How do you feel about American Muslims?

[Cement Man]

Sourdough,
I am also a big TR fan also and believe exactly what he says about the big stick. I've worked in foreign lands, served in war, and been shot at a few times myself. As to my specific prejudices, fears, concerns, or lack thereof, I haven't said anything about that.  

What I am saying is that I don't think that the act of expressing different opinions on this forum is something I disagree with or find to be a vulnerability that would or could be exploited by those who would harm us.  No more, no less.

[youthpastorjon]

Youthpastor;

   Where did you meet these Muslims you are referring to ? Was it connected with your Christian service ?  Perhaps you only met with a select group that are
  faking friendship ...or some small group that are truly trying to be friendly .
   You will note that I didn't spew any hate..I just advised caution !...But let's look at the facts :
  
   We know that the group that flew planes into the World Trade center were 100% Muslim..
      
    ..But what were the ones that :
  
  A) Blew up the Khobar towers
  
  B) Tried to blow up the World Trade center in 1992 .

  C) Blew up the nightclub in Bali.

  D) Blew up the Marine barracks in Lebanon in 1983 .

  E)  Blew up Day care centers in Israel .

  F)  Blew up a huge jetliner over Lockerbie Scotland .

  G) Took over a cruise ship called Achile Lauro, and murdered an old man in a wheel chair .

  H) Took an athletic team hostage from thw 1972 Munich Olympics..and murdered the whole team.

  I)  Crashed a Jetliner into the Pentagon, murdering many .

  J)  Killed dozens of Americans by crashing an airliner into a farm field in Pennsylvania .

  K) Blew up pizza parlors in Tel Aviv.

  L) Beheaded journalist, Danny Perl .

  M) Beheaded another non-combatant named Berg .

  N) Tried to destroy an American ship, the USS Cole, killing I believe, seventeen.

  O) Strangled their own daughters for dating a non-Muslims .

  P) Blew up buses in central London, killing many men, women & children.

  Q) Put out a death contract on an author they didn't like .

  R) Send people through brush grinders,....feet first .

  S) Stone women to death..for being raped .

  T) Kidnapped a missionary couple in the Philippines, murdering the husband before releasing the woman (when they got shot by Filipino soldiers).

  U) Often car bomb a public place, then Bombed the rescue workers when they arrive and are trying to assist the victims of the first bombing .

  V) Took women to the public sports arena, had them kneel..to take a bullet in the brain.

  W) Danced in the streets of Palestine as thousands were incinerated in the World Trade center .

  X) Left "torture houses" in Iraq, when the American forces advanced to fast for them to cover their crimes.

  Y) Are today, running amok..murdering and taking slaves in the Sudan .

  Z)Murdered construction workers, burned their bodies to a crisp and hung them on a bridge .

  AA) Blew up trains in Spain , killing between 1&2 hundred.

  BB) Blew up a club in Australia .

  CC) Put a 'death price" on a cartoonist's head .

  DD) Used mentally handicapped women and children a human bomb carriers .

          Now, youthpastor, this is just a PARTIAL list, showing just a few of the many diabolical crimes committed by......WHO ? I could continue..but I think you must be getting it !

   Think; Almost all of these evil crimes were perpetrated in the name of their god...
   We Christians know of ONE God...and one who pretends to be a god...which one would inspire this kind of evil brutality ?    ....A single word answer will suffice !

  

  The point of this thread was not addressed.  None of the instances you mentioned were carried out by Americans.  The people you mentioned are evil.  I do not disagree with you at all on that point but it has nothing to do with the original post. 

