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Author Topic: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?  (Read 5894 times)

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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2008, 11:15:51 AM »
Yes, great idea!  I was thinking along those lines for a piece of tubing.  The conduit should be perfect though.  Now,...if I could find a piece of brass 3" long, with a dia .474 and rimmed,.....Oh sorry.



Thanks again Tim,

Jerry
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2008, 07:59:34 AM »
Decided last night early this morning, that I was looking at this all wrong.  I've been treating it like a 45lc/454.  Then it occurred to think of it as a 454-45/70.  That is as an undersized 45-70.  This has totally simplified this.  And instead of trying to "iron out" them wrinkles caused by the 454 sizer with the 45lcFCD, I fooled with the 45/70 FCD some more.  I can actually crimp down to .459 outside diameter at the crimp. :o  This is without any spacers or shims. :)  Also since the brass is a tad longer than 45/70 the crimp is also longer.  Hopefully this will negate some of the long jump to the lands,by holding on a little tighter.  Got some of the 405 grainers sized down to .454 and a full case of 2fg Cleanshot.  Seated it only two lube grooves and put this tremendous crimp on it.  Looks like a winner.  Got to get outside and try it.  If not today then tomorrow for sure.  I also loaded some with the H4198.  Curious about full burn of powder, still.

So now I'm doing all steps of loading with a single set of 45/70 dies.  Fire forming set up as well.  The sizer die knocks out the primer, the flaring die, while set for a minimal flare on already fired brass, makes a perfect "step" in a once fired 444 marlin, that allows the bullets I'm using to blow out the brass, to seat right to crimp groove and eliminates alot of the bulge I was getting with the 45lc/454 flaring dies.  Also keeps the brass more uniform because the bullet isn't sizing the case like I was forcing it to do the other way.  (I was getting lot of runout or course,but I figured i was going to be fire forming it out anyway.)   Followed up with the 45/70 FCD and viola.  It chambers slick as should be.

A question that remains is should I then use the 45/70 full length sizing die to size and deprime the fire formed brass?  It does size the fired(45lc/410 barrel) brass somewhat.  I'm not sure if I want to keep working it so much.  It is just barely sizing but enough to shine it, without lube.   ???

Baby steps....



Jerry
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2008, 08:10:16 AM »
As long as the brass chambers a round and the case has sufficient neck tension to seat and then crimp, I'd not FL size the brass at all, but you probably need to partial size it to get the neck tension you need. ;)

Tim
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2008, 01:21:29 PM »
 ;D ;D

That crimp made a difference.  Got 1583 fps with the 2fg Cleanshot+405 gr LFN.  Got in the 1860's again with the H4198 but with the 405 gr LFN.  Round ejected fine, full powder burn, but slight crater, I think, of primer.  The primer doesn't look flattened at all.  So now its back to the loading bench for some BP sub loading, and we'll see what kind of accuracy I can find.  Power level with the BP sub is right where I wanted to be.


JerryKo
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2008, 01:33:15 PM »
 ;D
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2008, 06:04:16 PM »
Ok here is the small beast.  I decided just for the heck to try long.  Full case 2fg Cleanshot+fiberwad to compress.  The other case is a 444 with flare to seat 250gr xtp to fireform brass to 45/410 chamber.  Sorry about the quality of pics.  It's the best I can do with my camera phone. :-[

Tomorrows project is to fire the 405's for accuracy.  Then I have to finish fireforming the remainder of my cases.

Thanks for looking. ;)
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2008, 09:01:08 AM »
I got the fire forming down good now.  All cases are now formed. I just need to trim ever so slightly to square them up.  The long 405's I loaded with BP sub didn't shoot so good.  I'll try seating  a little deeper.  At least now I can load up 4 different loads of five.


JerryKo
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Offline Saloon slug

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2008, 10:46:02 AM »
Jerry
Do you have access to real BP?
This sounds like a really cool BP express round. I am looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.

Out of curiosity I went to mountain molds site and played with their online mold calculator. With the  1/16 twist of your bbl and .454cal bullets the longest bullet OAL that will stabilize is 1.93". The longest their calculator would give is a 650 grain pill at just over 1.6" in length. If you can get enough BP ( or substitute) in the case to get the velocity to around 1200fps with a 500 grain pill it would be one heck of a long range BPC project.

I know probably not what you are looking for but it would be fun to try once or twice.
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2008, 12:57:28 AM »
Quote from: Saloon slug on March 10, 2008, 10:46:02 AM
Jerry
Do you have access to real BP?
This sounds like a really cool BP express round. I am looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.

Out of curiosity I went to mountain molds site and played with their online mold calculator. With the  1/16 twist of your bbl and .454cal bullets the longest bullet OAL that will stabilize is 1.93". The longest their calculator would give is a 650 grain pill at just over 1.6" in length. If you can get enough BP ( or substitute) in the case to get the velocity to around 1200fps with a 500 grain pill it would be one heck of a long range BPC project.

