At what point is technology too much?

[Zachary]

I have recently been thinking, at what point is technology too much? 

Generally, there is no denying that firearms, and their related components (scopes, etc) have improved over the last 40 years.

Let's look at muzzle loaders, for example.  They have really come a long way.  From shooting inconsistent roundish balls on top of loose powder, to high tech bullets in sabots on top of pellets.  Accuracy on some of these rifles in on par with centerfire rifles, and their range has increased to 150 yards or more.  Davie Crocket sure would be impressed.

Now let's look at scopes.  We now have glass where 95% light transmission is common place.  We even have illuminated reticles.  We have also seen laser rangefinders in some scopes.  Heck, Leupold just came out with a system in its scopes where it adjusts bullet drop based on the angle that you are shooting.

Interestingly, centerfire rifles don't seem to have gone through any significant design improvement.  Yes, we now use stainless barrels, actions, etc., and also high tech synthetic stocks, but nothing too major.  Okay, Savage has come out with a new trigger design with it's Accu-trigger, but I don't find that to be that big of a deal - other companies like Tikka and Sako, for example, have factory triggers that rival a jewel trigger.  T/C has come out with its new Icon, but you really can't say that it's a radical design or improvement.

Then there is ammunition.  Okay, bullets such as Nosler Partitions and Remington core-locks have been around for longer than I've been around, and they sure have, as they still do, account for the harvest of many deer and other animals.  However, there is no denying that there has been substantial improvement in bullet designs and powder, improving both accuracy and downrage performance.

So, where are we heading to next?  Laser guns capable of shooting 5,000 yards and shooting as flat as a ruler all the way that far out? 

I have seen some people turn away from centerfire rifles and go back to muzzleloaders to make it more challenging.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am all for improvements, and I certainly buy into some of the hype.  Also, I perfectly understand the argument that such design improvements can lessen the chance of missing/wounding an animal.  But, on the other hand, you can miss a deer at 50 yards with a muzzle loader just like you can miss it with a centerfire rifle at 200, or just like you can miss it at 25 yards with a bow and arrow. 

The question is, for you, at what point is technology just too much?

Zachary

[Cement Man]

Great question. 
We already have pretty vehement opinions in the hunting & fishing communities over things like long bows vs. compound bows, traditional vs. inline muzzleloaders, etc. , so a lot of folks have already drawn their lines on what is too much.  As I get older and my strength, eyesight, and hearing diminish, I absolutely do appreciate scope sights, bows with lower let-offs, (and this year I can legally use a crossbow in my state), hearing enhancement,and the like.  And for us old coots I think it is fair to use these things because it enables us to take game more cleanly and continue to enjoy our sport.  I guess for me, the line is drawn at enhancements that enable game to be taken more cleanly but do not compromise safety, sound game management, and the ethics of fair chase.  (I hope the reference to ethics doesn't start the barrage - I am not trying to dictate mine for anyone else!)
There are many sides to this discussion, and I can see and appreciate many viewpoints.  The one thing I am sure about though - no hunting via the internet!

[anweis]

The question is, for you, at what point is technology just too much?

Zachary

When the fair chase, the hunt, the pursuit, the tracking end and are replaced by devices and technologies. When people no longer take the time to wait and stalk, when they no longer hike and crawl. When they shoot and injure animals at 400 yards instead of walking 200 yards closer, and they use motorized decoys to attract ducks.
I  am sure that Davie Crockett would appreciate the light weight and warmth of a Goretex jacket. I'd like to think that he would not approve of a bunch of people going everywhere on ATVs, boats, trucks, bikes, and snowmobiles. It defeats the purpose of going out in the wild if we take all that junk with us.

[SHOOTALL]

Get real the hunters in Davy's day would have used anything to increase the kill look at the bison ,  pigeon , most game on the East coast !
Bet that time in Texas he would have loved a belt fed Browning !
A lot of hunting east of the Mississippi is game control as far as deer go ! what difference does it make how they are killed ? If a man can have say 5 doe tags he can kill 5 what difference does it make how ? The fact is the killing is after the hunt ! Some want the meat and some want an experience and some a little of both !
you pick the hunt and the tool for yourself and the rest of us can do the same , i use Black powder so i can hunt 2 more weeks plain and simple !

