At what point is technology too much?

[SHOOTALL]

I was going to rib ya about W.Va and being southern  ! but from Va. , what can i say ! lucky you !

[anweis]

As long as you don't call this 'hunting'.  There is alot of things I could call this, but it ain't hunting.  (As I understand the term)  If anything, this practice, as described above, is Technology gone wild.  IMO.

Whatever they call it, i don't think that living animals should be used for target practice. There is paper for that.

[SHOOTALL]

what else are ground hogs good fer ?

[DalesCarpentry]

  Dale

[weasel]

The outfitter I work for has seen lots of changes, usta be they'd just ride out, jump some bucks, let the client take his pick. Wasn't too long ago the guides started using spotting scopes and good binocs, and the  clients had bigger and bigger magnums, rangefinders, GPSs, etc, but they drew the line on radios. All these years they would communicate with binocs and hand signals. The deer just aren't there like they once were, we figgered we had to give up something for them. Some of the stories the old timers there tell about the #s and quality of the bucks are like dreaming now.

[Zachary]

Well, that's not necessarily true, which causes me to think about technology from another perspective.....Do any of you consider these super high energy food plots too much technology?  I have seen some monster bucks come as a result from these plots.

Zachary

[SuperstitionCoues]

Well, that's not necessarily true, which causes me to think about technology from another perspective.....Do any of you consider these super high energy food plots too much technology?  I have seen some monster bucks come as a result from these plots.

Zachary

As a doctoral student and ecologist who is working on deer nutrition and metabolism, yes, I do.  IMHO it simplifies the equation for the hunter while creating another artificial environment for the deer - is that food plot a sustainable resource that is perpetuating without the care and energy input of a monochromatic crop land?  Is the food plot introducing non-native species into the deer's ecosystem that will further disrupt it's habitat in the long run?  Is a hunter really hunting when he knows with some degree of certainty that he can walk to a blind, stay for 30 min., and bag a buck or doe, dependent on season?  And would the hunter be able to do that, at that location of deer habitat, without the food plot?  At that point, man has manipulated the ecosystem to the point where he is no longer hunting in the deer's natural habitat, but an artificial ecosystem designed to lure them within range.  Where is the "hunting" in that?

[SHOOTALL]

add to that the selling and posting of land along with it the lack of areas large enough to Hunt in traditional ways , the planting of crop by farmers that also draw and hold game and the cost to rent land that does support some traditional hunting and it becomes clear that just hunting is not available for many if not most . No doubt man has changed the habitat and the way we use the land and critters on it has changed also ! Had it not then there would be little if any hunting in many areas of the country .
It is foolish to expect anyone to engage in any activity that success is impossible or restricted to the point that it is rare .
land to hunt here is from $6.00 to 16.00 per acre ( better areas the most ).
the food plot is but a little insurance to help reach some degree of success . Most here don't sit on the plot but routes to it . Please post what food to plant that will bring trophy bucks to a plot that i can sit on the stand for a couple hours and harvest a wall hanger , i really can't remember how many years i have been planting them but have yet to see a trophy at one during legal shooting hours .
To listen to some the putting up up bird houses and feeders to get birds to come in your yard must be the down fall of bird watching !

[anweis]

Well, that's not necessarily true, which causes me to think about technology from another perspective.....Do any of you consider these super high energy food plots too much technology?  I have seen some monster bucks come as a result from these plots.

Zachary

As a doctoral student and ecologist who is working on deer nutrition and metabolism, yes, I do.  IMHO it simplifies the equation for the hunter while creating another artificial environment for the deer - is that food plot a sustainable resource that is perpetuating without the care and energy input of a monochromatic crop land?  Is the food plot introducing non-native species into the deer's ecosystem that will further disrupt it's habitat in the long run?  Is a hunter really hunting when he knows with some degree of certainty that he can walk to a blind, stay for 30 min., and bag a buck or doe, dependent on season?  And would the hunter be able to do that, at that location of deer habitat, without the food plot?  At that point, man has manipulated the ecosystem to the point where he is no longer hunting in the deer's natural habitat, but an artificial ecosystem designed to lure them within range.  Where is the "hunting" in that?

Well, for many decades now the focus of wildlife management in America has been to manipulate habitats to produce more game. If you look around the wildlife departments in state agencies and at universities, you find deer biologists, turkey biologists, and quail biologists galore. I am glad that Zachary asked this question, because i think that we need a new land ethic to guide our decisions about habitat management.
No, it ain't hunting to wait by a high energy food plot.

[SHOOTALL]

no its shooting , and alot of fun !