[Dee]

I will address the question of how I feel about American Muslims. I don't believe there is such a thing. I believe there are Muslims living in America, but they will GO WITH THE MUSLIM THEOLOGY EVERY TIME if it goes against America, and with that said, I don't believe there are any AMERICAN MUSLIMS. JUST MUSLIMS LIVING IN AMERICA. That has been proven time and time again.
SO!  I say. A Muslim is a Muslim, REGARDLESS of where they live. The so called PEACEFUL ones NEVER denounce the violent ones, and to say that they are harmless, is to admit that you have not considered what the Koran teaches them.
A small group is peaceful because they feel vulnerable, and do not want to be ejected form the community, but just wait until their numbers increase. Have none of you not watched what is happening in England and France? They do not wish to assimilate. They wish to alter. This is not RADICAL ISLAM. It is every day ISLAM.
 Democracy, and Freedom, i.e. AMERICA, has no place in an Islamic THEOCRACY, which is what the Muslim religion is all about (THEOCRACY). Educate yourselves. This is why there are no, and never will be ANY DEMOCRACIES IN ANY ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.
Oh, and if I sound judgemental of Islam?  Ok. 
I used to tell my boys; You can put a dog collar on a coyote, and name him Spot, but don't put him in charge of the sheep and the chickens. He's a coyote at heart. Thus the Muslim. Wake up and smell the coffee. 

[SHOOTALL]

WHEN AMERICANS WAKE UP they will realize that not all the other people in the world wish to be Americans !
they want our land and riches though !

[ironglow]

 Tm7;

  I think you better review my posts here. When I listed those murderous acts that have been committed, I surely didn't question your patriotism or anything about your motives..in fact, I didn't even mention you and wasn't even thinking about you when I typed that post !
   So...how in the world did you get so worked up ? What kind of raw nerve did I strike without even addressing you ? What kind of affinity do you have with Islam that you feel so duty bound to refuse to face a mere 30 odd acts, of all the hundreds recognized by all intel agencies as the work of Islamofacist attacks.
 
  You accuse me of covering for a corrupt administration..I said nothing about any administration...
   
    The bombers themselves are proud of their handiwork..often bragging about it and claiming credit for the mayhem. Fact is fact..and when it concerns friends, it can be painful..still we cannot deny the facts .
 
   Facts are stubborn things.. (John Adams)

[Dixie Dude]

Christianity did go through a reformation an came out of the middle ages.  What happened in later European wars was strickly economics and power hungry people in control.  With the lone exception of Northern Ireland, Europeans have finally learned to get along an cooperate.  Islam came from the middle ages to modern times overnight with the discovery of oil.  Shieks and kings are still in power.  They haven't learned to get along with other people in the world.  It took Europe a long time to throw off the kings and dictators and embrace democracy.  It may take a long time for the Muslims to do the same.  In the meantime we have to be on guard constantly.  Little Israel is not their problem.  They even fight each other.  Iran-Iraq.  Libia-Chad, Turkey-Kurds, Sunis-Shiites, Somolia, etc. 

[hillsider69]

Don't know !
In the USA we have separation of church and state . As a State in the world The USA decides its own way to deal with events . Even treaties we sign because we choose to . Muslims on the other hand govern from the religion and to fight one is to fight all . We make the mistake that all people if given the chance would want what we want and have , a very bad mistake on our part ( Muslims are not the only people fitting this miscalculation ) . We should then ask why are Muslims then moving out of their traditional world and into ours ? The short answer would be EXPANSION . Same reason our fore fathers moved to new places !
What I don't know is how one can be both a loyal American and a loyal Muslim . This is not a cut in any way I just don't know how ! Who will they side with if all Muslims are called to war against Christianity or America ? It seems the Muslim of today could be more threat than the Japanese Americans of WW-2 fame if war comes . We now look back at that as a mistake , but they called themselves Americans ! and they were and are . when people call themselves ? Americans  things get a bit cloudy IMHO !
The times we live in are very dangerous to say the least and all true Americans should be watchful as to what outsiders and dual citizens are doing in our country ! If they truly like our way then we welcome them if they wish to make us them . we need to send them packing !
WE MUST PROTECT OUR WAY OF LIFE !

In the USA we have separation of church and state    As a UK outsider (who has served as a church minister for 12 years) and a twice yearly visitor to the USA I would say that this statement is not true in reality. The "bible belt" is so powerful it controls who gets into and who stays out of power. Likewise the USA is not a democracy but a "money-tocracy", look at what is being spent now on your elections!
  Having owned a company in the USA, sorry, Texas, It is clear that the people are great, but need to remember that while they think it's God's country, its also just a part of God's world.

