Author Topic: standard or bench primers  (Read 495 times)

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Offline gooser

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standard or bench primers
« on: March 02, 2008, 11:38:30 AM »
 Is there any real advantage in using bench rest primers or match, over standard ? I would think it would give pressure changes,velocity...etc.
 Is it because of more uniform ignition? I load for my .223 rem., 30-06, and 7mm Mauser.
 Thanks for your help.
 gooser   :)

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Offline Castaway

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2008, 12:20:16 PM »
In my opinion, unless you're tweaking the last 1/8" out of a rifle, match primers aren't necessary.  They are more consistent, but few of us can shoot the difference and few rifles will either.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2008, 01:20:09 PM »
They are more consistent, but they also have a thicker cup. This helps keep the primer from flowing back in around the firing pin hole in some rifles (cratering).
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2008, 01:35:51 PM »
According to my information the only difference between standard and benchrest primers is the BR primers is made on their tightest machines by their best operators.  And, of course, the price.  It's easy enough to check. Load up some ammo using BR primers and some using standard primers.  I doubt that you'll be able to tell a difference. Especially if you do it as a blind test (which is hard to do 'cause the BR primers have a little dimple or br on them). I've done it several times and can't tell a difference.
That said, when I'm loading match ammo, I use BR primers. ;)  'Cause you just never can tell for sure can you.

Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2008, 02:38:33 PM »
ive never noticed a difference
blue lives matter

Offline jhalcott

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2008, 05:42:54 PM »
  Back when I was ANAL over the accuracy thing ,I'd weigh my primers and cull the lite and heavy ones for plinking. I'd do the same with ALL components. Then I'd orient them when loading AND shooting them. I KNOW it gave me an edge in confidence. Wether it made any difference on the target ,who knows OR cares. If it makes YOU feel better to use the expensive primers ,do it! Once you have confidence, you can play around with other things.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2008, 07:35:39 PM »
I was first hand witness to this event. Probably 20 years ago or so, there was 3 of us at our local club, shooting and practicing for our regular IHMSA match's we held at our club once a month. One of my friends had set up a T/C Contender 10'' .357max with a scope just to shoot groups. All 3 of us had shot that gun, and was getting groups around an inch and a half at 100yds. Then, the groups opened up to almost 4 inch's. Try as hard as we could, none of us could get it under 3 inch's. Since we all had brought several guns each with us to practice with, we all went about shooting our different guns.
It wasn't till we were taking a break, getting ready to leave, when I noticed that my friend Bill's Contender, sitting next to his box of ammo. And then something caught my eye. The color of the primers had changed about half way thru the box. And when we looked back thru his targets, we figured that was where the change happened.
And all-though its been 20 years, and a whole lot more than 20 beers ago, this is what I remember. As was what was a hot set-up at the time, was, most of us were using Remington 7.5 B.R. primers in our 7br XP-100's. And there are a few loads for the .357max using that primer. Bill admitted that he had run out of whatever primer he started with, and switched to a different brand, to finish loading out the box. And from talking with reps from several different company's over the years at some major shooting match's, it's the consistency of the flash that makes the difference. The only way you'll be able to tell the difference, is to take the gun out and shoot it.   gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2008, 02:39:58 AM »
This is verbatim off of James Calhoon web site. Primers do make a difference especially in the smaller sizes. I recently shot a 22 Hornet with Remington 1 1/2 primers and the loads were mild- no problem. I loaded up some exactly the same only with WSPM primers and got immediate over pressure. I shot 3 rounds. On the first two; I got sticky cases and the primers were flattened more than on my other rounds with the Remington 1 1/2's. On the third shot the primer was flattened way out and had an immanent head separation. I pulled the rest of them down and discarded the 3 cases.

PRIMERS AND PRESSURE

 

by James Calhoon

(First Printed in Varmint Hunter Magazine, October, 1995)

 

In the course of talking to many shooters, it has become clear to me that the manufacturers of primers have done a less than adequate job of educating reloaders on the application of their primers. Everybody seems to realize that some primers are "hotter" than others and some seem to shoot better for them than others, but few reloaders know that primers have different pressure tolerances.

I ran into this problem myself when loading a 223 to the maximum. The primer I was using was piercing before the case began expanding at the head or reaching maximum pressure. How do you check maximum pressure without a laboratory pressure gun, you ask? To check maximum pressure on a given powder / bullet combination, measure the rim of the cartridge (at a specific point each time of the measurement) before and after firing. Cases don’t have to be new, just measured before and after firing.

Discovering Maximum Load By Measuring Case Head Expansion

This method works on bolt actions, but use with caution on falling blocks,like the Ruger #1, as there is no case head protruding from the barrel. In the falling block, the case is fully supported, allowing little expansion in extreme loads. When measuring the case head, readings must be accurately done in ten thousandths of an inch (.0001"). Don’t be afraid to check and double check your readings. If the case head grows more than .0001", you are overloading (going beyond the brass yield point) and eventually primer pockets will loosen up. A blade mike is nice, but a regular 0 - 1 mike in .0001" graduation is fine for measuring the rim. When using a blade mike, measure just above the extractor groove, in the same location every time. Use a scribed line as a marker. Take your time measuring. Do it twice to be sure, as .0001" is not much!

The trick to getting maximum, or at least knowing what maximum is, on your powder / bullet combination, is to reach maximum pressure (going beyond the elastic limit of the metal by only .0001" or .0002") and just back off 3 to 5%. It is best to work up loads in the hottest weather you’ll encounter while shooting. Hot weather means higher pressures (especially in the 90 degr. + temperatures). Be careful to work up in small increments when working with small cases, especially in 17’s. As a safety precaution, bolt action rifles should have liberal gas ports in their bolts, like the 98 Mauser or 77 Ruger. (See page 78 in the July 1992 issue of The Varmint Hunter Magazine on how to modify the 700 Remington for overload gas relief or see Gas Off Cure here.) Wear safety glasses.

