Cartridge vs loose powder

[majorchaos]

Greetings,
New guy to the forum here, and before anyone says "use the search", I did and could not find what I was looking for in the answers.

What I'm looking for is safety procedures, loading procedures for cannons. Especially in the area of how the black powder is loaded.
Okay, that seems a bit vague. Let me see if I can clear that up a bit. I'm the safety officer in a re-enacting group that has just started to formalize everything and get better organized so that we can get more invitations to events. One of the items we are working up is a safety rules and procedures. I've scoured the net looking, and found many good references to use. However, one item in particular is giving me some concern. That is in regards to loading cannons. It seems there are two schools of thought here. The first is that a cartridge made of tin foil is to be used, the other is that the powder is poured into a measure first then down the barrel.  Actually, there's a third and that's the cartridge is made of tin foil with powder measured off and put into a plastic bag, which is then set in the tin foil and sealed up.

So, what I'm here to ask is which method is the correct way? What are the safety precautions for both?  Actually, for the loose powder, I would presume that the barrel be well swabbed after firing the cannon before the next powder measure is poured down the barrel.

The method we currently use is the first I listed. Tin foil cartridges are made up, the powder measured and poured into that and then it is sealed and labeled (with magic marker) on the number of grains in the cartridge.

what do you all think? I'd love to get opinions and references.
Thanks
Joe

[Cat Whisperer]

Joe -

Welcome to the board!

Short answer - more later & others WILL chime in.

The best way is the SAFE way.  (OBVIOUSLY)

Our standard places to 'go-to' in these issues are the folks that do much of it - N-SSA and AAA.  Take a look at their rules.

more later

[cannonmn]

I always recommend that shooters buy the book "The More Complete Cannoneer" by Matthew Switlik.  His business is called Museum and Collector Specialties, and is in Monroe, MI.  This book is considered the "bible" by many experienced shooters.

[Will Bison]

Having tried a few different ways to get powder in the gun I like the foil cartridge. When I make mine I wrap it around a mandrel three times. One end is folded over and sealed, measured charge poured in and then the end twisted over. Never tried the plastic bag inside the foil, seems like an unneeded step unless moisture is a major issue.

[Cat Whisperer]

Excellent, thanks for posting these!

Another place to look (although you already have the best advice) is the certification that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts requires of cannoneer re-enactors.

[threepdr]

Major,

You did not mention what era you reenact.  The crewing procedures are different for various eras, but no reenactment groups that I have ever dealt with load with loose powder.  That is the most unsafe method of loading because the powder is instantly exposed to any embers that may be left from the previous shot.  Everyone uses Alum foil, the baggy on the inside is debated, but foil is not.

Before taking your gun to any event make contact with other artillery units to get live, personal mentoring.  Do not rely on internet sources or books.  Go to event, meet other cannoneers and see how they do it.  Better yet, before you take your gun work on a crew of someone else's gun. 

This will not only make you aware of safety, and the mechanics of loading/firing/making cartridges etc, but will also clue you in on the other requirements reenactments and living history in general.

Good luck, be safe

[cannonmn]

I'll add my vote to  the "foil only" side.  A plastic bag inside of the foil, with powder inside that forms an electrical device known as a capacitor.  The powder is normally coated with graphite and is an electrical conductor, so you have two conductors separated by a dielectric material, that can store quite large amounts of electrical energy under the right conditions.  I don't know of any accidents yet that have been attributed to this practice, but I don't want to find out the hard way, usually if something bad can happen it will, sooner or later.

[Victor3]

 Wow. I never thought of that.

 I was thinking to make up cartrides that way to store. I'll stick to just foil. They'll be stored in an ammo can anyway.

 Probably remote that it would ever cause a problem, but no need to gamble on being first to have one.

 Thanks...
 

[Double D]

I heard this plastic bag capacitor/battery argument a long time ago...believe it was in The Artilleryman...back in the 80's or so.  I don't remember the reason why but it ain't so said the experts.

[rifleshooter2]

Wow. I never thought of that.

 I was thinking to make up cartrides that way to store. I'll stick to just foil. They'll be stored in an ammo can anyway.

 Probably remote that it would ever cause a problem, but no need to gamble on being first to have one.

 Thanks...
 

Be careful on how long you store completed catridges after time the powder and foil can react and corrode the foil.

Andy

[majorchaos]

Hi there and thanks for the welcome to the board and the fantastic answers.

The era we will be portraying is Golden Age of Piracy and colonial america era, in particular pirate/privateers in the Baltimore and Chesapeake Bay area.
We will be primarily looking to shoot naval cannons. 