I know probably not what you are looking for but it would be fun to try once or twice.

Yes it sounds possible.  When I get some 500 grainers(45-120 ;D) I'll be sure to resize some and run them out the bore with some 2fg wholly black.  If everything looks ok, might even try some 3fg.  I was liking the longer bullets to try to fill some of the void between the mouth of the case and the lands, but this has not proved accurate.  My H4198 loads w/405 FN seated two lube grooves were shooting a lot better than the ones seated way long.  Of course the Cleanshot may not be giving good results tho. I'm trying a few more ideas, and will post when appropriate.  Thanks for the info on the twist.


Jerry
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2008, 01:51:40 PM »
Weather has not been good for shooting.  I have found that best accuracy so far has been between 1300-1500fps with the 405 grainers and H4198.  I keep getting a flyer that opens up everyone of my test groups.  I have had several groups under .75 at 25yds, but then a flyer will put the group over 1 1/2. ??? 

I also tried a load that reduced my lowest starting load by 1.5 grains and seated all the way to the crimp groove.  I went from 1280fps to over 1500fps but it buldged the cases at the head a little more than I am comfortable with.  Group was about the same as others in that velocity range. I have seen this buldge before in 357mag handi.  Primers are not flattened or anything but a visible buldge is evident. 

Sorry I haven't found anything concrete to post.  I have a few more loads to try and then I'll try some lower weight jacketed bullets.


JerryKo
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Offline Saloon slug

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2008, 05:55:06 PM »
I haven't played with Cleanshot so I wouldn't know what to expect from it. I have shot a decent amount of Pyrodex and about half a can of Goex( hard to come by real black in these parts). What is the alloy you are using in the Cleanshot load?
 This is a cool project and I look forward to seeing how it turns out.
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2008, 12:46:14 AM »
Cleanshot is basically American Pioneer Powder.  It was bought out by APP and renamed.  At least that is what I found out last year when I came across it and asked the store owner to make a deal on it and I bought what he had left for $7 a pound. :)  It has given clover leaf groups with my iron sighted Browning 1886 45/70 at 50 yds, but that is not a good comparison because the 45/410 I still cannot touch the lands with any bullet I have tried.

The alloy is "Lasercast" factory made 405 grain Flat nose, that I bought from Cableas.  I just run it thru two sizing dies ,"Lee" products, to get it from .459 to .454.  It is a hard cast bullet.  I have been lubricating with Lee liquid alox after the sizing, although the factory applied lube is still full in the grooves after the two sizing steps.  I have not had any leading problems up to this point.  I clean with  five passes of a brush followed by dry patches between groups and then clean with Hoppes Elite at home and has been quick to come fully clean in just a few cycles.

I haven't used the softer Remmys because when I went to order they have an item or two that I also want on back order and can't seem to get everything I want on one order so I've been waiting.  Beartooth has a very long backlog and hoped to be done with this project by then.  I only have a couple more weeks to work this out and then Turkey season prep will be taking up most of my free time.  I also have a LEE hollow based mould that I would like to try.  It is also for 45/70 but my wife hates when I "fire up" the furnace to cast.  Even if I take it outside. :-[  So i have been putting that off as well.

I 've been going at this with what I have on hand and it has been fun.  I just wish I had some better results to post. :)

JerryKo
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Offline myarmor

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2008, 11:55:04 AM »
Jerry I have been following your thread and love it. There is some good info here that I have been wanting to give a try, but as many of us here are the projects always keep a com'n and keep me from delving into it myself.
Thanks and keep it coming....


-Aaron
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Offline Saloon slug

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2008, 12:53:15 PM »
For some softer bullets give these guys a try. http://www.montanabulletworks.com/ I have talked to several people that had good results with them and they are all happy with their service.

By sizing them down I don't think you are having a problem with the bullets not bumping up. My one thought is that you may be making the lube grooves to shallow and not able to hold enough lube. But then again the barrel isn't that long so it shouldn't be a big issue.
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2008, 04:38:17 PM »
I'll give them a look.  I am using the liquid alox lube which completely covers the entire bullet.  I have been unable to recover a slug yet. They just keep going and going. :DI would like to see what's going on if anything with the lubes.



Jerry
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2008, 04:54:28 AM »
Finally getting another chance to shoot today.  I'll be firing 3 loads of H4198 and the 250 SST ML jacketed.  Book values should be breaking the 2k mark.  I hope accuracy is there.
I'll post results tonight!


JerryKo
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2008, 01:38:44 PM »
Sorry guys,  It was a no go.  I failed to fully crimp and ended up with only 1300 fps and a barrel full of powder. :-[  I'll get a better crimp tonight and try again for tomorrow.  BTW I am trying BLC2 instead of the H4198.  Close to same velocity  @ lower pressures.  At least according to book values.

