Author Topic: Break open advantages and disadvantages? (Read 2358 times)

hotburn76 · « **on:** February 12, 2008, 04:45:42 PM »

Do break open single shot center fire guns have the same ability as a good bolt action gun or does a bolt action have given advantages that a break open can never have. Reason why I ask is I have a Handi 204 ruger that I am pretty happy with and I have yet to put the time into finding a good hand load for it yet, but still have great 100 yard groups. I am wanting to get a 243 and have it reamed out to 243-AI but would still like to stay with a gun like the H&R. Can they rival each other or is the bolt always better? I have a guy at work that tells me that a break open can never be as good as a bolt gun. I made a post about this in another forum, but feel it may be a forum that has alot of bolt action in it and thought this forum could prove or disprove the advantages of either. I have read the lock up is what is important and if that is achieved then you have a great gun, if not you have a problem? The single shot is not a disadvantage for me. Most of my hunting is in archery season so I have the culture of only one shot is all I need. So other then that can I be at a disadvantage with as break open? I like my Handi alot and it is a simple, get it done gun. I am not into fancy bells and whistles stuff. I want as simple as it can get and the Handi gives that to me.

Default · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2008, 04:57:45 PM »

Hot,

The accuracy in these rifles is there,As you will find if you put a little time in the 204 of yours...Have heard real good things about the H&R /NEF 204 rifles. ..So your only real disadvantage is faster follow up shots....But on the other side of that arguement, In my experiences One Shot is usually all you get (even when i have ran autoloaders) ... So Accuracy is on both sides...I own both and will continue to ,But these great priced rifles advantages lay really in the person and their wants.. You want to ream a 243 out to the AI cartridge ,Should after you have this done you not like it ... Or (god forbid) it should be done poorly .... I myself would rather it be on a handi then a bolt costing me twice the cash ... Anywho just a few scattered thoughts hope that they help , I know the rest of the boys will chime in with their thoughts on your subject.

Regards,

Default

P.S. Besides what other rifle is there that costs you (in most instances) under $300.00 and can have as many barrels as you want in whatever caliber you like for $87 to $116 bucks ??

This is why i bought my nephew's first rifle from H&R in 243 ....For its versitility of caliber choices ,Truely a rifle that can grow with the boy ..

trotterlg · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2008, 05:00:23 PM »

You are on the Handi board, so you will get a lot of Handi votes. Truth is that a Handi will NEVER be able to be as accurate and consistant as a good bolt gun is. It is just the mechanics of the thing. Someone will post some targets with one hole groups, but the smart money will go with a bolt gun every time (especially in 243). Larry

P.S. You cannot make a proper AI using a Handi rifle.

hotburn76 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2008, 05:13:42 PM »

Trotterlg,

Can you you please say why it will never be as good? What do you base this on? Thats what I want to know about, facts as to why it is or is not as good. Also, why can you not do a AI in a Handi? The AI does not involve the rear of the case, only the shoulder area right? Not saying you are wrong, but need to understand the reason or facts as to what you say. I am new to this area of shooting, so these are honest questions, not defensive ones.

trotterlg · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2008, 05:34:20 PM »

First the AI chamber. A proper AI chamber is slightly shorter to the neck/sholder transition than the parent cartridge is. This allows a non-AI case to be held rearward to fire by a slight "crush" fit in the chamber. The sholder then blows out and you get the AI case. To do this in a Bolt rifle you trim a little off the breach of the barrel and then chamber it with the AI reamer. This is what they are talking about when they say set back the barrel. You cannot set back a Handi barrel, so you cannot make a proper AI chamber in it. You can make some sort of blown out type case, but it will not be AI and it will not be able to properly shoot factory non AI cartridges like a proper AI rifle can. The break open design is not, and cannot be made as rigid as a bolt action rifle is, for repeatable accuracy you need rigid. They can be very accurate, but then a bolt gun can be very very accurate. The accuracy of the Handi is much more reliant on the operator, close it the same way each time, oil it the same way each time, rest it on the bags the same way every time, you get the picture. I have several, they are fun, but when I am shooting something I need accuracy with I use my Savage. Larry

