Author Topic: Would you agree with this statement about 270?  (Read 7673 times)

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Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2008, 02:40:58 AM »
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LOL not buying this line,at all,i dont think anyone is.You have either killed  VERY small number of animals or you are completely FOS,anyone with field experience knows that this isnt going to happen EVERY time,you are only fooling yourself,if anyones trolling its you with your stories,you cant possibly expect people to believe this do you?
generally nonya, i have agreed with your view in the past, there have been exceptions, though.  an example of that would be with your opinion of nosler ballistic tips. 
     instead of calling you a bald faced liar,  who is f.o.s., who doesnt know a damn thing, who exceeded the recommended velocities and applications for a given bullet weight (then blamed the bullet company for bad results), who hasn't killed very many animals,  who doesnt have squat for field experience, who is only fooling himself, who is just telling stories,  who is trolling, who cant possibly expect anyone to believe his b.s. stories; i simply stated that my experiences were different than yours.   i assumed you did have a bad experience, and a reason to think what you did.   from following your posts, i figured perhaps you were maybe telling the truth as you experienced it.    in short, I SHOWED YOU SOME  RESPECT that i thought you deserved. 
was i wrong to do so?  it kind of seems that way right now.
      i cant for the life of me figure out that for a guy that hates it when others dont agree with him, can be so quick to outright call another a liar so fast.   i guess maybe i was raised differently, as i dont say anything online that i wouldnt say to someones face.   maybe it was my upbringing, maybe it is because of where i live, maybe it is from my time in the infantry, maybe it is because i am a biker, or perhaps it is just who i am.   after seeing you flame one person after another,  to outright question one's integrity without pause or  thought. i ask myself, what is up with you?    what could cause someone to be so hateful?   intolerant.  why?
what the hell has anyone ever done to you to make you think you have the right to treat others this way,  then get indignant as hell if anyone questions your stance? 
     

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2008, 04:44:35 PM »
OK guys, I have been a little busy today & yesterday & I am just now seeing this, it's time for 2 of you to take a deep breath & back
off a little. I see some statements in this discussion that I don't agree with in general & I will deal with them when I get back from Tupelo, MS., but it won't be done in quite this matter.

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Offline NONYA

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2008, 06:37:05 PM »
Sorry i dont believe your story,I doubt many do.I have shot MANY deer,usually 5+ every year,I know that they just dont drop in their tracks when shot EVERY time,regardless of caliber or shot placement,I have seen brain shot deer jump out of their tracks before they hit the ground.If your going to brag that every deer you shoot drops without taking a step expect some skepticism,thats a tall tale.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline Cement Man

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2008, 08:13:06 PM »
This whole "bang-flop" thing has always been somewhat quizzical to me. 

After 30 years of hunting, about a dozen years ago I started to keep a journal.  I realized that I was someday probably going to like reminiscing about past beautiful days in the field and the little episodes of the hunt, and I had better start writing things down so I could remember those days and what happened.  In that dozen years I have shot 30 whitetails - with shotgun slugs, muzzleloaders, handguns, and rifles.  I have only lost one deer in all my hunting - a poor hit with a .44 mag handgun (not one of the 30). I lost the meager blood trail in tall grass and spent half a day more looking before giving it up.

Out of the 30, all except 3 were one-shot kills.  Of that 30, I have had 4 drop in their tracks - one with a 12 gauge slug in the spine, one with a 30/30 and two shot with a .308.  The rest all staggered or ran from maybe 10 yards to 80 yards and dropped dead, some maybe with a kick or two.  Some ran right  towards me after being shot, some ran away, some turned around and headed balls out back to the trail they came out of the woods on and piled up, some ran for the thick stuff, and some ran and staggered like drunks. One ran smack dab into a tree.  Some had the far shoulder blown out and leg flopping in the breeze when they ran.  I tried some of those ballistics tips in a 150 grain .308 a few years back.  The boiler room looked like a soup factory, a mess, but the deer ran maybe 50 yards before piling up. I didn't use any more of those, but the last year or two I've shot a few with the Hornady SST's and I thought the wound channels looked good with a nice sized exit, so I think they hold together better.

I've shot some with their head down feeding, some walking, a few on the run.  I really cannot confirm, from my experience anyway, that relaxed, or between breaths, that they fall or run because of their state of relaxation or excitement. I haven't seen the correlation that others speak of.  It's always seemed pretty straightforward to me - a deer can have his heart blown out and often he still has enough oxygen somewhere to dash 50 yards (or more) and pileup. I've shot them through the lungs and had them go right down.  I don't know why, but they sure don't seem to me to all act the same.  Admittedly I am not that quizzical sometimes and don't do autopsies like some of my friends seem to be fanatical about.  I want to get it gutted, get it hung, get it skinned, get it cool, and get a beer.  Drop in its tracks, run 10 yards or 80, I figure I've done a good job and I have venison.  If I could make them fall where I wanted I'd have them go down closer to my truck.

