Is there a "rule of thumb" for adding buffer?

[shotgunner]

I would like to develop some hunting loads that use powdered plastic buffering. Is it possible to reduce the powder charge and add the buffer without a dangerous rise in pressure? I have a couple of ideas for 410 3" and 28 gauge upland loads, maybe 20 gauge as well. I do not have an data that contains info on buffer. Shotgunner

[Graybeard]

You're treading dangerous ground when you add buffer but don't have a pressure tested receipe. It's not really quite as easy as adding weight of buffer to weight of shot and using that as your load and working up a powder charge from it as I understand it. I've messed around with it a little but only in 12 gauge never in the really little ones.

Both .410 and 28 run at much higher average pressures than the 12 and 20 already so doing things to increase pressures can really quickly run you too high.

I honestly do not know how to determine what's right. BUT if I were personally gonna do it here is what I'd do. IT IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION FOR YOU TO DO IT!

I'd look thru the books and find the recipe that gave the absolute lowest possible chamber pressure as given in the loading manuals. I'd use that and only that load so that I had as large a margin of safety as possible. Then I'd proceed carefully loading up a very few and trying them to see if anything unusual happened before moving forward with mass loading. I'd also make darn sure I ran them thru a chrono to see how much velocity increased over the book velocity as velocity is a good indicator of pressure and if it took too big a jump I'd back down more with the powder or shot or both as needed. That's what I'd do what you do is your call and your responsibility.

[shotgunner]

Greybeard

That was a good answer, it shows you have common since and experience. I was planning on using the chronograph. I hunt grouse with a beautiful Winchester model 42 Skeet with a solid rib. I would never take a chance of damaging it. I have a couple of bags of Remington 3" wads, which are no longer available. I have used plated shot with pretty good results. It is a situation where I can use all the improvement that I can get. I think I am interested in it because I have not seen it done by anyone else. I then thought that I might find good hunting loads for the other small gauges. It must be February as I am keeping busy with all kinds of loading projects. I am going to look into the Ballistic Products information and see if they have any pressure tested data. I will pass it along if I find it. Shotgunner

[jeager106]

The payload in the little bores is so small you will gain nothing in the wa of improved patterns even with buffer.
Remember, a shotshell is a "system" of components. Buffer may help with certain kinds of loads.
I use a lot of buffer in the 12 bore.
Lots of room, lots of published data. I get #1, #2, #3, buckshot loads that pattern inside a 20 inch circle at 40 yards.
I also get 94% patterns on average with #2, #3, #6, #5, #4, plain and nickel lead shot at 40 yards with dense center cores.
(turkey koads)
I use new primed hulls, add the buffer with a vibrating tool. This is absolutely essential to fill ALL the air spaces between the pellets and vibrating is the ONLY way to do this.
I use a .665 choke by Primos.
You'll go nuts trying to buffer the 11/16 .410 loads. You have nothing to work with in the rat gauges, no room and worse of all no proper components.
I use special heavy wads for tungsten shot becasue they protect the lead better than any wad made for lead.
I've gotten killing patterns to 60s yard with #3 buck, but these are specialty loads for varmints, not quail or rabbits.
Nor Deer. The #3 and #4  buck loose too much gee whiz to try on deer past 30 yards.

[SHOOTALL]

the best rule of thumb for All RELOADING follow a good reloading BOOK !

[shotgunner]

I read the other day that someone else has had the same idea. There are now commercial small gauge loads with buffer. I was sure it was possible and I am still sure that it would work and work well, too bad I didn't have the resources to do it myself. I am not sure what the factory loads cost, but I will try a box and see what it does. Shotgunner

[jeager106]

Factory loaded shoshells with buffer are J U N K.
Might be a whole lot better off to shoot hard shot reloads.
My number 6 shot of 1 5.8 ox. "turkey" loads AVERAGE 96% inside a 30 inch circle with a strong chore.
My buck loads AVERAGE all shot inside 20 inches at 40 yards and one #2 and #3 buck load will give me 17 inches at 40, killing varmintpatterns to 60 yards.
There are specialized techniques for loading buffered shot.
Use the proper techniques or waste time, money, getting zero return.

[shotgunner]

Jeager

I can not agree with you on this. The 3" 410 has more shot up against the barrel then any load made. I use copper plated 7 1/2s and the old Remington 3" wads. Yes, pressure tested data is what I am looking for, which is why I asked. I am sure it is possible to improve the 3" 410 and make it into a workable hunting load. If you can shoot a solid rib Winchester 42 Skeet gun makes a wonderful grouse and woodcock gun, as well as a gun for quail and pheasants over a pointing dog. Your magnum 12 gauge and buckshot loads are fine, I have done some of that myself, but they are not what I am looking for here. At some point I will find the data I am looking for. Shotgunner

[huntducks]

lead reloads are very foregiving and dropping powder and shot throught bushing and or charge bar is not rocket science it can be off powder from .3 to .5 grs per drop and 5-10 pellets easy adding a few grains of buffer means zip, I have been buffering loads all the way back to the mid to late 60's started with corn meal before there where any commercial produced buffers.

What are the reasons for buffers so shot does not deform during setback at firing nothing more sure it means better patterns because non round lead does not fly as straight as round lead.

The harder the shot 6% anno. will deform very little vs say 4% or 2% so you would get better patterns with harder shot vs softer that's the route I would go vs buffer in smaller gauges.

[shotgunner]

Thanks for the reply, you and Greybeard have offered common sense advise. Others would like to look like experts by disagreeing with everything. I realize that a high performance 410 load is an unusual idea, which is why I am interested in it. I did buy an 870 that I expect to work on some loads with. I will let you guys know if I find something that works, Shotgunner

[huntducks]

shotgunner

The biggest draw back with HP loads out of a 410 is wads or lack of a good selection is very limited.

Good luck

[shotgunner]

I bought several bags of the old Remington 3" wads a few years ago. They really help. From what I have seen the new 3" factory shells have 2 1/2" wads in them. Shotgun

[Froghunter]

Shotgunner,
I'm with you on the buffering in the 410 bore, but I have had very good luck with reloading 2 1/2 WW AAHS hulls, wads, and, hard magmun #8.  I hunt cottontail rabbits behind beagles and game shots are close. I try to limit my shots 5-20 yards. I have worked on my little NEF 410 single shot. I have reamed a long forcing cone in the gun and I have reamed the choke out to .410". I do not plan to hunt the woodcock, but will harvest one if one presents it's self.
Here is a good read:
http://www.fourten.org.uk/gram_crak-r1.pdf
This is my little gun:
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,221570.msg1099213238.html#msg1099213238
I understand this is and old post and would like and update if there is any.
Thanks!
Froghunter
 
 

[shotgunner]

This is something I would still like to see developed. Maybe I should write to Tom Rostor, see if he would take it on. Maybe if he thought it was his idea he would do it. Shotgunner