[charles p]

Electronic ignition for centerfire rifles was a flop.  I predict digital cameras inside scopes so the hunter can replay the shot.

[SHOOTALL]

already there ! saw a tv show with it !

[DalesCarpentry]

I draw the line at phasers!!!!!!!!! Bushnell, Nikon and Burris have a scope out that has a rangefinder built into it. They only come in 12 power. I would like to see one in 16 power I really think that would be a great scope for Groundhogs. The down side to this scope is it costs about $900.00 I am hopeful in a couple years the price will come down on them some. Dale

[Dave in WV]

Two of the things talked about in hunter education are ethics and sportsmanship. If a laser range finder helps make one shot kills, are they bad? I'm not talking about replacing practice and good marksmanship with gadgets. Are in-line muzzle loaders a bad thing? I've met black powder shooters that believe in-lines are the Devil. Is something that gets more hunters out a bad thing? We all have to decide for ourselves where we draw the line. If the equipment another hunter uses isn't unethical or unsporting we should be tolerant or we'll have more black rifle vs "sporting rifle" type fiascoes IMHO. Hunting regs exist for a reason. If they are followed who are we to say what's bad?   I decide what's works for me and go on about my business.

[RaySendero]

I have recently been thinking, at what point is technology too much? 
.....
Zachary

Zach,

If it really bothers you that much - Replace all your rifles and pistols with a flintlock!

PS: Please remember to give us a report on your next hunting season and any home protection issues that come up.

[jvs]

The best technological gains in any product are the gains that not only improve a product, but also make it less expensive to produce.  I ask myself if Synthetic Stocks and Button Rifling are any better. And the only answer I can comes up with is :  Not really better, but they sure are cheaper.   We won't know for years and years if Synthetic stocks will last as long as wood, or if button rifling is long lived as cut rifling.  When was the last time you saw a metal trigger guard on a mass produced rifle?  So technology can work against you too.

As far as bullets... Sabots are not a new idea.  I shoot Patch-N-Ball all the time out of my flintlock.   In this case, technology is based on history because a patch-n-ball load is technically a sabot.  The M1-A1 Abrahms Tank shoots sabots. 

The composite of bullets has changed for the people who insist on paying $30 for 50, and that is the only reason.  The next generation bullet will have NO lead.  The Military is testing one now.

Prior to the 1960's, scopes were mostly unheard of for general civilian use and even today is unnecessary in most cases.   If you don't believe me, ask some of the guys who came back from WWII and still hunt with Peeps or open sights.  Even at their age.

Powder improvements have probably been the best improvements so far.

There isn't much more that can be done with the bolt action.  The basic Bolt Action can hardly ever change, and those sofisticated calibers have probably run their course also. 

Most people think that Technology has made them a better hunter and a better shooter.  I think it has the opposite effect... in spades.   If you disagree, buy or borrow a flintlock with open sights.

If technology can make something more efficient and less expensive, I am all for it.  But unfortunately, sometimes all technology does is make it cheaper.  There is a big difference between cheaper and less expensive.

[SHOOTALL]

In every war that the USA has had to fight those men that had extensive hunting skills seemed to survive and flourish . Many  had the opportunity to use many " tools " in the hunting field that supported their effort in war .
Many returned home with war skills and tools ( the bolt action comes to mind )that were helpful in hunting . Would it be a smart move to restrict this ? Does it really matter if a bullet comes from a front stuffer or a black rifle ? the critter is just as dead !
all we hear is how we owe the critter a fast and painless death , so any tool that helps get to that end should be O"TAY !
right ?
what new device is as revolutionary today that comes close to the self contained cartridge  ? what is more radical today than the repeater was in its day of invention ?
and the range finder or thermal imaging doesn't hold a candle to the invention of the scope !
lets face it the self contained cartridge has been perfected , the rest of our tools are being perfected now ! it seems better for a hunters need , skill , pocket book and morals dictate what he hunts with rather than laws that others make up from emotional / knee jerk reactions to Bambi films !

