Need Help On 45/70 Barrel Loads!

[zzzzero]

I have a Contender with a 12" Hunter barrel with muzzle brake. i've tried just about  all the listed powder bullet combo listed in my reloading manuals, and i know with the contender you are supposed to use the trapdoor data, and have not been able to get this to group for beans at 50 yds. i am new to this forum and this my first post. after reading some of the post here i see that maybe i need to free float my forearm and maybe get rid of the muzzle brake. any thoughts and recomendations. TIA.
  Rick

[PJ]

Welcome,zzzzero I don't know if I'll be much help just got my 45-70 Encore barrel today.I did have a Super-16 45-70 contender barrel but,I got the Encore bug and sold it :cry: But that's ok got me a 16 1/4" barrel now.Several thing come to mind.....
#1...Have you shot a Contender before..?
#2...Free-floating will help just use some black tape folded several times and place it between the forend and barrel cut a hole in the tape push the forend screws in and screw the forend on.*Note if this works you can replace the tape with nylon washers*
#3...Practice,practice,and practice shooting.
#4..I don't like muzzel brakes on any barrels if you need one it's to big for you to handle.*note*- This is just my opinion.
#5...I would sale the 12" barrel and get at least a 14" tube or better yet get a 16 1/4" barrel. If you cut off the brake on the 12" tube you will have about a 10" 45-70 Not my idea of fun.This is also my opinion

[zzzzero]

Thanks for the help pj. i also was looking down the breach end of the barrel and it looks like there is no leade or throat. i have noticed that i have to seat my cast 300grn. and 405grn bullets deeper than normal. are all the 45/70 barrels like this from TC or is mine just a Lemon that got away? should i send it back to TC? TIA. i've had this set-up since 1991 and have not really shot it that much, but i do use a pistol rest when i shoot it. it came with no sights so i have 1.25-4x scope on it.
   Rick

[MePlat]

That is the way the throat is.  Seat for it and don't worry about it.  Start low and work up. You will be alright.

[PJ]

Hey,now I think I know your problem..!  If you have a brake on that barrel "cast bullet's" just don't work at least that is what I was told.Don't send it in to T/C just yet.If not me one of us will help you to get that barrel to shoot.I have yet to see a factory barrel that would not shoot.I used to be the guy that would buy nothing but Custom barrel's.Now I know better I'll save my hard earned money and buy 2 or 3 barrels for the price of one Custom barrel.Oh and take that scope off and check the base and make sure that is not the problem.#1 thing to do is take all the mounting screws out.Put in one at a time and just snug one screw and see if the base moves.If it does grind down that screw untill it will hold the base tight.That that screw out and do the next and so on.After you do that then you can lock-tite them all down.

[Hawkeye]

I have the 14" w/break and love it. I load 37grns of IMR4198 behind a 300grn Sierra Jacketed Hollow Point. I also use the 300 Remington JHP.
Not sure on the velocity. I would start with about 35grns and go from there. I took two deer with it last year. It is pretty loud but the recoil from the 300grn and 350grn bullets are not bad. :eek:
I will include a link for 45-70 loads in all powders and bullets.
My 14" w/break is shooting about 1.5" at 100yds from sandbags. It has a Redfield 4x scope. Sure is a fun heavy timber/brush deer rig.
Good luck with yours.

Mike

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570tc.htm

[Jeff Vicars]

I have the 12" Hunter barrel in 45-70 also. It will shoot under 1" at 100 yards with Winchester 300 grain factory loads. I can almost handload to the same precision using Reloader 7. What size groups are you shooting?

[zzzzero]

Hawkeye,
               Thanks for the re-loading data but when i spoke to the people at TC when i first got the barrel to see about loading recomendations i was told to only use the Trapdoor re-loading data in re-loading manuals. those charges seem a little high. i am currently using XMP-5744 in trying to work up a load for cast bullets for this as you do not need to use a filler or wad over the powder charge with this powder. this powder has given me good results in my other 45/70's using cast bullets. as for group size, for cast bullets is about 4-5" at 50yds. and jacketed bullets run about 2-3" at 50yds.so what i need to know is is the muzzle brake affecting the accuracy of my cast bullets loads? my bullets are cast pretty hard using w/w and foundry type plus i quench them in a bucket of cold water as soon as they come out of the mold so they are pretty hard. my load was 25grns. of XMP-5744 300grn.RCBS F/N Fed 215 primer. according to Accurate Arms 2002 re-loaders guide 31.0grns is max for a 300grn cast bullet. so i guess what i need to do is to free float the forearm and up my charges to 31grns. and see what happens. won't be able to get to the range until this week end but will post re-sults and photos. by the way, what is the best way to post photos here? again thanks to everyone here for all your help.
 Rick