I will say though, that I have a good friend who lives in the woods in Kentucky and is an excellent hunter and marksman.  He loves his .25-06 because he feels that it will regularly produce the "bang-flops" for him.  His goal, when he shoots a deer, is to drop it where it stands.  He tells me that with his .25-06 he kills them that way most of the time, more than with any other cartridge. I trust this fellow's word.  I've hunted other game with him and shot with him and he's not a phony.  It's probably thirty years since I read my Jack O'Connor books, but I do remember him describing the .270 as giving him similar results - or at least stating that he felt it killed quicker and more dramatically then other cartridges.
I liked reading Jack O'Connor and thought he pretty much told it straight.

So - "bang-flops"?  All I know is that I've never had one with an elk, and in the past dozen years my whitetail average is 13%.

BTW, the one I "spined" with the 12 gauge - "bang-flopped" me too.  I was still hunting and saw his legs under some low pine boughs.  I bent over at the waist, leaned way forward, got him in my scope in this goofy position I was in, and shot him.  So intent on the deer and the shot I didn't put that Mossberg to my shoulder.  The 4X40 bushnell kissed me pretty hard along side my nose and laid it open.  Had to pack sme snow on on my beak to stop the bleeding.  6 months later I had a toothache and the dentist asked me who I got in a fight with after he x-rayed the sheared roots he had to dig out.  I told him I got in a fight with a whitetail, a Mossberg, and a Bushnell.

That's all I know about "bang-flops".

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Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2008, 02:46:50 AM »
Sorry i dont believe your story,I doubt many do.I have shot MANY deer,usually 5+ every year,I know that they just dont drop in their tracks when shot EVERY time,regardless of caliber or shot placement,I have seen brain shot deer jump out of their tracks before they hit the ground.If your going to brag that every deer you shoot drops without taking a step expect some skepticism,thats a tall tale.
   no one is bragging,  just stating my experiences.  again, i ask 
Quote
what could cause someone to be so hateful?   intolerant.  why?

 i am guessing you wont address that,  either here or in your own head.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2008, 02:51:17 AM »
 i will also put my money where my mouth is.  anyone  can tag along with me on a whitetail hunt here,  and witness it for yourself.  i am talking sitting with me and watching the shot.  i might try to get some video footage of it.   but that will have to wait until fall, and, i have never tried it before.  so it might take some trial and error.

Offline NONYA

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2008, 08:36:59 AM »
Video footage of one bangflop isnt proof of the bold statement you made,you claim 100%,I have footage of a few bangflops but I claim about 20%,tops..There is nothing hateful about it Myro,I just dont believe anyone that shoots deer every year hasnt had one take a single step after it was shot,nobody I hunt with would believe it either,if it will make you feel better I wont tell you next time,Ill just let you believe everyone believes your wild claim.If you cant take someone telling you they dont believe a very unusual tale like yours keep it to yourself,we are allowed to disagree.I believe many people put way to much into the bangflop,if the game dies within a reasonable distance (100 yards) you have done your job well,you dont have to have 100% bangflops to be considered a good hunter,I have known some of the most proficient hunters anywhere and they never even use the term.A large percentage of my BFs have been game in their bed,even some of them have rolled over out of their original position so I guess they dont count either,you must be shooting deer with superglue on their hooves.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2008, 10:00:57 AM »
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There is nothing hateful about it Myro, 
o.k., perhaps not hateful, but very disrespectful.   i dont take being told i am f.o.s. lightly.   
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I just dont believe anyone that shoots deer every year hasnt had one take a single step after it was shot,nobody I hunt with would believe it either,if it will make you feel better I wont tell you next time,Ill just let you believe everyone believes your wild claim.
  i dont think it is a wild claim at all.  i would classify that as my experiences.  i think a wild claim might be something like declaring nosler bullets to be junk, very wild indeed given their PROVEN track record.   
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we are allowed to disagree.
disagreeing is one thing,  calling another a liar is something else altogether.
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if the game dies within a reasonable distance (100 yards) you have done your job well
i must be doing great then. 
 
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A large percentage of my BFs have been game in their bed,even some of them have rolled over out of their original position so I guess they dont count either,you must be shooting deer with superglue on their hooves.
maybe it is the over-priced, over-hyped bullets you shoot.   try some of the best bullets in the world, nosler ballistic tips (in appropriate weights @ a given velocity), and maybe you will change your tune.   
   again, i'll put my $ where my mouth is and invite you to come see what i have seen.    again, my own brother who i hunt with doesnt get the results i do,  i even concede that fact.   he is using different bullets, though.    those who know me know i am reputable; and i wont resort to calling names or making half baked statements about someone elses character or experiences.   
    would you ever admit that someone other than you might be right?  that they might have had different results?   that maybe saying someone is a liar, without putting much thought into it, without considering how that might reflect on YOU, before you just shoot off at the mouth?   
   i have followed and enjoyed your posts in the past,  but your crediblity has really been wearing thin as of late.   winter must be even longer in montana than it is here in wisconsin; as i can find no other reason for your brash accusations.   