[corbanzo]

I was at sportsmans warehouse the other day... and saw a turret rest.  For the whole shooter!  You sat in the seat, and could swivel yourself and your rifle around, and had full up and down motion with the rifle... it was crazy.  I really couldn't think of any reason why I would need such a thing. 

I think that when inventions make hunting less sporting... that is when they have gone too far... now the definition of sporting is a whole nother can of worms...

[DalesCarpentry]

Say what you will about that setup but this summer I am getting me one for Groundhog hunting. Where I hunt Groundhogs I can get shots on them out to 500 or 600 yards and to make shots like that you need a good solid rest. One of those setups is just like shooting off a bench. Dale

[Zachary]

I have recently been thinking, at what point is technology too much? 
.....
Zachary

Zach,

If it really bothers you that much - Replace all your rifles and pistols with a flintlock!

PS: Please remember to give us a report on your next hunting season and any home protection issues that come up.

I didn't say that it bothered me.  All I asked is at what point is technology too much, that's all.  As most of our members know, I own several modern rifles, scopes, and ammunition.

Zachary

[Coyote Hunter]

I have recently been thinking, at what point is technology too much? 

All I can say is that we're not even close yet.

When my GPS displays a map with game animal locations on it in real time, well, then I'd say its too much.

[DalesCarpentry]

I have recently been thinking, at what point is technology too much? 

All I can say is that we're not even close yet.

When my GPS displays a map with game animal locations on it in real time, well, then I'd say its too much.

Now that would be great. Dale

[sniperVLS]

Say what you will about that setup but this summer I am getting me one for Groundhog hunting. Where I hunt Groundhogs I can get shots on them out to 500 or 600 yards and to make shots like that you need a good solid rest. One of those setups is just like shooting off a bench. Dale

My friend, where in PA do you live and how much do I have to pay you so I can tag along and nail a few? 

[Zachary]

I have recently been thinking, at what point is technology too much? 

All I can say is that we're not even close yet.

When my GPS displays a map with game animal locations on it in real time, well, then I'd say its too much.

Well, for me at least, I find that too much because that takes all the "hunting" out of it.

On a somewhat related note, I am kinda on the fence when it comes to those infa-red thingies that help you track/find downed game.  On the one hand, I think it also takes the hunting out of it - tracking downed game is part of the hunt. On the other hand, however, an argument can be made that such electronics can help people find game that would otherwise be lost/wasted.

Zachary

[SHOOTALL]

when a way of life becomes a sport that's what happens !

[beemanbeme]

Corbonzo, you ought to see some of the rigs they're dragging out to the pairie dog pastures now.  Trailers with shooting benches, canopys, fans, hot and cold running adult beverages (i'm sure) lazer range finders, wind thingies. Poor old dog don't stand a chance. I'm gonna guess when they start getting that techie, they're more interested in how many dogs they kill at what "lazered" distance than how much fun they are having. If they're interested in having fun at all.   

[SHOOTALL]

only difference in men and boys is the price of their toys !

and he who dies with the most wins !

the dogs still have more of a chance than with poison !

[jvs]

Trailers with shooting benches, canopys, fans, hot and cold running adult beverages (i'm sure) lazer range finders, wind thingies. Poor old dog don't stand a chance. I'm gonna guess when they start getting that techie, they're more interested in how many dogs they kill at what "lazered" distance than how much fun they are having.

As long as you don't call this 'hunting'.  There is alot of things I could call this, but it ain't hunting.  (As I understand the term)  If anything, this practice, as described above, is Technology gone wild.  IMO.

