Author Topic: 45/70 which powder? (Read 2411 times)

jhoutdoors · « **on:** February 16, 2008, 02:51:26 AM »

I'm loading a few 45/70's and I was wondering which powders do all of you prefer. I don't need any sizzling speed or elephant loads just looking to let the 45-70 do what it does best, leave big holes!! Thanks in advance.

Jason

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2008, 03:33:42 AM »

My favorite 45-70 load uses 28.0 grains of 2400 behind a 350 grain Hornady bullet....<><....

McLernon · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2008, 04:04:29 AM »

I won't use any powder that can be double loaded by accident. I use 350 gr Hornady's over 50 gr. on IMR-4064. It's at the top of Trapdoor levels.

Mc

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2008, 04:27:15 AM »

4198 and Reloader 7

Pharmboy · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2008, 04:34:47 AM »

I would use IMR4227 with a case almost full of powder with a Hornaday 300gr HP for fun. I would put the Barnes 300gr TSX for longer range hunting/shooting. This is basically the same loads for my 458 Socom with a little less powder. I only have one powder IMR4227 and load 22 Hornet to 35 Whelen with it. I am just getting started in the reloading world.

Pharmboy

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2008, 04:51:26 AM »

IMR3031 is my preferred powder for the .45-70 in fact it's about all I use.

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2008, 04:51:49 AM »

Varget works very well in most rifles cartridges.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:14:18 AM »

Pharmboy, "a case almost full of powder with a Hornaday 300gr HP for fun" using 4227 isn't a great idea. IMR doesn't even list 4227 loads for the .45-70 anymore. In any case, that amount of powder is approaching 60 grains. ...Not much fun........

4227 has very limited application in the 35 Whelen. There are much better powders available. It's just WAY too fast in this chambering.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:22:21 AM »

H4198 w/300gr bullets in the 22" barrel, H335 for 350gr bullets in the 32" barrel.

Tim

Pharmboy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:36:30 AM »

SmokinJoe,
I looked at my recipe and it says I stopped at 45gr. That must have looked almost full to me, that's a lot of powder compared to the Hornet. I have only shot this in my Ruger #3. The 35 whelen I found that I could use the .358 Hornaday Single Shot Pistol Bullet with IMR 4227. I shoot this out of a Ruger MII. I think I will start using other powders though. I'll have to take a trip to Oklahoma City so I can get some differnt powder. I use the IMR4227 for these:
222 Remington
22 Hornet
6.8 SPC
357/44 Bain and Davis
357 Mag, 357 Max
35 Whelen
44 Mag, 445 Super Mag
38-55 Winchester
45-70 Government
45 Colt
458 Socom

Pharmboy

jake2454 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2008, 06:06:00 AM »

i am playing with h335, h4198 and Reloader7.
for store bought bullets i use Hornady 300gr jhp and for home made i cast a 340 gr round nose flat point.
i have also used Goex FFG with lead bullets and am considering a test with American pioneer.

MS Mule · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2008, 06:25:37 AM »

My Handi 45/70 likes IMR 4198 with 300 Gr. Interlocks for hunting.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #12 on:** February 16, 2008, 06:27:50 AM »

...........................................Goex? Just a thought.

burntmuch · « **Reply #13 on:** February 16, 2008, 07:38:54 AM »

42 grains reloader 7 under 300 grain rem jhp

bishopgrandpa · « **Reply #14 on:** February 16, 2008, 07:53:11 AM »

Re-7, H332, Imr 4198.

cowboyup453 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:16:03 AM »

Quote from: kevthebassman on February 16, 2008, 06:27:50 AM

...........................................Goex? Just a thought.

I love the smoke just not the cleaning.

I like trail boss for plinking loads with 300-405 cast bullets.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:32:18 AM »

Quote from: cowboyup453 on February 16, 2008, 08:16:03 AM

Quote from: kevthebassman on February 16, 2008, 06:27:50 AM
...........................................Goex? Just a thought.

I love the smoke just not the cleaning.

Aw heck it ain't that bad! I will admit though that it is nice to be able to put off cleaning on those days when you just shot and drug a big critter over hill and mountain.

jake2454 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2008, 02:37:37 PM »

cleaning is the reason i am considering an American Pioneer experiment. the 45-70 is a hoot to shoot with black powder but cleanup is a concern.
i too have used 42 gr of Reloader 7 with hornady 300 gr jhp's. its a very nice round.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2008, 10:26:31 PM »

I haven't used it, but I hear that the American Pioneer powder is just a joke, and not even a good joke at that. None of the substitute powders I've tried (Pyrodex and 777) are significantly easier to clean than the real stuff, (all three require soap, water, and 5 minutes plus a light oiling after) and you can't let any of them sit without being cleaned, because they will ALL rust your bore.

I don't know about these new "miracle powders" they're bringing out that can be shot 10,000 times without cleaning, but I'll believe it when I see it.

unique · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2008, 05:00:19 AM »

Quote from: Pharmboy on February 16, 2008, 05:36:30 AM

SmokinJoe,
I looked at my recipe and it says I stopped at 45gr. That must have looked almost full to me, that's a lot of powder compared to the Hornet. I have only shot this in my Ruger #3. The 35 whelen I found that I could use the .358 Hornaday Single Shot Pistol Bullet with IMR 4227. I shoot this out of a Ruger MII. I think I will start using other powders though. I'll have to take a trip to Oklahoma City so I can get some differnt powder. I use the IMR4227 for these:

Pharmboy

Not for the faint of heart...

