38 snub nose ammo

[Gohon]

Merle,  I haven't had a chance to do any more testing since shooting these three loads.  I do want to get some of the 135 grain Gold Dots and test them as they are suppose to be designed for use in a 2 inch snub nose.  Also I need to cook up the Hornady loads to +P velocity and see how they actually do.  Maybe next month after I get back from Colorado I can settle down and do some serious shooting.  Papa John over on the Marlin Owners site done some testing with different brands and loads.  If I can find it I'll copy and paste it here for you.  Even better, here is the link.  http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,31881.0.html

[Merle]

Merle,  I haven't had a chance to do any more testing since shooting these three loads.  I do want to get some of the 135 grain Gold Dots and test them as they are suppose to be designed for use in a 2 inch snub nose.  Also I need to cook up the Hornady loads to +P velocity and see how they actually do.  Maybe next month after I get back from Colorado I can settle down and do some serious shooting.  Papa John over on the Marlin Owners site done some testing with different brands and loads.  If I can find it I'll copy and paste it here for you.  Even better, here is the link.  http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,31881.0.html

Thanks for the link!

 

[LouisianaMan]

     I second Mikey's load recommendation: 200-grain LSWC over 3.8g Win 231 (if it will fit in your .38SPL chamber when crimped at crimp groove; if not, seat deeper and crimp over front shoulder--I reduced powder charge to 3.4g as a precaution). See my more-detailed post in Lead Bullets discussion. This load seems to shoot with authority, and it penetrated several inches into freshly-felled pine logs when I shot it. I have no fears that it will be stopped by heavy clothing, to include a "German Army overcoat" as some other posts allude to.
     With all of the concerns about HPs failing to function as designed at snub-nose velocities, or when plugged by clothing, I have decided to "cast" (pun intended) my lot with the heavy bullet/good penetration school of thought. With that being said, there's a lot of evidence that modern expanding bullets have gotten pretty darned good at functioning at low velocities. All modern ammo manufacturing facilities are turning out excellent ammo that should work generally very well with good bullet placement. . .and none are completely reliable if not well-placed.
     My personal concerns now focus more on reliability of function & bullet placement. The latter is largely based on fit of gun to shooter's hand, matching recoil & blast to shooter's ACTUAL capabilities, and minimizing muzzle flash to prevent major problems in night-firing in your home or near your car.
     When it's all said and done, the .38 SPL is a fine choice, and you should choose a readily available load that your wife (original post) can handle comfortably and shoot as well as possible. If she's confident, that's half the battle in a SD/HD situation. Bigger guns & more power = better chances, given equal bullet placement, of course. The .38 SPL has proved a very good compromise for millions over many years.

[HogSniper2]

All those 140 to 158 grain rounds would work fine. But, in my M36 snubbie, I carry a 110 grain hydra-shok JHP 'low-recoil' Personal Defense ammunition made by Federal.  I look at it this way.  I assume the good people at Federal Ammunition have the test knowledge to recommend that ammo for defensive purposes.  Besides, that little gun is definitely up close and personal, maybe 10 feet max.  At ten feet, with five rounds max, if it doesn't have some drastic effect on a perpetrator, you better grab your cell and dial 911 and hope a cruiser is nearby.

[SHOOTALL]

if ya got time to call on the cell , why not reload ? OR RUN LIKE H___ !

[bubbinator]

W/ 42 yrs. as a LEO I have carried lots of different weapons and loads. I reload and did the old HBWC reversed, SWCLHPs, and different JHPs.  SR4756 and Speer Defensive loads were my favorite.  But today with all the lawsuit happy idiots out there, I would not want to be before a Grand Jury defending my "home made killer bullets" in front of mostly clueless citizens.  That's why I would recommend, and carry myself, the CCI 135 grs. Gold Dot .38 +ps in my 2'' & 3" .38s.  They pass the FBI expansion criteria and come real close to 1000 fps from a 2" barrel!