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2008, 11:33:02 AM »
I must be a liar too......I've had mostly bang flops on the 50+ deer I've shot.....and most with a .243 I might add....

Nonya.....maybe you need to shoot better! :D

Yaah.....okay.........now.....don't go getting your panties in a wad I'm just teasing you....... ;D

Seriously, I shoulder shoot deer.......break both shoulders and they usually don't run.......
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Offline PartsMan

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2008, 11:40:24 AM »
I must be a liar too......I've had mostly bang flops on the 50+ deer I've shot.....and most with a .243 I might add....

Nonya.....maybe you need to shoot better! :D

Yaah.....okay.........now.....don't go getting your panties in a wad I'm just teasing you....... ;D

Seriously, I shoulder shoot deer.......break both shoulders and they usually don't run.......

That's impressive for a 243.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2008, 12:51:26 PM »
Yea.....I guess......the reason I went to a .270 is because I found out on the internet I couldn't kill deer with a .243.......  ;)
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Offline Cement Man

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2008, 01:08:17 PM »
Well VC, if you keep looking on the internet, you'll probably find out you can't kill one with a .270 either!  ;D
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Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2008, 02:45:19 PM »
In the past two years of hunting, with a firearm or muzzleloader (I'm not counting archery deer) I have shot three deer.  Both muzzleloader shots damaged the spine... one of the shots was straight through the spine above the chest cavity and needed a follow-up shot. 

The second ML deer had a bit of a strange bullet path that I can only guess was caused by irregularities in my home-cast maxiballs.  The shot went in about midway through the chest cavity and somehow went up (it was a down angle shot) and exited out the top of the deer just on the other side of the spine.  The lungs were damaged but the shock to the spine is what anchored that deer as well.  The lung damage meant that this doe was dead by the time I walked the 25 yards to where it lay.

The only other deer I've shot was a rather unceremonious 75 yard broadside shot on a trotting 9 pointer with a 30-06.  The 165 grain Nosler Partition loaded by Federal went in, tore both lungs nearly in two, and left about a quarter sized exit hole.  Zero meat was damaged and this deer was dead before it hit the ground, as if it were hit by lightning. 

The last two I suppose you could qualify as "bang-flop" kills.  The last one is the only one that couldn't be contributed to a shock to the central nervous system.

Offline rickt300

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2008, 04:03:25 PM »
If I used Barnes bullets I wouldn't believe in consistant bang flops either.
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Offline NONYA

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2008, 05:06:51 PM »
Ignorance is bliss,it must be,you guys really seem happy with yourselves.Like I said before,if you claim 100% BFS you are either 1 Not killing much game,at all 2 completely FOS or 3 not entirely aware of what a BF is,you pick whichever category you fall into,im done reading your BS.Myro if you cant come up with anything better than the old Nosler BS to troll with you might want to take up flyfishing.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline rickt300

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2008, 05:17:54 PM »
Now thats funny, I don't care who you are, thats durned funny.
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2008, 03:00:01 AM »
i already flyfish, and i am quite good at it; outfishing people using live bait quite regularly.   i suppose i am a liar about that as well. 

  what i cant figure is who exactly decreed nonya the expert on all things ballistic and how you single-handedly have more experience than anyone else regarding game harvested.    that is pretty arrogant, i dont care who you are or where it is you live.    i have killed my fair share of stuff, but i wouldnt proclaim to have done more than other guys who have hunted their entire lives as well.   i guess i am saying i dont have the patent on experience killing stuff.   and neither do you, nonya.   maybe your animals run a ways after you shoot them.  doesnt mean that because my experiences have been different that i have to call you a liar. 
 

Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2008, 03:00:55 AM »
If I used Barnes bullets I wouldn't believe in consistant bang flops either.
that might very well be the root of the problem.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2008, 03:04:42 AM »
I must be a liar too......I've had mostly bang flops on the 50+ deer I've shot.....and most with a .243 I might add....

Nonya.....maybe you need to shoot better! :D

Yaah.....okay.........now.....don't go getting your panties in a wad I'm just teasing you....... ;D

Seriously, I shoulder shoot deer.......break both shoulders and they usually don't run.......
i am not a fan of the 243.   but i have no reason to doubt what you say, and would never call you a liar over it.  i know some guys who use a 243 and they swear by them.   i can accept that your experience with the 243 may be different from mine.   maybe i am a trusting fool, or perhaps i can see the bigger picture; when multiple variables can come into play.   

Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2008, 03:10:22 AM »
Ignorance is bliss,it must be,you guys really seem happy with yourselves.Like I said before,if you claim 100% BFS you are either 1 Not killing much game,at all 2 completely FOS or 3 not entirely aware of what a BF is,you pick whichever category you fall into,im done reading your BS. ....
funny how it has to be totally your way or people are liars.   like i said before,  your pronouncements reflect more on you than they do on me.   i am not trying to humilate you, nonya.  i am just trying to get you to understand that other people may very well have different experiences than you,  it does not make them liars.  and saying they are reflects poorly on YOU.  i believe you are a better guy than that, or i wouldnt be wasting my time with you.   

Offline rickt300

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2008, 04:20:21 AM »
I too fly fish and enjoy it greatly.  About the 100% bangflop thing, thinking about it I hit a mule deer in the ribs at long range with a 150 grain Power point factory load and it ran 75 yards or so, this was in 1992. I never claimed 100% but if I started this pointless argument just using data created after 1992 we would be talking about at least 50 deer that none have traveled any distance after being shot though some kicked around a bit after going down.  I tend to take high lung shots with fast expanding bullets that also effect the spinal column or neck shots. Oops forgot, we are only considering solidly chest hit deer correct?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2008, 04:35:12 AM »
we hunt a state with lots of deer , and we shoot alot of deer to keep down crop , auto and yard damage . i have shot deer with 30 carbine to 375 win. and 12 and 20 ga. Some drop dead at the shot others don't . only sure shot is spine or brain . all others could take a second or two .
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2008, 06:18:42 AM »
we hunt a state with lots of deer , and we shoot alot of deer to keep down crop , auto and yard damage . i have shot deer with 30 carbine to 375 win. and 12 and 20 ga. Some drop dead at the shot others don't . only sure shot is spine or brain . all others could take a second or two .
calling names won't change a thing !

I agree.  The only way to get 100% BF is to shoot 100% of your targets in the head.  My experience has been that 10-20% of heart shot deer, with ANY caliber/bullet combination, will BF.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2008, 06:40:34 AM »
i already flyfish, and i am quite good at it; outfishing people using live bait quite regularly.

WHAT!!  OUT FISH THE REAL THING WITH ARTIFICIALS!?   :o  That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard!   Only a durned id-jit would believe that!   ::)

Why I ... I ... uh, sorry, ... I just remembered - I don't fish... nevermind...  I musta got caught up in the tone of the thread :-\

I think I have killed enough deer to have an opinion, but I also think I'll just keep it to myself.   :-X

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Offline NONYA

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2008, 07:20:17 AM »
 ;)
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline gr8ful

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #85 on: March 12, 2008, 07:25:32 AM »
I only have one thing against the .270 Win.....BORING REGULARITY!!!

That being said, my .270 is my "go-to" rifle.  Out to 300 yards I never even think about it, hold halfway up the shoulder, send a 130gr Silvertip on it's way and go collect my animal.  Sometimes they go 15 -50 yards, sometimes they just fall over.  

This whole thing about BF is BS.  I shot a medium sized doe last fall with my muzzle loader,  .50 cal 295gr powerbelt  at 15 yds, broke both shoulders shredded the top of the heart and bottom of both lungs. Bang Flop? nope, she ran about 45 yards.  Left a blood trail Ray Charles could follow.  I also shot a small four point with my .223 while coyote hunting,  50 gr ballistic tip through the neck at 40 yards nearly severed his head.  He jumped about 5 feet straight up into the air and landed in a pile.  By this whole bang flop theory and these two instances should I conclude that the .223 with a varmit bullet is a better choice for deer than my muzzle loader?


Offline gr8ful

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2008, 07:32:23 AM »
Oh and BTW I've been shooting hornady sst's in my 25-06 for the last two seasons and they perform exactly as advertised.

Offline NONYA

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2008, 08:45:01 AM »
 Left a blood trail Ray Charles could follow
priceless ;D
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2008, 10:03:20 AM »
Quote
The only way to get 100% BF is to shoot 100% of your targets in the head.

   i hate to say it but what i have seen doesnt jive with that statement.  usually the deer i have seen shot in the head thrash, kick and sometimes "bahhhhhh"   for quite a while before they give up the ghost.   all neck shots i have seen shuts them off like a switch has been thrown, providing that the vertabrae were hit.     
   i'm not calling you a liar, just saying that results may vary.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Would you agree with this statement about 270?
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2008, 10:07:32 AM »
one other clarification...i have never said you must get a bang/flop.   nor did i ever imply it.  all i said was that the deer i have shot with my 270 and nosler 150 grain ballistic tips@2900 fps dropped like they had been hit between the eyes with lightning.   thats all i ever said.