After doing a little more research and talking to some of the local groups here, I think I have found the source of the confusion and concerns.  All the groups I have talked to use either naval guns or field artillery and all subscribe to the tin foil cartridges. The confusion I believe and still need to verify is from an out of town group that is coming to the event. They referred to all their pieces as "cannon" and said they prefer to use loose powder. However, after checking around a bit, I believe that one of their "cannons" is actually a swivel gun. It was pretty much the consensus of the local groups that as long as the bore of the swivel was 1.5 inch or less, it could be loaded like a musket, since the barrel can be elevated to the vertical for loading. So, I think I have found our source of our concern and we'll be incorporating guidelines for swivel cannons into our safety procedures.

Again, Thanks for all the information.  I'll be looking up that book this weekend and giving it a good read. I've got a copy of the Maryland State Park black powder rules, and will be using that as a reference too.
Thanks
Joe.

[Cat Whisperer]

I'll add my vote to  the "foil only" side.  A plastic bag inside of the foil, with powder inside that forms an electrical device known as a capacitor.  The powder is normally coated with graphite and is an electrical conductor, so you have two conductors separated by a dielectric material, that can store quite large amounts of electrical energy under the right conditions.  I don't know of any accidents yet that have been attributed to this practice, but I don't want to find out the hard way, usually if something bad can happen it will, sooner or later.

I don't buy it.  "Large amounts" is just not right.  (I am a Test Engineer, making instruments and machines that measure electrical performances.)  Further published pictures/experiments of trying to ignite black and smokeless powder using electrical sparks were notable failures.  In addition, the State of Massachusetts REQUIRES the combination of foil AND plastic bagging.

Having said that, I don't use the plastic bagging.

[GGaskill]

While the powder/bag/foil combo does look like a capacitor, I can see no way that a charge could penetrate the outer conductor to reach the inner conductor and accumulate between them.  The foil is acting like a shield.

But I don't use plastic bags either.

[Cat Whisperer]

While the powder/bag/foil combo does look like a capacitor,
...

It IS a capacitor.

The real question is two fold:
a. how much of a charge in practical terms CAN be generated and held for a reasonable length of time; and
b. what effect does (can) an electrostatic charge have on igniting commonly used black powder.

The electrostatic charge that can be generated is that which is generated when pouring the powder into the plastic bag.

As a practical real-life reality check I raise the question: has ANYONE ever experienced ignition of black powder from pouring from one to another container of any nature?  I don't think there is ANY evidence of it happening. 

So then there may well be some SMALL charge generated.  The ability of the capacitor to hold the charge is dependent on two things - it's ability to not 'leak' the charge and it's ability to hold any charge.  DISTANCE between conductors and the quality of the dielectric (polyethylene bag in this case) are two factors to consider.  The distance is, compared to real-life applications is fairly thick, lessening the ability of the device to store electrons.  It is not easy to make a capacitor of any great size using aluminum foil and polyethylene (of common plastic bag thicknesses) that could hold enough of a charge (assuming that it could be generated by simply pouring in the powder) that would be functional in creating any spark when given the right circumstances.

Here's a practical test:  Pour the measured amount of powder into the plastic bag of your choice.  Observe to see if there is enough of a static charge to hold the smallest granules of powder on the bag when you pour it out.  It takes MUCH more than that to create a spark.

AND just one, or LOTS of sparks just don't ignite black powder - not from static electricity (at least at the levels discussed here or from experiments already published)

END OF RANT

I am certainly open to considering ALL evidence to the contrary.  Safety is our prime concern.

[Artilleryman]

I know that Mass. requires a plastic bag, but maybe someone could explain the practical purpose of using a plastic bag in the construction of a cartridge.   

[seacoastartillery]

     Artilleryman,    You have asked the most pertinent question in this discussion.  Cat Whisperer has given us more than a few reasons why the introduction of a thin polyethylene bag is NOT a hazard when assembling BP cartridges for cannon.  I lived in the Northeast for 25 years and was privileged to attend an artillery shoot in Saratoga, NY where a very knowledgeable artillerist explained the reason he and most of the crews there used plastic baggies to hold the powder within the heavy duty aluminum foil cartridge.  It seems that, over the years they had been shooting, they noticed that occasionally a cartridge would LEAK some powder as it was transported or handled prior to firing.  Loading such a cartridge could be dangerous if any sparks or embers had been left in the tube do to incomplete or imperfect sponging.  They thought and think still today, that a method of preventing ANY leakage of powder grains would be a prudent and safer practice. 