[Mikey]

bubbinator:  the issue/concern of using 'home made ammo' or 'home reloads' and the possible attendant personal liability has surfaced a number of times but there have been no instances of anyone ever being held liable for shooting someone with anything other than factory loads.  Not even the famously fabulous Massad Ayoob, who writes more about these things than any two other people I have read, has provided any specific data or information on cases or citations in which a individual who used handloads in their own defense was ever held accountable or liable for using handloaded ammunition......... HTH.  Mikey.

[drdougrx]

Looking back at this thread caused me to have a look back into my ammo locker.  I have a ton of Fed 158gr SWCHP/hydrashocks +p -Nyclads!!!!  Love to do some testing on these!!!!  What do you'all think of these???

[canon6]

 drdougrx, that was my favorite load for the 2in 38.I had to carry one for awhile(Department rules) they were the only round I felt , even, good about working.      Doug

[drdougrx]

ty!

i liked them because they didn't damage like lead.  Even had'm in 9mm.

[SHOOTALL]

i can't remember the topic but i listed several court cases from an article written by Ayoob that ammo was a factor . One was a case of reloads used in a shooting where the wife commited suicide and due to a lack of powder burns the husban was convicted . Later a test of the ammo proved there would not have been powder burns , sorry i can't rember the other cases , but feel free to go back and look . The fact is that cases are documented and the problem is real in some courts .

[Nasty Jack]

also with a 2 inch bbl adding powder only adds flash !

Not true and a chronograph will prove it. Short barrel guns lose velocity, but heavier loads increase fps no matter what. If you're handloading, find some relatively fast burning powder. I was loading with HS6 and was getting unburned powder in the barrel.

158 gr. semi-wadcutter (SWC) or hollowpoint (JHP) in a +P load.

If they're wearing heavy winter clothing, shoot two or three times. 38 Spl. was standard issue law enforcement caliber for years. Don't believe those who claim it's not effective.

[SHOOTALL]

If you have a police supply store near check them out , we have 2 near home and they sell traded in ammo cheap . alot of 38spl rem and win 158 +P stuff , also 125 jhp 357 stuff

[Mikey]

OK, I just ran a penetration similar to the one Gohon ran with one gallon water jugs.  If you remember Gohon's results: the 129 gn hydra shock, the 158 gn LSWCHP and the other 158 gn lead slug all penetrated 4 one gallon jugs and all stopped against the back wall of the fourth jug. 

Gohon used one gallon plastic milk jugs and wrapped them with duct tape to keep the whole kit and kaboodle together.  I did the same but I gotta tellya it takes me a looooong time to drink 6 gallons of milk..........

Anyhow - filled all six gallon jugs, screwed the tops back on, taped the whole bunch together with a couple of lengths of duct tape, backed up 10' (defensive distance) and fired one round.  Once the jugs start leakin' they hain't no good for a follow-up shot.....

The load was a 200 gn cast semi-wadcutter over 3.8 gns of WW231, a factory load for the 200 gn bullet.  Velocity is listed at 770'/sec but from my M38 (2" snubbie) I doubt it's passin' 700'/sec by much, if at all. 

The bullet hit dead on the mark and penetrated clean through all six gallon jugs, and kept on going.  The first two jugs came apart at the inside handle seam - jug side, the third jug suffered a inside handle seam -jug side split, the fourth and fifth jugs had a couple of small holes in them and the 6th jug just had the pass-through.  All the screw caps remained in place.

Each one gallon jug measured 6" square at the bottom 1/2 and that's where the bullet penetrated - right through the lower portion of the Skim Milk label and the thickest part of the jugs.  The bullet penetrated straight through, exiting the back of the 6th jug at the same height of the bullet entrance through the 1st jug.  The table they were placed on was level. 

So, all in all, this one 38 Special 200 gn cast semi-wadcutter slug at probably only 700'/sec, passed clean through 3' of water (3 feet of water jugs that is), 12 plastic jug skins, two layers of duct tape, and kept on goin'.......

Good enough for me.  Mikey.