[billy_56081]

 This is about how members here feel about Muslims in America. Please lets hear about the good and bad about muslims, not someones anti Semitic Nazi propaganda.

[ironglow]

TM;

  Right here is the place to disprove the attacks I mentioned . They were listed here..disprove them here.
  I don't habituate the "conspiracy" forum.

[Dixie Dude]

TM7-The Renaissance started in the 1400's and 1500's.  By then the Protestant reformation had taken root in England and Northern Europe.  After the Spanish Armada's defeat, there were no major religious wars in Europe.  By then it was a scientific Renaissance which happened to coincide with the Protestant reformation.  Wars in Europe after that were economic in nature or because of someone who was power hungry like Napoleon or Bismark who united the German states.  Later it was Hitler, Lennin and Stalin.  America showed that Protestants and Catholics could live together in peace.  Now, the Muslims haven't had a Renaissance or Reformation.  They are still living under Islamic middle age codes.  These conflict with modern Western democracies.  They cannot accept or tolerate other religions.  Look at the Buddist statues in Afganistan that the Taliban destroyed.  Look and India (Hindu) and Pakastan constantly bickering.  Look at Sudan, with Southern Sudan being Christian and having the oil which the northern 3/4ths of Sudan being Muslim wants control over.  Ethopia is Christian and is surrounded by Muslin nations.  Look at Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnia, Nigeria, Kenya.  All of these countries have mixed Muslim with Christian conflicts whether it be Catholic in Bosnia, or Orthodox in Kosovo.  Look also at Sri-Lanka, mixed Muslim and Hindu again.  They can't tolerate any other religion period.  If they could, there would be peace in these area.  Israel had a democracy.  Haifa, a city in Northern Israel had at one time a Muslim mayor.  Israel allows people of other religions freedoms within their borders like any western country.  They can vote, hold office, etc. 

[powderman]

Like it or not, we ARE in a war. Good vs evil, God vs satan, islam against the world. The devils cult will not quit til we are all dead, that is the goal of satan, and islam. Islam is a Godless cult, every convert to islam is a soul lost to satan himself. POWDERMAN. 

[Dixie Dude]

Amen, Powderman. 

[torpedoman]

there is a real good reason that our founders insisted on a separation of church and state.If you check history anytime any country is ran by any religion they persecute and kill anyone who disagrees with them. remember the inquisition that wasn't muslin's in charge  the protestants and catholics are fighting in Ireland killing each other because of religion and the one in power always represses the other. As for them speaking the language, How many of us speak cree or Navajo, dress like us we were here first when was the last time you put on your headdress ,loincloth and moccasins and went to town.

[ironglow]

 Torpedoman;

  As an outspoken, Evangelical Christian, I back the idea of separation of church and state fully..just as our founding fathers did in all their writings. I was trained Baptist, and that is a heritage of Baptists, since back in Europe and the British Isles, their history has been one of persecution.
  The Rhode Island Colony was a good example. Roger Williams (confidant of my first progenitor in America) was a firm Baptist, but all faiths were allowed to practice in the colony. The various faiths included a Jewish contingent..and one person's vote was as valuable as another.
  Where I believe we are skewed a bit in 21st century America is where a small minority are insisting that Christians have no voice in the current culture. Somewhere around 90% describe themselves as Christian, but as soon as a measure is enacted that can be compared to a Christian value..the 'screaming mimis" start crying "separation"..
  Yers, many Christians get their values from their faith..others get their values from parents, school, reading and family etc. That is how human beings are constructed..yet some misguided folks think those who get their values from parents, school, reading, family etc are completely fine, but if any values come from one's faith..these values are not valid.
     That is bigotry in the first degree !
   For instance; suppose the question as to whether our country should allow babies to be aborted comes to a referendum..and just suppose the people by a margin of 55%
  say we should not do it ! Right away, the mimis would scream that such is a Christian tenet and it would be illegal to enforce it !
  Of course, that would be a false assumption. True it is a Christian value, but many others hold the same value, plus it matters not who's value it is..what matters is that 55% of the voters do not want their nation to go down that path. What a person's faith or non-faith is should not come into the discussion..only that 55% of us do not want it as part of our culture !
   We, as a nation outlaw rape, murder (most), robbery and extortion..so it is no question as to IF we can do it.. we can !