When working with maximum loads, keep the bullet off the lands by at least .020". Pressures can really go sky high if the bullet is touching the rifling lands. This is especially the case with the "magnum" cases such as the 17 Rem, 22-250, etc. Roy Weatherby was a pioneer in this area. His big magnums incorporated free bore to remove the "pressure spikes".

Rifle Primer Dimension Chart
   
Manufacturer    Number    A         B              C
                                 Cup        Cup         Cup
                            Thickness    Diameter    Height
Small Rifle
CCI    400               .020"    .1753"     .109"
450                        .025"     .1750"     .113"
BR4                         .025"     .1755"     .109"
Federal 200              .019"        .1757"           .111"
205M                        .0225"    .1744"      .1075"
Remington    6 1/2    .020"        .1753"        .109"
7 1/2                         .025"     .1752"     .110"
Winchester    SR    .021"         .1750"         .109"

Large Rifle
CCI    200               .027"    .2112"            .118"
250                         .027"     .2113"     .118"
Federal   210              .027"        .2120"           .117"
215                             --          --              --
Remington 9 1/2    .027"       .2100"        .119"
Winchester LR              .027"      .2114"          .121"
Mag                          .027"     .2114"       .121"

Back to the main topic: pressure tolerance. I was getting primer piercing before I reached case overloading. I don’t know what prompted me to try CCI 450’s instead of the 400’s which I had been using, but I did. Presto! No more piercing! Interesting!? A primer that has a hotter ignition and yet withstands more pressure! That’s when I decided that it was time to do a dissection of all primers concerned. The chart above shows my results.

By studying the numbers, one can readily see which primers in the small rifle sections will withstand heavy loads. Primer cup diameters are all similar and appear to follow a specification, but check out the cup thickness in the small rifle primers (Dimension "A"). It is obvious that the thicker cups will withstand more pressure. Large rifle primers all appear to have the same cup thickness, no matter what the type. (As a note of interest, small pistol primers are .017" thick and large pistol primers are .020" thick.)

 

If you are shooting a 22 Cooper, Hornet, or a Bee, the .020" cup will perform admirably. But try using the .020" cup in a 17 Remington and you’ll pierce primers, even with moderate loads.

Considering that cup thickness varies in the small rifle primers, it is obvious that primer "flatness" cannot solely be used as a pressure indicator.

 

Another factor which determines the strength of a primer cup is the work hardened state of the brass used to make the primer cup. They are made with cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), which can vary from 46,000 psi, soft, to 76,000 psi tensile strength when fully hardened. Manufacturers specify to their brass suppliers the hardness of brass desired. I was not able to test primer hardness, but an educated guess says that a primer manufacturer would choose a harder brass in order to keep material thickness down and reduce costs.

I have not run into primer piercing with large rifle primers. They are all the same thickness and therefore are not subject to the same misapplication problems. Exceptions can be created if too fast a powder is used in a magnum type case. The

22 Cheetah is a primer piercer with fast powders as Barry and I found out!

 


What does all this mean to the reloader?

- Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win SR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers are also used in heavy handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.

- Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2.

- With large rifle primers all being the same thickness, choose a primer that makes the most accurate group, is the shiniest, cheapest or whatever, as they all have similar pressure capabilities.

Hope this clears up some primer confusion. If you wnat more information about primers, priming compounds, or even how to make primers, the NRA sells an excellent book called "Ammunition Making" by George Frost . This book tells it like it is in the ammo making industry.

 

Any comments call: Jim at James Calhoon Mfg.: 406-395-4079 (Mon. through Fri., 8-5 MST).
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2008, 06:05:14 AM »
So much for what I know (or thought I knew). I'll cut and paste that in my good info to have file. :D
Thnx

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2008, 06:56:01 AM »
beemanbeme

Its in the Links at the top of this forum , no need to copy & paste .  ;)

stimpy
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:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline Catfish

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2008, 11:16:40 AM »
   Over the years I have seen several thing concerning primers that have surprised me. As Gypsyman I have seen load with only the primer being different shoot all together differently and then the next load you try it with there will be no difference at all, you never know until you try. As La Otto had in his Calhoon post, you need to use cooler primers in small cases. With the Hornet it is especially critical because hot primers can unseat the bullet before the powder gets started burning a great variation in chamber pressure. I`ve used Rem. 6 1/2`s for several years with my .17 AH and had great luck with accuracy. With larger cases 06- size and up it`s less critical.
   Just for kicks I loaded the same load with 5 different primers for my .22-6mm. It was a case full of H-870 with the 80 gn. Sierra bullet. With the CCI BR-2 vel. was 3,168 fps. and SD 18. With the WLR vel. was 3,222 with an sd of 27. With WLRM vel. was 3213 and SD was 27. With Rem. 9 1/2. vel. was 3,186 and SD was 15. with FLRMM vel. was 3,223 and SD was 10. The groups were all close to 1/2 moa. I believe that the reason the velosities were so close is because the rifle has a 26 in barrel and with all of the primers all of the powder was being burned in the barrel. Still, it seems that 55 fps. is not enough.

Offline gooser

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Re: standard or bench primers
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2008, 03:14:43 PM »
LaOtto222,  wow,.... :o   very informative.thanks.
 This go's for all who helped out.
 thanks guys,
 gooser 
aim small miss small,
think small,miss not at all