[tony212]

All this discussion of the right ammo for a snub nose revolver made me take a closer look at what I'm loading up with.  I normally carry a 70s vintage 2" Colt Cobra.  I don't like to use +P ammo in this old gun so I have been reloading Remington 125 grain jacketed soft points over 4.2 grains of 700X.  I thought these would make a pretty good self defense load until I did the water jug test, now I'm not so sure.  The 125 grain soft points completely penetrated 3 jugs and were recovered from the 4th with absolutely no expansion.  I decided to give my practice loads a go at the jugs as well.  My practice loads are 158 grain LSWC over 3.4 grains of 700X.  To my surprise they blew through 7 jugs and came to rest in the 8th, considerably more penetration than the soft points.  Now the big question.  Does this test tell me the soft points are better because they will give up more energy inside of an assailant? Or,  am I better off with the complete penetration of the LSWC?  To be honest I was surprised by the amount of penetration from the LSWCs. I'm kinda leaning towards them for defensive carry.  Let me know what you think
Tony212

[AtlLaw]

I would recommend, and carry myself, the CCI 135 grs. Gold Dot .38 +ps in my 2'' & 3" .38s.  They pass the FBI expansion criteria and come real close to 1000 fps from a 2" barrel!

This is interesting!     I carry, and have for 35 years, a S&W M49.  Had it Armaloyed whey back when that was somewhat popular.  But have never been a big .38 Spl. fan... Have you done any penetration tests, confirmed the velocity, that sort of thing?   

[SHOOTALL]

Is penetration thru. 4 foot of water good ?
At what point do you worry about people other than the one you shoot ?
Wasn't the 158 gr. lswhp the choice for just such reasons ?
I can say with confidence that if you approch a wounded deer and have a j frame with a 1.8 inch bbl. loaded with win. 158 LSWHP bullets and shoot it thru. the back of the neck where it joins the head or between the eyes it will dispatch the deer BUT you will not often get an exit wound !
For those who are getting ready to ask , because i don't like to waste meat with a slug gun or rifle and don't care to drape a deer with its head blown to bits over my shoulder for the walk back to the truck !

[Mikey]

Tony:  you said - "I'm kinda leaning towards them for defensive carry.  Let me know what you think".  I think it's a smart move.  I would rather have t&t penetration and the target leaking through two holes than just one.

SHOOTALL:  you said:  "Is penetration thru. 4 foot of water good?"  Yep, sure is.
At what point do you worry about people other than the one you shoot - ummmm, when they get in the way??
Wasn't the 158 gr. lswhp the choice for just such reasons.  The 158 gn lead swc bullet, hp or not, was the choice over the 158 gn round nose due to its ability for greater and more immediate incapacitation.  They (factories) just never got around to developing a 200 gn swc as the local/vocal move was to the lightweight hollowpointed stuff and the heavyweights fell into disfavour. 

Every finishing shot I have made with a 200 gn 38/357 slug has gone right through the skull and there is minimal leakage.  But buddy, I don't know where you hunt but in this day and age there is absolutely no dang way I would ever again drape a dead whitetail over my shoulder and expect to make it off the hunting field alive, whether I hunt private land or not.  Mikey.

[SHOOTALL]

mikey , we have lots of orange on lots , and if you saw what we have to bring deer thru. you might change your tune .
Over penitration is a real problem , I have a cousin working on just such problems in federal buildings , they are making " HARD" walls and shooting lanes . I hope I am not around when you are stressed out enough to fire a weapon in self defence as you may not be aware of someone being in the way . As far as the choice of the hp over the solid , it was considered inhumane for years to use the HP . When it could be justifyed as a safer round it came into use , as a side did you know we now use hp ammo in the M-16 ? it is allowed as it enhances accy. not for more destruction .
the 200 gr rn bullet , the British made millions and we know the test alot.
Again the move to lighter faster , easier to carry more proves that the 200 gr. bullet was not the best choice . IMHO ! Besides what good is 2 holes in an attacker if he stops with one ? Just more mess to clean up . You really don't need a blood trail , do ya ?