        The ideal situation is free imput by every citizen, regardless of their faith or non-faith, and let the "market place of ideas" sort it out. That is how freedom works in a republic !

   In Muslim dominated countries, we see that this does not work, their philosophy seems to be any form of freedom..only submission to Islam. In fact, we are often told that the very word "Islam" means "peace"..not quite accurate..it translates better to"submission", meaning "peace through submission to Islam".
   
   Some misguided folks here in the US are fighting Christians, claiming that they are too demanding, when we have had nearly 2.5 centuries of US history with no problem of Christians
  trying to dominate govt..yet these same misguided folks will defend and protect Islam against Christian alarms...and we can all see what happens when Muslims become the dominant
   culture in a country.
    "To be forewarned is to be forearmed.."

[ironglow]

TM;

   The forum here is " Round the old pot bellied stove"..the question was " What do you think about American Muslims ?". I gave my thoughts on the subject, tying
  worldwide Muslim terrorism into the discussion (because I don't believe you can separate the two). I did not say "hate' or "kill" simply because of one's religion, but I do counsel caution and skepticism.
  You don't believe those points i listed are valid..so disprove them ..right here.

  TM..It does appear that you are quite willing to cut the Muslim terrorists a lot more slack than you are willing to cut for Christians on this forum ! Is that by accident
  or by design ?

  BTW: While I type, homeland Security is investigating an explosion in an armed forces recruiting center in Manhattan..
   Terrorism..dunno  Domestic or foreign..dunno..but we sure have had a lot of refinery, pipeline etc explosions lately !

[SHOOTALL]

DIXIEDUDE ,  better check on the events that started WW-1 . You may be surprised to see the Christian / Islamic undertones .
also open your eves we don't get along all that well .
Hillsider69 , I live in the Bible belt and I see your statement as a display of misunderstanding of our system ( surely you aren't the first from the UK to be mistaken ) ! The Bible belt is but a portion of the voting public . I will offer only one example - ABORTION , I feel confident that if the Bible belt voters controlled the govt. it would be illegal .
I don't pretend to know what goes on in the UK you should refrain from such ridiculous statements about the USA !
Maybe next time you visit you will notice the Govt. does not have a connection to nor does it answer to any form of Religious organization . Each voter can allow his religious belief or lack there of to influence his vote but that does not constitute a govt. mandated to preform as a religious organization dictates . If you care to revisit history you will notice that many who came to America came to be able to worship as they wished not as some king made them  . And further note that  the  armies of the king were then sent packing ! ( twice ) .
Congrads on being a minister , but i don't see that making you an expert on American politics . The American political system is very complex and a 2 week a year visit might not give enough time to grasp all the elements that make our system superior to all others .

[Graybeard]

IG...lets see what GB wants, otherwise we can go PM.

TM I guess I don't see what it is you want to know what I want to be honest with ya. Perhaps I missed a point or a post that would explain it but I just dunno what it is you're referring to here. But to state my position on this thread it is:

I feel it's a valid question. I'd just as soon the poll had been left off as I don't think it's particularly relavant and has too few and perhaps improper options for voting. Still the question is a valid one to ask on this forum and this site.

I feel as I said at some point along the line you cannot be a proper and devout muzlim and a good American both. Sorry but my view is the two are mutually exclusive. Their bible tells them to dominate and convert or kill and that's NOT the American way.

Now I believe your views and my views are as far apart as it is possible for two people's views to be on the matter of muzlims and Jews both. I've read what I can of your posts and the links you gave me but I just flat don't understand your position nor do I agree with it. From where I sit you are just dead wrong on this issue. Still I'm not censoring your priviledge to state it. But rest assured I definitely do not agree with you on it.