     Rule two of the American Artillery Association's 'Ten Basic Safety Regulations' states the following:

"Prepare powder charges in advance using heavy duty aluminum foil. Baggies may be used inside the foil, taking care not to allow excess air in the baggies and removing excess plastic where unnecessary."

     Although it requires experimentation and practice to use plastic baggies effectively in 1" cartridges, Mike and I think the idea has merit when used in  cartridges large and small.  We have done our own "Static Electricity Tests" to satisfy ourselves that this type of spark WILL NOT ignite BP.  From wool coats and paper clip discharges to 100,000 volt stun gun sparks 1.75" long, we have been unable to ignite any BP or smokeless powder either.

Do your own tests; satisfy yourself.  That's our thinking on this matter.

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

Comments modified pertaining to the use of baggies in 1" bore cannon after successful experiments conducted after reading DD's comments which follow this post.

[Double D]

Over the years I  have seen and heard the various arguments on both sides of this subject.  I believe they are all unfounded and made to support one position over another....James Carvelle, the Spin Doctor would be well at home in this arguement.

This may indeed be a capacitor, but a very weak and inefficient one at best. What is missing is a power source to charge the capacitor and means of discharge. A capacitor requires one plate to be loaded with electrons and the other to have its electrons diminshed.  I doubt you could get the graphite on powder to take sufficient charge to discharge into the aluminum foil. 

I'm surprised no one said this isn't a capacitor but a battery. I have heard that one also. The powder foil combination without the plastic bag is a lot closer to a battery than with a plastic  bag being a capacitor.  It could be be a battery indeed with the introduction of moisture and a breakdown of the powder to create a chemical reaction.  That's part of the reason for the corrosion in cartridges stored over a period of time...electrolysis.   

This is also part of the argument given by those in favor of plastic bags.  The plastic bag keeps moisture out of the powder.  I don't buy it.  Take plastic bag and put some powder in it , squeeze the air out and tie it shut and set it in the sun for a couple hours.   I'll bet you see moisture inside the bag. 

They also say that the plastic bag keeps moisture out of the powder if the foil is ripped when the tube is charged.  Okay, sounds good.  What the heck is ripping the foil and won't it rip the plastic bag also...and don't we mop the bore dry before loading?

There is another line in favor of the plastic bag, that I find more credible.  Some say the plastic bag keeps loose  powder from being trapped in the folds and wraps of tin foil and not burning, then flaring up when the foil is wormed out.  I don't know.  Sounds good to me.  I have never seen unburned powder trapped in the folds of the foil remanents I have wormed out. That doesn't mean it can't happen, it seems to reasonable to not happen.   The point was made to me once that the best opportunity for this to occuri was if you loaded cartridges before a match and drove a long ways the powder would vibrate into the seam.  Off all the reasons I have heard in favor of the bag this is the best. Still don't know if its possible.

I have always loaded in the plastic bag in the foil.  But only because when I first started shooting in Northern California and Southern Oregon it was required.  I got in the habit and haven't changed.   

Oh and yes my largest cannon is a 1 inch bore and uses plastic bags.

[KABAR2]

Someone raised  the issue about loading powder into a plastic bag is the possibility of a static charge..........

Why then does the industry that produces black powder pack it  bulk in heavy plastic bags?

I am making an assumption that they must have some knowledge in this area.

[Rickk]

BP is far from static sensitive. Also, when wedged between BP, which is highly electrically conductive given the large percentage of Carbon and graphite it contains, and aluminum foil, a charge just isn't going to build up. Even while loading there is no way to build up a charge with enough energy to ignite the BP. There are a couple test results on the web dealing with high energy electrical charges and the BP did no go off. A few picocoulumbs of static just isn't going to do anything.

The plastic bags do prevent the BP from leaking out of the foil cartridges. However, they become awkward to use in 1 inchers and such.

I personally use loose powder in by 50 cal, only foil in 1 inchers, but use bags and foil in my 2.25 inchers.

Rick

[Cat Whisperer]

Someone raised  the issue about loading powder into a plastic bag is the possibility of a static charge..........

Why then does the industry that produces black powder pack it  bulk in heavy plastic bags?

I am making an assumption that they must have some knowledge in this area.

I make the same assumption.

But there is in fact a LITTLE charge built up pouring any powder.  It is INCREDIBLY small AND the risk of it igniting powder is, unless someone offers evidence to the contrary, non-existent.

Were these FETs or CMOS chips the risk is very real - because it takes VERY little to damage them.