more guns - content that all they needed was a .32 WCF, a .44 WCF and a .50-70...... ::)



.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2008, 07:11:38 PM »
Quote
It's ALL marketing ploy these days.

Sigh.  Take a look at the plethora of different cartridges available in the 1880s from Winchester, Remington and Sharps some time.  A huge number of almost-identical cartridges, most introduced to sell more guns.  Some things never change.   I bet the old codgers sitting around the cracker barrel in an 1885 Denver hardware store would grouse to each other about all the 'new-fangled' cartridges designed just to sell more guns - content that all they needed was a .32 WCF, a .44 WCF and a .50-70...... ::)



.

That is true, there were MANY overlapping cartridges in those days.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2008, 12:33:45 AM »
Quote
It's ALL marketing ploy these days.

Sigh.  Take a look at the plethora of different cartridges available in the 1880s from Winchester, Remington and Sharps some time.  A huge number of almost-identical cartridges, most introduced to sell more guns.  Some things never change.   I bet the old codgers sitting around the cracker barrel in an 1885 Denver hardware store would grouse to each other about all the 'new-fangled' cartridges designed just to sell more guns - content that all they needed was a .32 WCF, a .44 WCF and a .50-70...... ::)



.


Yea some things never change lol... ;D
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2008, 03:46:04 AM »
It's ALL marketing ploy these days.

We have had all the different cartridges and bullets needed, that's N-E-E-D-E-D, for all NA game, including DG, for about 100 years.

Speak for yourself, I guess. 

Marketing ploys are nothing new.  The venerated .250-3000, introduced in 1915, is one example – the desired bullet weights wouldn’t hit the desired 3000fps mark so Savage demanded lighter bullets be used – a decision based purely on marketing intentions.  Marketing, which some folks hold in high disdain, is actually a necessary part of building sales – if no one knows about your better mouse trap no one will beat a path to your door to buy it.

Got my first .30-06 in 2006 and have a .30-30 and .45-70 as well, all cartridges over 100 years old.  All are great cartridges which is why they are still around and popular.  With the notable exceptions of the 6.5x55 (Swedish), 7x57mm and 8x57mm, most of their contemporaries have long since all but disappeared in favor of more modern cartridges.

The .257 Roberts, my favorite cartridge, has been around in its current form for quite a while but it is still a generation away from the century mark.  The .22-250, is a relative newcomer, introduced as a commercial cartridge in the early 1960s and not even 50 years old, let alone 100.  Ditto the 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag.  My .308 Winchester uses a cartridge that is slightly older, having been introduced in 1954.  Examples of all of these are in my safe.  Thank you but no, there wasn’t anything available 100 years ago that I would care to have instead of these cartridges.

The flurry of modern cartridge developments has certainly introduced cartridges that, at least for the most part, duplicate the ballistics of cartridges already available, but as has been pointed out, that has been going on for well over 100 years.  The raison d'ętre for these new cartridges varies and sportsmen get to vote with their wallet.  Many of these cartridges have failed to gain lasting popularity while others have become very popular - which indicates to me that the free market is working as it should.  Frankly, I wouldn’t want it any other way.

In the world of firearms there really isn’t much going on in the way of revolutionary new products.  Evolution continues, however, and I for one welcome it.  I guess we could get by with the 6mm Lee Navy, but I consider the .243 Win a better cartridge.  Same deal with the .22 Savage and the .22-250, the .25 Remington and the .25-06, the 6.5x55mm vs the .260 Remington, the 7x57mm vs the 7mm-08 and .280 Remington, the .275 H&H vs the 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-40 Krag vs the .30-06, and so on.   Why do I need a long tapered and belted magnum case designed for Cordite in stick form when no modern powder comes in that form?  I’ll never hunt in the dry heat of Africa but I might hunt Alaska and will certainly continue to hunt elk in Colorado.  Given that I’m not much of a traditionalist when it means humping extra weight around the Colorado mountains, why would I pick a heavy, cumbersome factory .375 H&H when I can choose a .375 Ruger Alaskan instead? 

There were some cartridges, such as the .30 Newton, that perhaps deserved to succeed and survive but did not.  Such is life.  I’ll take my .300 Win Mag over the Newton anyway.

I say “Goodbye” to rimmed cartridges for bolt guns, cartridges that are too long for standard short actions and too short for standard long actions, anachronistic belts on magnums  and -- with very few exceptions -- cartridges designed for black powder pressures or cordite propellants.  With that said, I consider the .375 Ruger case to be the most sensible big game case to be developed since the .308 Winchester and look forward to many new cartridges developed on that case.  (Yes, I know it is very similar to the Newton case.)

The only problem with firearms evolution is that sometimes its slower than I would like.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Country Boy

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Re: 338 federal
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2008, 10:11:33 AM »
 I5 better get faster if O or C gets elected. Have you looked at their proposals. No, you don"t need a .375 for elk, I was talking about costal griz.