[SuperstitionCoues]

anweis,

You are correct that for years we did manipulate habitats for game production, often to the detriment of the game in question or the longevity of the habitat itself.  Man made infrastructure and invasive species were created and brought in that forever changed the movement, watering and feeding patterns of wildlife (yes, even birds) out of traditional migration patterns.  50-100 years ago, what we thought was a good thing for the habitat or necessary for the economy turned out to be exactly the opposite. 

The trend now is to teach future resource managers to maintain and preserve what natural habitat is left, improve the connectivity between the fragmented portions of the habitat increasing the useability for the game to be managed, and if possible (and if needed) to begin to restore damaged or altered habitat/landscapes to a realistic previous point in time where the habitat and the wildlife therein are a sustainable, perpetuating resource. 

Having the absolute maximum number of animals in a given habitat so that you can shoot more isn't good management strategy.  Generally, they will end up eating themselves out of house and home, and the population will ultimately crash, taking the genetic resource that delivered that giant buck away.  That is not just my opinion, but a well documented experience in ungulate management.

[anweis]

to restore damaged or altered habitat/landscapes to a realistic previous point in time where the habitat and the wildlife therein are a sustainable, perpetuating resource. 

That sounds like my job description.

I bet $0.02 that for every $1 spent for creating food plots we've spent $3 due to white tailed deer overpopulation.

Shootall, there is more to birdwatching than feeding birds. On my last serious birding trip, i prepared for weeks by climbing stairs and carrying weight, i learned bird songs, studied habitat use and behavior of birds, examined maps and published literature, trekked, crawled, and climbed. In the end, i did not kill anything, but observed and listened. I took home satisfaction, memories, and a pencil mark on my bird list. I had just as much fun (if not more) as i had on my best big game hunt.       

[SHOOTALL]

GOOD FOR YOU ! it is always great to hear of someone having a good time !
my favorite way to view birds is with my 20 ga o/u tight to my sholder cheek welded to the stock and eyes looking out over the barrels ! I know it was a successful day as i step out the shower i smell the birds comming off the stove as my lovely wife has prepared a good meal once again !
To each his own i say !

[SHOOTALL]

and another thing , we used to have many farmers planting on and around the land we deer hunt ( about 4500 ac. )
most retired and put land in timber . we have a few more hunters and kill alot less deer now with out plots we would harvest even less . Maybe you should look at farming as the reason deer are over populated not hunters !

[beemanbeme]

Hunting the edge of a harvested soy bean field or a stand of oaks? What's the difference?  They both feed a great number of deer and only a few deer are killed.  Actually, the soy been field will sustain more deer as the they will feed the deer almost year around with greens and seeds whereas the oaks only have that short period during nut drop and, in a mature forest, for the rest of the year the forest is pretty sterile.
Since man trys to control the calamities of forest fires and such that regenerat the understory that forest browsers depend on, and since stupid people frown on clear cutting in all locations, food plots have to be developed or the deer and other browsers would starve. 
You folks that think sitting over a food plot, or a stand of oaks during nut drop for that matter, is like going to the meat counter at a market need to try it sometimes.  No matter where you hunt, those big bucks didn't get big by being stupid.

[SHOOTALL]

Ya'll got it made in WVA ! the nuts roll down hill and collect at the bottom , ours stay spread out under the tree on this flat land and we have to keep moving the stand !

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm,

     I wonder if them boys during the Civil war using their Whitworth .451 rifles realised that 15 yards was the maximum range and not the 1/2 mile or so that  accurate shots were actually taken using such rifles. The std Enfield pattern 53 in .577" was shot in competition on Wimbledon Common at ranges of 600 yards and more. During the annual meeting of the NRA and volunteer movement. Muzzle loading rifles like the Deely & Edge, Rigby and Metford were shot often at ranges of 1000 and 1200 yards.

    This fact is reconised as in certain states muzzle loading rifles using bullets longe than their diameter are not allowed for hunting effectively banning the likes of the .451" Enfield, Whitworth and Metford rifles and the replicas of such even though their 480 grain pure lead bullets are superb for hunting and have easily enough power for Elk and Moose at normal ranges. Loaded properly they are not far behind factory center fire rifles in accuracy either.

[Old English]

Brithunter, it must have been those nasty mean with Enfields that eliminated the Wombles from Wimbledon common.

[Dave in WV]

What's the real difference between a food plot and shaking the persimon trees the day before deer season comes in? I shake the trees and have for years.

[rbergum95]

my 2 cents - technology is  too much when hunters start to think that supermagnum cartridges in ultra high priced rifles with scopes so powerful you can see the rings of saturn can make up for shooting skill. oops, too late.

ron

[beemanbeme]

This magnum rifle that some like to rail against is like a stone headed axe. Some cave men used it to brain a deer and crack open a nut; others couldn't understand the principles and just mashed their fingers.