AiredaleTerrier · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2008, 06:01:38 PM »

How about "lock time"? Doesn't a handi have more? This would be a disadvantage for the handi...

trotterlg · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2008, 07:15:19 PM »

The transfer bar system can also be a minor problem, it does increase lock time, cause some light primer strikes and require a different type of trigger pull, a fairly minor annoyance, but just another little chink in the armor. Remember the market H&R is after, the guy who needs a deer rifle next week and only has a couple of hundred bucks to spend. The people on this board are the exceptions, bet we account for less than .01% of the handi rifle buyers. Larry

hotburn76 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:04:23 AM »

Thanks for adding more to what you said Larry. I asked last week about going from 243 to 6mm and then realized I could not do that but after looking into it more I thought I could go from 243 to a 243-AI, if you look at the case specs looks like the metal is there to do it. On another forum that was the suggestion several guys gave me was to go to the 243 AI since it would not require a set back. IF I am wrong I will just have to do a 243 to a 6mm-AI, I know fro sure The Quick guy, cant remember his full name told me this could be done. Hopefully he chimes in, was wanting his two cents on this since in one of his post he has forty Handi's or something like that. Would just like more info so I can refute when guys say my Handi is a lesser gun.

rex6666 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:30:52 AM »

I am 60 years old, i know that my mind might be slippig away.
I can not understand why i would own a rifle that I would only shoot for fun, if i wanted
to hit something i would have to go to another rifle. Like I said maybe am slipping or
maybe i am just stupid, if i don't expect to hit the target or what ever i could just as well
shoot it up in the air, guess that would be fun at nite, see the fire oh wow not hit any thing but it is fun to shoot.
I am one of those people that have handis that WILL shoot groups that touch, i can do anything
i want with a handi that "I" need to i am not saying a bolt gun is not better, but for my needsthe handi will do just as well, of course i don't need whistles and bells, I for one can live with the cal. that come in the Handi, others might be nice, but i am not going to put the gun down because my $700.00-$1,000.0 looks better. (don't think it is better)

hotburn76 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:47:02 AM »

Your not getting old, people just get openly honest as they age! LOL!!

That is the one thing I like about the Handi break open style. The same thing that I like about my recurve over compound, simple! IMO why have more moving parts then you need. My 204 has a .62 inch group, and I still have work to do with loading. I am happy with that, and if the 243 is just as good, I could be happy with that also. I am about 95% sure that I want the next to be a Handi, just would like to have facts to set people right when they think my gun is just a cheap break open.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:51:04 AM »

If you're looking for serious benchrest accuracy you'll never get there with a handi rifle. Bolt guns are just more rigid both in chamber and in stock. If you'll read through the faqs on accuracy tips they are all about tightening up the barrel to receiver fit and taking out the wiggles and shakes which can never be entirely eliminated. However, an out of the box handi may be as accurate or even more accurate than an out of the box bolt gun and a well accurized handi will outshoot most bolt guns. The best way to silence your friends is to out shoot them.
As to the .243 AI, you just seem determined to have a wildcat chambering which offers no real world advantage over the factory chamber, any ballistic advantage will never be detectable in field results. Why not just work with the .243 and try to get those "bragging groups" before you jump into unknown waters. Just how much an "improved" cartridge may be improved depends on the room for improvement. A case with a lot of taper, such as say a 25/35 can be blown out straight and sharp shouldered and gain a considerable increase in powder capacity. Something like the .243 can gain very little. The improved ballistics of most wildcat cartridges is due mainly to loading them to much higher pressures than the industry standard. The handi rifle is also not a good basis for such really hot loads.
One advantage to a break open is that they are some 4-5" shorter than a repeater with the same barrel length. They also can use loads which would not feed from a magazine. You can easily look through the bore if you have the slightest suspicion there may be some obstruction and just breaking the gun open makes it perfectly safe even if you leave the round in the chamber (ejector guns need not apply). I used to hunt with an old fellow who carried his Iver Johnson 12 gauge single with a round in the chamber but never closed it until a pheasant was in the air, he said it was both safer and easier to carry draped over his left arm.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:07:43 AM »