Pharmboy · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2008, 05:27:49 AM »

Unique,
Where did ya get the software to create that graph? It looks like I was pushing the envelope.

Pharmboy

unique · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2008, 06:03:03 AM »

Quote from: Pharmboy on February 17, 2008, 05:27:49 AM

Unique,
Where did ya get the software to create that graph? It looks like I was pushing the envelope.

Pharmboy

The program is called QuicklLOAD. I shoot 30gr IMR4227 with 340gr cast in 45-70 so I had an idea your pressure/velocity would be up there. I was a little concerned that someone less experienced might want to try your load in a Trapdoor. That would be bad.

One problem with the 45-70 is too much case capacity relative to smokeless powder (good for black powder) and IMR4227 is fine grained powder which exasperates this problem. I have experienced very extreme pressure/velocity profiles based upon where the powder is sitting in the case. For your load you are at 90% fill but still you may experience even higher pressures if your powder is back against the primer as opposed to front of case against the bullet.

Having said that, I tend to shoot lots of IMR4227 in 45-70 because it is just so plum accurate with cast bullets even with the extreme velocity dispersion shot-to-shot.

Unique

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** February 17, 2008, 06:05:27 AM »

Here's more on QL...

Tim

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

plumberroy · « **Reply #23 on:** February 17, 2008, 06:52:19 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on February 16, 2008, 04:51:26 AM

IMR3031 is my preferred powder for the .45-70 in fact it's about all I use.

I will second that!!
A heathy dose of IMR3031 behind a sierra 300 grain hollow point has put many venison steaks on my Table when I lived some where that allowed the use of a rifle
Roy

McLernon · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2008, 11:00:39 AM »

Triple Seven 40 gr.( by weight) and 500 gr pile-driver works. 0.1 compression.

Bang-----wait for a while------big arc and 'whop'.

Mc

jhoutdoors · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2008, 10:42:31 AM »

Thanks for all the advice, I'll pick up a couple of those suggested and keep everyone posted on the results!

Jason

JonnyC · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2008, 09:07:17 AM »

H322 with 405 gr. Remington. Holes touching at 100yds.

jake2454 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 01, 2008, 11:00:31 AM »

i finally got the chance to do a quick test of American Pioneer powder with my BC 45-70. it was very windy here today so it did cut my test a bit short. i tested Goex ffg, Pyrodex rs and American Pioneer ffg equivalent.
i used 340 gr RNFE bullets cast from pure linotype from a Lee mold. I indexed and sized all of the bullets using a Lee sizing die.
i used Hornady, Remington, and winchester once fired brass and CCI large rifle primers.
with it being as windy as it was i only shot six rounds of each. i do not have the means to clock muzzle velocity.
for the Goex and Pyrodex i used 70 grains and used pure bees wax cookies to insure that the powders were compress to about 1/16". for the American Pioneer i refrained from using cookies as their web site advised against it.
in the Remington brass i measured by volume and added as needed to allow for the 1/16" powder compression.....these loads weighed out from 53.7 to 54.2 grains by weight. Wnchester was from 53.6 to 54.2 grains by weight.
Hornady brass required 53.8 to 54.1 gr by weight. In all cases not allowing an air space and making sure of powder compression was the driving factor. the Hornady brass that i have is to the case shorter than the other 2 brands.
i shot in the side yard (which yields a range of 50 yards), standing using a gun stick as a rest with Williams fp series rear site and the Lyman 17a front site with an earl shaver insert. i cleaned the rifle after using each of the powders.
i did not expect much after reading some comments on the internet.
what i found was no noticeable difference in trajectory. all shots from all powders were within a 4 inch spread with the spread being mainly in the left to right direction.
the American pioneer powder was by far the easiest to clean and its recoil seemed to be a bit softer but only slightly.
i think this warrants a more comprehensive test.
i will try to get down to the property next week end where i can stretch the range out to 100 yards.

McLernon · « **Reply #28 on:** March 01, 2008, 12:32:34 PM »

I am trying 777. I use 40-43 gr by weight under a 500 gr. LCGC pile-driver. I have some 500 gr. LC bore-riders I would like to use but the amount of powder needed to ensure 0.1 inch compression seems allot and I am afraid to try them. They shoot very well with 5744 but I am switching to 777 for our May Buffalo competition. I really am not too comfortable using BP or BP subs as my reloading experience has always been with smokeless. I expect that by summer I will be a full BP convert(if I am still alive). Can someone tell me the volume in cubic inches of 70 gr of FFg BP. I still have not been able to mentally convert from weight to volume as I have never found a volume measuring device that makes any sense. I have been told that I can fill the case with powder and it will not significantly increase the pressure as allot of the BP will simply not get burnt. I know that in the old days some shooters would just pour out enough powder to fill the cupped palm of their hand and into the gun it went. All was well so long as the bullet got pushed hard down on top of the powder. If you did this with smokeless you'd be in the next world before you had a chance to repeat the error.

Any help would be appreciated.

Mc

MSP Ret · « **Reply #29 on:** March 01, 2008, 01:41:26 PM »

What you refer to in the cupped hand was an old method of determining the correct amount of black powder to use. I was dependent upon the size of the round ball bullet (and the granulation but that was never figured in). The round ball to be used, .32, .36, .40, .45, .50, etc. was placed in the flat on hand palm up, black powder was poured over the ball until the ball was just covered by the resulting inverted cone of black powder. That was considered the proper and a safe safe amount of powder for that caliber. I cannot speak for it's accuracy, safety, or value, only for the method....<><....