Got to shoot the 45-120 tho.  Full case of Cleanshot 2fg and 405 grain laser cast broke the 1900fps mark.  Felt pretty good and clover leafed at 25.  Needs resighted, but not today.  Got 1800's with recommended XMP-5744 charges.  What a hoot! ;D



JerryKo
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2008, 01:52:21 PM »
Jerry, if you can, weigh a fired case, then fill it with water to overfilling and weigh it again, then post the water only weight and the COL and I'll run it thru QuickLoad to see what powder looks good. ;)

Tim
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2008, 01:58:26 PM »
Keep the info. coming, I'm planning on trying the same thing. MN being a shotgun only in the southern part of the state, I would like to find a load that is low recoil, but more potent than the regular .410 slugs for my daughter.
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2008, 02:06:45 PM »
Quote from: quickdtoo on March 24, 2008, 01:52:21 PM
Jerry, if you can, weigh a fired case, then fill it with water to overfilling and weigh it again, then post the water only weight and the COL and I'll run it thru QuickLoad to see what powder looks good. ;)

Tim

Thanks Tim.  That would be 75 grains of water.  COL is 2.194 inches. ;)
Jerry
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2008, 02:28:46 PM »
That's a little short, .444 brass is 2.225" long.  ???

Tim
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2008, 02:32:40 PM »
It shortens up a good bit to go from 430 to 454. :o  It is actually now .473 outside at the mouth and tapers down to the head.

Jerry ;)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2008, 02:38:46 PM »
What's the case length?
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2008, 02:43:50 PM »
Oh... well I guess it is the 2.194 inches.  Measure length of fired case from headstamp to mouth.  It is shorter than when I started out because of the increase in diameter from 444 chamber to 45 chamber.  Unless I'm not understanding it right.

Jerry
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2008, 02:44:54 PM »
COL = Cartridge Overall Length, length of seated bullet and cartridge.  ;)

Do you have any Reloder 7? If not what powders do ya have?

Tim
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2008, 02:59:48 PM »
 :-[Sorry got the boys in the tub and trying to keep the water in the tub. :D

That would depend on which bullet I'm using.

250 SST  2.716

405 GR LFN  2.868 

200 GR SWC  2.542 

Powders,  other than the above, trail boss, h110, sr4759,imr 3031,imr 4064, RL22, H414, imr 4007ssc,700x,red dot,imr 4227

jErrY
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2008, 03:52:59 PM »
Looks like the IMR4227 is the best of your powders, check your PMs.  ;)

Tim
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2008, 08:39:23 AM »
Thanks Tim,  I tried the IMR-4227 and it gave good burning results with both normal and excessive crimps.  Looks like a restart is in order.  I guess there is something to the rocket science part of reloading that makes a program like that very useful.  Saves a lot of powder too. :D

Jerry
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Offline JerryKo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2008, 10:10:33 AM »
Finally made somemore progress with the 250 gr SST bullet.  I think I have reached as close to accuracy as I can expect with this at 25yds.  Today I managed a 4 shot .75" group.  Three where literally a hole of 5/8" diameter.  This is about the best load that I'm consistently under the inch mark at 25.  So I think with what time I have left I will finally move out to the 50yd mark and see if it holds up.  Thanks to Tim, I switched powders to IMR-4227,  and I started seeing alot more consistant groups.  I also started only shooting no more than two shots before allowing a brief cool down.  The barrel is not getting real hot but I kept throwing the third shot for whatever reason.  This brief time has helped my groups.

So here I stand,a rabbit-squirrel shotgun, a decent 250 gr smokeless Jacketed load, and a thunderous 405gr lead BP sub load, which I feel can be used to the 50 yd mark.  The purpose of this project was just that.  Short range anything you want to eat gun.  I know there a alot more ways to skin a cat, but I picked probably the funnest and hardest way.  My tests at 50 hopefully will prove this as my personal success.  But another day at the range is in order to find out.

I'm sure someone one day will post a 45LC load that shoots the same or smaller group. :D

I will type up my procedure to get to this point soon, but I'm not ready to post any loads or not sure if I will.  I do not want to be the cause for any unforeseen injuries.  These case has had strange visible signs of higher pressure, none of which could be told by primer, or sticky cases.  I have had some severely buldged cases that have ejected just fine, and the primers showed no evidence of flattening at all, but I certainly exceeded the case pressure.  If there is an experienced wildcatter here maybe they can put this to rest.  But for a blackpowder cartridge ,I think it could be safe and fun.

Thanks for the interest, and support thru this.  It was a bit more demanding than I had forseen, but again, it was fun.  Good luck to others who are trying this, or using the 410 brass hulls for slugs.  Let us know how it goes.


Jerry ;)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .410/45LC barrel and slug ?
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2008, 10:19:15 AM »
Jerry, since you're basically working in no man's land here with no published data or pressure testing, I would prefer you don't post data.  ;)

Thx,

Tim
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