I have both bolts and single shot breakovers,and if its a serious hunt,the bolts go with me.I hunt wild hogs at least 3 days a week for the last 15 yrs. and with Handi's for the last 7.They'll shoot good for 2 or 3 months,and for unknown reason's they'll start shooting all over the place.I've tried everything possible when they start shooting bad,and nothing helps,except put them in the closet for a couple of months.My old Vangaurds have held there zero for as long as I can remember( 8 to 10 years).As most of us here knows,the Handi's can drive you crazy some times.I still carry my Handi's hunting alot,just not on the serious hunts. Digger

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:37:21 AM »

Quote from: hotburn76 on February 13, 2008, 04:04:23 AM

On another forum that was the suggestion several guys gave me was to go to the 243 AI since it would not require a set back. IF I am wrong I will just have to do a 243 to a 6mm-AI, I know fro sure The Quick guy, cant remember his full name told me this could be done. Hopefully he chimes in, was wanting his two cents on this since in one of his post he has forty Handi's or something like that. Would just like more info so I can refute when guys say my Handi is a lesser gun.

As Larry mentioned, you can't do a true 243 Ackley Improved chamber from a 243 due to the fact that you won't be able to shoot factory 243 ammo in it, what you'll end up with is a 243 Improved which will have too much headspace to shoot factory ammo and only fireformed handloads will work in it. This is due to the fixed barrel, on a rifle with a threaded barrel, the barrel can be screwed into the receiver one thread and the Ackley chamber cut, on a fixed barrel, cutting the Ackley chamber will result in a chamber that's slightly longer to the shoulder and factory ammo will have considerable headspace, about .050" on my 280 Improved, due to the shoulder being deeper.

The reason you can rechamber to a 6mmAI is due to the 6mm chamber being longer in the first place than a 243 chamber.

Tim

rex6666 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:42:48 AM »

Digger
what do you do with those ole handis that quit shooting, fence post. tomato vine supports
Like i said i am 60 years old so all my shots are seriuos
I know their is a big dif. in REAL bench shooting and shootiong off a bench, watched two guys last weekend, both had REAL bench guns, i mean barrels that look like drill pipe, took the about 1-1/12 hrs to get set up
fired 3 shots in about 30-45 min. man they were having some fun. It all depends on what you call fun. I think if you took a pole and ask how many just go out and shoot, not
to hit anything you might be surprised. I think most people want to hit something be it
bullseye,,soda bottle w/water, white rock,coyote,PD, anything i don't think any one will truthfuly say oh i don't want to hit ant thing or would hav brought the soandso rifle.

hotburn76 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:54:03 AM »

Tim, So as long as I plan on only shooting fire formed brass I am ok right? I guess I never knew you could go back to regular 243 once you did the 243-AI, only could do it to make more brass and not do real shooting that way. Not sure if I read it on here, maybe this thread that I should not even fire loaded ammo and only do the cream of wheat thing, I think I have read that on a couple places now that I think of it. Also Tim could you give more insight to the bolt compared to the break open, or have the guys mentioned above said enough? I have a post about this on HNI and am impressed with the feed back they a giving for a break open, but I think they think I have a TC and not a Handi.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2008, 06:05:03 AM »

I'd fireform using the technique in the FAQs, created a false shoulder and then load cheap bullets using start data as recommended in the Nosler 5th, you'll get perfectly formed brass.

Bolt vs break barrel has been pretty well covered so far, so there's no need for me to say the same thing that's been said already.