[Savage]

Shootall,
Allthough modern expanding bullets are very reliable, often expansion comes at the expense of adequate penetration. Given the choice between reliable penetration and expansion with "Maybe" adequate penetration, I'll cast my lot with the former. I like heavy for caliber bullets with a large meplat like the SWC bullets. Just my preference, I'm not selling anything.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

i don't disagree with what a bullet will do as a rule but and its a big but one must realize that over penitration is a real problem and has/should be addressed before the shooting starts .

[Savage]

Some collateral damage is acceptable  At least that's what my DI said! Seriously, I know overpenetration can be a problem in some situations. Millions of our dollars are being spent to address this (problem?) The primary concern in a shoot should be to stop the aggression, everything else, including overpenetration must remain secondary. Only my wife and I reside in my home, so overpenetration presents little problem here. If it were, I'd rely on something like an AR. Unfortunately, can't carry one very well on the street, so I'll have to rely on a handgun of some sort to protect me and mine. As a handgun is not much of stopper to begin with, I want something that is likely to penetrate deep enough under most conditions to put a hole in something vital. I carry expanding ammo in my larger caliber pistols where I can have a heavy expanding bullet. For something like the .38 in a snubbie it's a heavy LSWC for reliable penetration at the lower velocities.
Still not trying to convince anyone of anything, just my opinion.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

hope your DI can get you out of paying for a wrongful injury or death .

[Savage]

Odds are, I'll never have to worry about it. If I do, I'll worry about survival first and deal with everything else after the fact.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

good luck !

[Nasty Jack]

I seriously worry about what runs through the heads of some of the people who post on "self defense / concealed carry" forums.

Read James Thurber's "Walter Mitty" -- It's a short story. You can probaby do it in one sitting.

[Savage]

Shootall,
Thanks, I need all the luck I can get!
If you are really worried about shoot thrus, the idea of misses must drive you nuts! Don't have the exact numbers, but statistically speaking for every hit in a gun fight there are about 3 misses. Those are the ones I'd be worried about! 
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

Savage , when taking some of the courses for personal protection we were told the FBI figures were 7 misses per hit for police . The stress level would account for this and no negative intent .
The hit ratio for private citizens with experience was 4-5 to 1 . The better score we were told was because some police departments require min pratice and some officers view the gun as a tool and seldom pratice where many gun owners view it as recreation and pratice . You said missed shots must scare me , yes they do . I would only shoot if i could not find a way to remove myself from the fear of being killed or hurt . I also would consider the place . In a crowded mall vs. home alone etc. . In the home it might make sense to wait and ambush the attacker knowing where to shoot vs. going on a hunt and destroy mission . In a mall you might just have to make a sacrifice to save more . My point one should consider the out comes and select the best ammo . To be honest if I am in a position where shooting another human is a possibility i would be past scared most likely approaching down right fear ! Which is good , fear is what opens our senses to max. level and helps us survive .
I read what you offered and see the use of heavy for cal. bullets might have merit in some cases (  the BRITISH proved that ). But in the event you or I have to shoot we will be judged to the standard of what would a prudent person do in the same situation . I would like to say i had picked my ammo along the same lines as police and FBI. not some home brewed round that is better ( which might mean kills better ) not stops better .

please don't take offence

[Savage]

Shootall,
Nooooooo, offense taken! Just a nice civil discussion between most likely, two like minded souls. All you say is true about ammo choices. I try to use the best most effective ammo available to me for it's intended purpose. In my LE days I didn't have a lot of choices for duty ammo. I pretty much carry the same type of ammo now. I rarely carry a .38 snub, but if I did, I'd go with the heaviest LSWC I could find in a factory loading. Again just personal preference. I don't think handloads would be much of an issue, but carry factory loads "just in case".
Stay Safe!
Savage

[Kragman71]

The Speer 135 grain Gold Dot bullet,in their Super Gold Dot cartridge is especially designed for "snubbies"
A year ago,the "American Rifleman"praised it,as the cartridge of the year.
That's what I keep in my Model 36.
I am also experimenting with the Speer 145 Grain HBWC bullet with 3 grains of Bullseye.
Frank