[corbanzo]

Corbonzo, you ought to see some of the rigs they're dragging out to the pairie dog pastures now.  Trailers with shooting benches, canopys, fans, hot and cold running adult beverages (i'm sure) lazer range finders, wind thingies. Poor old dog don't stand a chance. I'm gonna guess when they start getting that techie, they're more interested in how many dogs they kill at what "lazered" distance than how much fun they are having. If they're interested in having fun at all.   

You know that fan and the sun shade sounds good and all... but I think that I would rather have a margarita and be on the beach with all of that!   

If I got a gun in my hand there better be hills, mud, and the satisfaction of knowing I actually accomplished something with my day.  I don't know if it's just me....  but I like being tired.  And not the... oh boy, turning my rifle back and forth was hard!  I want to look like a used up Klondike call girl when I'm done with my day of hunting. 

If I wanted all that yuppie crap I could go and buy myself one of those video game systems and play a shootemup game all day.  All I'd have to do is move my fingers on the buttons.  Once we have tracked robots with remote positioned rifles and controls from camp...  that is the day I give up.

[SHOOTALL]

all i want is shoot and release then i won't have to worry about limits and can hunt all day !

[DalesCarpentry]

Say what you will about that setup but this summer I am getting me one for Groundhog hunting. Where I hunt Groundhogs I can get shots on them out to 500 or 600 yards and to make shots like that you need a good solid rest. One of those setups is just like shooting off a bench. Dale

My friend, where in PA do you live and how much do I have to pay you so I can tag along and nail a few? 

"sniperVLS". You are more than welcome to join me sometime. I live 55 miles south east of pittsburgh. You can do a Map Quest thing and find right where I live. My little town is called Scottdale Pa. 15683. The best time for you to come would spring to late spring because I get them thinned out by summer. I have about 4 or 5 farms I hunt and the farmers are happy to have me kill them. I have had days I get 4 or 5 with just riding around those farms for a couple hours. The best time to go in real early in the morning and a couple hours or so before sun set. Let me know Dale.

[DalesCarpentry]

Say what you will about that setup but this summer I am getting me one for Groundhog hunting. Where I hunt Groundhogs I can get shots on them out to 500 or 600 yards and to make shots like that you need a good solid rest. One of those setups is just like shooting off a bench. Dale

My friend, where in PA do you live and how much do I have to pay you so I can tag along and nail a few? 

I just did the Map Quest thing myself. You live 160 miles from me. I won't cost you a thing but gas. Dale

[corbanzo]

all i want is shoot and release then i won't have to worry about limits and can hunt all day !

There you go!  But I think in some juristictions you have to clip the barbs off your bullets.

[SuperstitionCoues]

A complex question with a simple answer:

We have reached a level of "too much technology" when 1) we can no longer monetarily afford the increases in technology, and 2) when technology begins to interfere with our own life experience, meaning when it begins to distance us or place a barrier between us (as a person or population) and interaction with either other humans or the natural world. 

Call me a Luddite, but I think we are already there.

[SHOOTALL]

a computer allows me more interaction with people and some high tec. products allow me to see or see better critters that i may have missed with out aid . and any help with a shot hitting its mark better , why not ?
man is a tool user ! always has been ! who are we to change ?
now the trailor with all the stuff , not much different than some of the duck blinds i have hunted out of ! some duck hunters feel it is rough if they have to cook themselves !

[beemanbeme]

I would imagine there was some luddite like me whining when they put the first stone tip on a spear and I was thinking about some of those fancy duck blinds when I was typing about the Pdog trailers.
 
Here in Wild and Wonderful (fyi Shootall, I'm a Virginian, long story) they have some pretty fancy deer "blinds" so I would imagine it's only a matter of time before some outfitter in Col or WY or NM has some fancy rig set up for his couch potato sport to shoot his elk or mulie out of. Just helicopter him in, let him "rough it" overnight in his hunting trailer, get up the next morning in his cammo jammies and shoot his elk out the window, and helicopter out. Outfitter would provide him a throw-away with the distance of the shot, how far he had to climb, altitude, hardships, etc.
 Outfitter could handle twice the business and no shoveling horse manure. Kewl!