Tim

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2008, 06:07:45 AM »

Which are more accurate? The bolt gun has the advantage. It has a fixed stock for one thing so that you do not have to reset the relationship between the barrel and receiver each time you pull the trigger. You do not see any break actions in serious bench rest competition. There is a little give in the latch/lug area that contributes to differences between shots too. With that said; a properly tuned Handi with loads it likes will shoot as well as you need to; to hunt with, be it a varmint, predator or big game. I like single shot rifles and have converted my bolt varmint rigs to single shots, if they were not already single shots. It might have some thing to do with my first guns; a bolt single shot Mossberg 22 and a Stevens break open single shot 20 gauge. I have two Handi frames and 6 barrels. I would appreciate a more refined rifle, but I realize that would up the cost. It would not make it shoot better. I have laminated stocks and fore ends on mine. My wife thinks the "ultra" Handis are some of my better looking guns. Bottom line...if you want to do some serious bench rest shooting get a custom built, single shot bolt gun cost some where around $2500 + scope and mounts. if you want to punch some paper, shoot varmints or that deer , then the Handi will do just fine at a lot less cost.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2008, 06:56:25 AM »

Rex6666,I leave them in the closet for 2 months and they ususally shoot fine after that. I've changed scopes,loads,and everything in between,and nothing helps.I'm kinda old and hardheaded (66yrs.) and I was dead set on making them shoot right.Weell my loading bench is covered with every kind of powder,bullets,primers,and brass made now,because of these rifles. I'm not the only one thats had this luck (just ask Hellacather,demag41,jph45,etc.) I'm down to 3 recievers and 4 barrels for now.I'm having a little better luck with the CVA Optima Elites for right now,but that could change.

Digger

rex6666 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2008, 07:07:30 AM »

i am not much of gunsmith, i am not disagreeing with you it just blows my mind that letting them set for 1-2 months helps, what could possibly be going on with them, I wish you hadn't told me, i will study on this way too much.

Sourdough · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2008, 09:22:20 AM »

I'm not a target shooter, you won't see me posting any targets with touching holes. I could, I've shot a few sighting in. I'm a hunter, I shoot critters. Moose, Caribou, bears, wolves, Coyotes, Foxes, and Lynx. Would love to shoot Dall Sheep and Rocky Mtn. Goats, but they are for young men, of which I am not one. I own many guns bolts, pumps, levers, semi-autos, and several single shots. For my personal use I usually grab a Handi. The Handi will match or beat any of the rest of them. A lot of my shots are over 300 yards, and the Handi will do that. I sometimes need a second follow up shot and my Handis will make it. They are rugged, light, and easy to carry. But the number one reason is that you can hit your intended target with one. It will do it's part, if you do yours.

rex6666 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2008, 10:19:54 AM »

Sourdough
I am sorry to say that we can not all live in a place that we can hunt year round,
theirfore i have to resort to hunting paper, some of them require several shots because they can be very dangerous and tough. and since they do not taste very good no matter
how you cook them, we just have to score them in some maner, thus the goups.
would you consider adopting me so i could move home and have more time to hunt

just bill · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2008, 10:33:51 AM »

JOM-

Bolt Action Single Shot -
In single shot (with out clip or floor plate) is one of THE most accurate potential platforms to build from. Clips,floor plates,etc. take a big hunk-o-wood from the stock as compared to single shot bolts. Its one of the reasons companies like Cooper primarily use that configuration to start with. Now Savage does it with some of there long range stuff. As compared to a break action they reload for follow up shots much slower imo

Break Action Single Shot-
Shorter over all length handles better. The break action is much quicker to reload especially when using a side saddle (stock) shell carrier. Few smiths specialize in break action rifles. It would take a special smith to eek out the accuracy potential of a Handi Rifle as compared to a medium to high quality factory single shot bolt.