[Brithunter]

Brithunter, it must have been those nasty mean with Enfields that eliminated the Wombles from Wimbledon common.

 Hi Old English,

      The Wombles came about due to a young lady not being able to pronounce Wimbledon and her Mother wrote stories to entertain her using this and so the Wombles were born.

       Now from 1860 until 1889 the NRA held their Annual Prize meeting was held over two weeks in the summer on Wimbledon common the reason for the move to Bisley on the edge of Cowshot Manor due to the growth of London and the accidental shootign of a grave digger. The new breed of target rifles like the .461" and 451" meant that longer ranges adn a further distant as a safety area was required.

[SHOOTALL]

3 things hinder advancement 1) the lack of understanding
                                        2) the lack of funds to gain it
                                        3) the    stupidity of   politicians trying to control it because of screams from the other 2
if the use of a   device or  practice allows for the quick and humane collection of a critter why is it wrong ?
you the hunter have the  ability to restrict yourself why force it on others ?

[beemanbeme]

Well now, Shootall, there has to be a reasonable limit if it is to be considered "sporting" by any stretch of the word. Or an adherence to the spirit of the law rather than a vague acquiescence to the letter of the law. Those monstrosities with infra-red laser sights that you can't tell if they are a rifle or a Sears vacuum cleaner that are being passed off as "primitive weapons" come to mind. And too, a crawfish coloured hand grenade would be an excellent way to gather a mess of fish but is it exactly sporting?

[SHOOTALL]

hand grenades have been around to long to be new tech.
let us face reality . The game dept. allows each hunter a number of say deer . now for game control why would it matter the tool ?
I feel when both bow and ML seasons were established they were earned by hunters that really wanted to hunt that way . At some point the equipment suppliers got involved and we now have gone past the original intent .
that said what does it matter ? i believe hunting is not sport , skeet is sport !
Hunting is food gathering , man has done so since time began . the fact that man no longer needs to hunt does not make it a sport . I feel it is a time honored CRAFT practiced by many for recreation , food and learning .
The biggest mistake hunters make is calling it Sport as sport it can be ended as a food gathering practice it denoted mans historical right to feed himself and demands to be protected as a God given right not subject to the whims of non hunters !  IMHO !

[anweis]

i believe hunting is not sport

The biggest mistake hunters make is calling it Sport as sport it can be ended as a food gathering practice it denoted mans historical right to feed himself and demands to be protected as a God given right not subject to the whims of non hunters !  IMHO !

It is sport to most of us. We no longer hunt because we are hungry. Maybe it is time to show some personal responsibility rather than to project everything on God.
It is a democracy. If 51% of people vote against hunting and guns, i don't see how God will help you with that.
 

[anweis]

practiced by many for recreation

That is a sport.

[sniperVLS]

Is using Google Earth 2 much tech? I love it and wish it was around many years ago 

[Coyote Hunter]

It is sport to most of us. We no longer hunt because we are hungry. Maybe it is time to show some personal responsibility rather than to project everything on God.
It is a democracy. If 51% of people vote against hunting and guns, i don't see how God will help you with that.
 

There are actually a fair number of people left who DO rely on hunting for survival to greater or lesser degrees, though most live in the more remote regions of our country.

But what I really responded to say was this:

We do NOT live in a democracy.  What we have is a representative republic and there is a HUGE difference.

[SHOOTALL]

Well if you check sport hunting was/is a past time associated with SPORTS who traveled to hunt around the turn of the last century . It was a Name given to them with little respect . Today as then many still hunt to fill the meat locker with wild game . Maybe more so out of desire than need but never the less for the meat not the sport .
Unless we change our laws and stop being a Federalist govt. the population will never vote on it . The right to feed ones self like self defense could be augured in court . Since the Constitution does not address it then it could be assumed that the federal govt. has no jurisdiction over it . But to call it a sport - look at base ball what can you say !
Recreation does not make a sport , My mother makes quilts for fun , much like my hunting quilts and food can be gained from other sources , but we enjoy both keeping an art and tradition alive both were necessary in the history of man !
marksmanship training ( target shooting ) is an art of war not sport but it is recreation for many .
I have a hard time understanding your opposition as most who hunt see the seriousness of killing animals and do not try to pass it off as a mere sport . Hunters and shooters will never keep the respect we deserve if we continue to hide behind false names . Names from yesteryear that camouflaged the real meaning of what was going on .
look at it this way a person that neither hunts or protest hunting hears a Peta person question why you hunt , you can say because it is sport or you can say it is a time honored way to collect food ! forget laws which would sound like a more positive answer ?
At one time i called it sport but as i did i ask that all resist the desire to argue for the sake of argument and take a real hard look at what hunting really is and what is best for hunting tradition .