[ironglow]

  News This morning;

   Manilla police arrest 3 middle eastern men on charges of planning to bomb the American embassy in Manilla. Filipino police also say the trio may have been planning
   on bombing the British, Australian and Israeli embassies. Police said they had ties to one of those goofy named Muslim terrorist organizations..one that was responsible for bombing a ferry boat working near Manilla in 2004...killing 116 people..

  Bloomberg speaks in Times Square, in front of the military career center that was bombed at 3:45 AM this morning..

    Personally, i think this small bomb was one designed to "test the system" to see if they could do the same later with a much larger or a more neuc/bio type bomb
   later on..perhaps right after the elections here.

[woodchukhntr]

Data shows Paly civilian deaths 50 times Issy civilian deaths.....that data is real, that data tells a story.   Right now we are watching, or some of us are watching, the systematic ethnic cleansing of Gaza,,,,Gaza is prime beach front real estate and natural gas has been discovered there.  I simply do not like our country dragged in and perpetuating this mess as it is unnecessary and likely immoral, moreover it has brought this debtor nation to the brink of an economic meltdown.  So, I'm not cutting either side slack, but those fomenting this chaos rub me the wrong way at times.

....TM7

It took me a while to figure out what Paly and Issy meant and do not understand why they were used.  If Palestinian civilian deaths are 50X Israeli deaths, it is not for the Palestinians lack of trying, just less efficient technology!  Thank God that they do not have aircraft!  If they did, you can be assured that they would not limit their terrorism to Israel (Welcome to New York!).  It seems to me that they are the aggressors, and Israel is retaliating.  If you notice, the Palestinians specifically target civilians, while the Israelis target terrorists.  For instance, the Palestinians are shooting rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas in Israel, while Israel is attacking the places where the rockets are coming from and the people who are launching and directing the attacks.  Of course, the Palestinians prefer to place civilians as a shield around them so when the counterattack comes the civilian casualty rate will be high.  Do you agree that hiding behind civilians is a cowardly act?  The world does not, since the Palestinians, the civilian-attacking aggressors, are the favored children in this conflict.

[Dixie Dude]

Gaza is a very high density populated area.  Israel signed a "peace treaty" to allow them their own country which included Gaza.  They wanted more, they want Isreal in the sea.  If you were a Jew and had 6 million killed in WWII, and finally could go back to your Biblical homeland, wouldn't you be edgy too.  Like I said, they allow Arab citizens to vote within their border.  Would the Arabs do likewise?  Or would they have some King, Shiek, or dictator running their country.  They couldn't even make a decent democracy work when they had the chance.  Their religion don't allow it.  They don't respect other religions.  Israel is surrounded, and has been attacked 4 times by the surrounding countries, and got whipped.  So, now they rely on terroist activities against Israel.

[SHOOTALL]

hang fire on world events !
Lets look here , in some areas of this country the Muslim can refuse to check you out at the store if you have Beer .
But if the store has a drug counter they have to give you birth control pills even if the Druggist religion forbids it .
WILL SOME ONE SPLAIN THIS ?

[woodchukhntr]

Here is a cartoon that I ran across that sums up the differences rather well:

[Sourdough]

Just look at what is happening in Europe.  They take over a small area and set up their laws inside a country, and when that country tries to stop it they protest and every time the protest turn violent and the world is told how oppressive the country they are living in is and the world backs the Muslims.  This has become a serious problem in many European countries like Germany and France, even Spain is having problems.  They quietly move in, use the laws of the land to gain an advantage, then concur. 

The European countries did not do anything to nip it in the bud so to speak, now look at their problems.  It is happening here also.  All Muslims send their kids to Muslims schools where the clerics teach anti-American ideas, and how to get around American laws.  And we are doing nothing about it. 

[woodchukhntr]

A few pictures from the peaceful Muslim neighborhoods of England where everybody is working together for mutual tolerance of religious differences:

[ironglow]

 News flash this afternoon;

    Eight students murdered at seminary in Jerusalem. A couple of the scum were killed on the spot , others being hunted !