Break action rifles are made to hunt with...............plain and simple...........not bench rest shoot. For me they also position shoot well because of there balance.

bighemidaddy · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2008, 12:39:56 PM »

If you want a very accurate single shot get a ruger#1

bighemidaddy

carbineman · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2008, 05:16:03 AM »

Advantage to me is that both me and a relative are left handed and mainly use our Toppers/handis to hunt with. The shorter than normal length is a big plus for us as we can still have a 22" barrel with a 38" rifle, 40" for our Trackers.

My point of impact doesn't move much if at all until I fire more than 5 shots in a short period of time. I've noticed that our trackers are as accurate as our Toppers/handi's. We now just have 30-30's and one .223 Ultra, and five Tracker II's in the family.

I have been able to reload fairly fast if necessary, and use a Franks Wrist Reloaderfor rifle, or the buttstock nylon holder for shotgun.

I like the lightweight, short length, and great handling of the H&R/NEF singles. Accuracy is not that bad either. My handi's are just tools and I use them as such. Great Value for me and it allows me to spend more for components to get to be a better shot.

Sourdough · « **Reply #24 on:** February 14, 2008, 07:19:25 AM »

By the way, the Caribou in my new avatar was shot with a Handi 30-06 at 250 yards. Nosler 180gr Partition. One shot, he ran about 45 yards and fell.

snmann · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2008, 04:05:30 PM »

If you take the majority of hunters, have them set up in a "real" life hunting situation (shooting free hand or just off a rail), they cannot shoot as accurate as the rifle no matter the cost of that rifle. If you lock it in a bench vise, that is a different story. I have Handi .22's, 20 guage shotguns, & deer rifles for the kids. My oldest is left handed & youngest right. They are VERY safe, shoot decent, can be passed down to either kid. If I lock my Sako .300 WSM in a vise, I can have dime size groups all day. The Handi will have 1-1.5" groups. I have only been reading this sight for about 3 years, & I learn something new every day. Certain handi's on average shoot better out of the box than others. I guess the 30-30 is a tack driver. I have mine on order, but that is another story.

Let us know what you buy.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2008, 04:59:26 PM »

I have seen Ditchdigger shoot so don't listen to him. He is just a bad with a bolt gun as a break barrel gun. I used to have a closet full of handies but have thinned them out, got tired of trying to make em shoot to my satisfaction. I do have a 44 mag that is o.k. with cast bullets like the 45-70 a 30-30 that I haven't played with all that much and a 357max that I am proud of so far. The thing with a handie is not will they shoot, but will they shoot the next time. Now don't get me wrong for some silly reason I still like to have one around. I suppose I like a break barrel. Now Ditchdigger is right they do take alot of time to fool with trying different loads and etc. I too have a loading bench full of differen powder and bullets from trying different loads. I seems most of my bolt guns will shoot most every thing I try well to very well.

bcp · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2008, 06:06:30 PM »

Given a bolt action rifle and a break open rifle of equal intrinsic accuracy, shooting from prone or bench, one shot for score (or distance from point of aim) the rifles will probably do equally well.

But for following shots the break open will have to be moved from shooting position to reload, then returned. The bolt action won't. The best group or score will then usually go to the bolt action.

Talking about low recoil rifles here, not something that recoils violently.

Bruce

Fred M · « **Reply #28 on:** February 16, 2008, 06:51:07 AM »

Quote.
If you want a very accurate single shot get a ruger#1

I have to agree with that. I have five falling block actions they all shoot under 3/4", any time all the time. While the two Handi's
forever show up with some hic ups and need baby sitting. But since I quit shooting them a lot they behave rather well.
Last fall I got two deer with the 257 R Handi no trouble.

With a lot of shooting mine loose tune rather quickly. That is underlug set back.

McLernon · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:48:29 AM »

All you have to do is check with the benchrest guys. They use single shot bolt action rfles because they lock-up consisitently.

Mc