[zzzzero]

Well, finally got to the range yesterday. best group at 50yds. was 3.150" with the worst at 3.872" that is with a RCBS 300grn. cast bullet using xmp-5744. really getting dissapointed trying to get this caliber to shoot. called Thompson Contender today and asked the tech that i spoke with if the muzzle brake on the barrel was affecting accuracy in this barrel using cast bullets and he stated that they only tested this caliber using jacketed 300grn. and 405grn. bullets. so i guess i have to resolve myself to shooting jacketed bullets out of this or trade or sell this and get another caliber barrel. again i want to thank everyone here for their help.
  Rick  

[Hawkeye]

ZZZZero, my loads are mid range loads, right out of the Hornady Reolading book for the Contender. My partner shoots much heavier loads that these in his Contender and shows no signs of high pressure. I'm not sure what hardness your cast bullets are but I have to use gas checks on my cast bullets to get good accuracy from my .45LC. The loads I was using was burning away the base of the cast bullets and I was gettign terrible groups. Gas checked them and the groups decreased in size.
I have only shot jacketed bullets in my 45-70 so I can say what your problems might be. I'm going to buy some cast bullets soon for it from a guy I buy all of my other cast bullets from in KS. I don't think I can improve on my groups with cast but I wanted some for hog hunting to get complete penetration with. I had a couple of the jacketed 300 grn not exit, but did stop the hog within in a few feet of where it was hit. Good luck.

Mike

[outlawsix]

Had the same problem a while back with a custom 45-70 barrel and cast bullets. My bullets are .459 405 gr 21-22 bhn. What I found was if I pushed them to hard the 1-14" twist of the barrel would actually strip some of the lead off and the groups looked more like a pattern from a shot gun. I use RL-7 was pushing them with 40 grains and couldn't hit a thing. Backed the loads down to 38 grains now I can hit a paper plate at 200 yds no problem. Granted they aren't the flatest shooting rounds but weighing as much as they do they still hit with athority. Back your loads off some and see if this helps.

[Dave2of5]

zzzzzero,

Don't know if I can help any, but I do agree with the guys here that you should be able to get that barrel to shoot. I also agree with the advice on Reloader 7 powder. I just switched to it and have seen significant improvement in groupings. While I think the traped door loads are a little light they should work. In the past I used a book that I bought that specifically speaks to reloading for the Contender pistol.

I wouldn't try to stoke that 12" barrel to hot as you will more that likely be wasting your time. The muzzle brake would be a real must if you ever plan on shooting big heavy bullets and pushing them fairly hard.

My T/C Contender has a custom barrel from SSK that I bought before T/C ever considered chambering the 45-70 in the Contender. It is a 14" nonported barrel. I had a discussion with JD and the folk at SSK at that time and they told me if I could handle reasonable recoil and was planning on shooting the lighter bullets (300-350 Gr) I should probably save my money on the porting, however if I were going to shoot the bigger, heavier bullets by all means port it - it will be easier on the gun.

As far as loads go I am using Reloader 7 with 325 Gr Gascheck bullets that are 'patched' with plumbers tape. Results so far seem to be good. I've got more testing to do before I take it to the field for hunting. I have had very little trouble getting my gun to group with almost any load I tried. My bigger problems have been with scopes and mounts. Earlier on when I first got this barrel I was trashing scopes and base fairly often. I learned to buy quality components and haven't had any trouble since. Make absolutely certain that your scope hardware is secure beyond any doubt. Scope associated problems were the only reasons that led to my barrel not grouping.

Have fun with your gun. VERY FEW guns can compare to the performance and versitility that is capable of the package that you have. It's a great setup.

Dave

[38-40]

zzzzero,
  I assume your trigger pull is decent enough to allow good shooting and that the recoil has not gotten to you.  If it has the remedy is to shoot very light loads in your gun, I have used 10 grains of Unique, till you make friends with your gun again.  If the above doesn't apply then send your barrel back to T/C and have them check out your barrel.  It is well out of factory accuracy specs.  45-70's usually shoot very well, exhibiting near one hole groups at 50 yds with jacketed bullets and factory ammo. This is not saying cast bullets and reloads will not shoot in your barrel, I have barrels that will shoot into an inch at one hundred using cast.