      Like it or not...we are in deep into WW3 ...!

   We better think about this years pick for Commander-in-Chief..who of the three can handle the job best ? Which one will the terrorists fear most ?

  I personally believe that the crazies are only holding off till after the election..then..we get it with both barrels !

[ironglow]

   For youthpastor's info;

   Those pictures that Woodchukhntr put up are from London, UK. Most all those "protestors" are native born "Englishmen"..go figure..

   It can't happen here ? ...Do we REALLY believe that ?

[youthpastorjon]

And for your info I know where the pictures were taken.  Once again, my comments have been in regards to the purpose of the original post.  I don't support terrorist, I don't support people condemn our way of life.  I believe the teaching of Islam is false.  That said, I would not associate in a religious gathering and try to mesh Islam and Christianity. 

I am more than willing to condemn a false teaching IG.  I am however unwilling to condemn an entire people group.  Whether you choose to accept it or not, when God sees people He sees value and until we see people as lost and in need of a Savior we will be ineffective as Christians.  I never said to embrace the teaching of Islam.  However, when I meet a Muslim in my country I will treat them like a human and will show them respect. 

In the NT we find several instances when Jesus associated with and offered hope to Samaritans.  They were considered racially impure (many intermarried with other cultures), political traders (many were employed by foreign occupiers), and religious apostates (were building their own temple on Mount Gerezim).  Jesus reached beyond racism, political differences, and religious barriers and showed love and respect.  Just a note, He never said they were ok.  Jesus never said sin was ok but he did treat people with dignity. 

Do you remember the story in Luke when a woman was caught in THE VERY ACT OF ADULTERY?  Jesus offered a second chance with the words "Go and sin no more." 

I don't know the motives of the heart when it comes to my fellow Americans; Muslim, Christians, Buddhist, whatever.  What I do know is that as a believer I have an obligation to my God to spread His good news of Salvation even to those who hate me and want me dead.  When you get a chance check out the beatitudes and maybe pick a copy of Foxes Book of Martyrs. 

[billy_56081]

"Youthpastor...And that's what I believe too.  And Jesus, the Son of Man, taught that. But I understand he never evangelized"

Now are you telling us that Jesus is the son of man? I feel for your eternal soul. TM7 your Nazi trainers have really confused you. I'll pray for you.

[ironglow]

  Youthpastor..Review my posts..several times I distinctly said I don't advise hate, hurt, kill as many of the Muslims do..I just recommend being wary ! Surely, if your child had to walk through a "bad neighborhood" ..you would at the least tell them to be cautious..no ?
  Those protestors spreading their hate with bus bombs in London were native born. Do you STILL think that there is no way it could happen here ?

        TM;

   You should re-read my post also, where I first spoke of the bombing in Times Square. Look carefully..I said; " terrorism...dunno...foreign or domestic..dunno".
  I've been away today so don't know if they have any "proof positive" about who the bomber was..but they are all in the same league.

   Note: As you said, the Muslims in the Philipines have been attacking the rest of the people for a couple centuries..That doesn't make it OK, does it ?

     You didn't even address the murder of the Jerusalem seminary students in their school ! Something tells me that had it been some Israelis that murdered a batch of
  aspiring mullah..TM would be singing a different tune.

  Palestinians should vote in Israeli elections ..to the same percentage that Israelis are allowed to vote in Palestinian elections ...

  Well; not really..we can be reasonably assured that all votes will be counted and honored in Israel.

   As I see it..the best thing would be to construct a fairly impregnable wall about 20 ft tall between Israel and the surrounding Muslim countries..complete with 300 yd wide mine field.

    Now, before you start with the old "Iron Curtain" stuff..this wall would keep terrorists out and keep peaceful people safe..nearly the opposite of the Iron curtain..

[torpedoman]

I was really amazed that we didn't have an attack before the last election. It worked so well for them in Spain were one attack changed the government.The present government there  owes them their job so they aren't likely to lead a charge against them.