Author Topic: Why did Winchester drop the Model 88? (Read 1834 times)

Ron T. · « **on:** July 09, 2003, 10:55:30 AM »

Being a "gun-nut" all of my adult life, it's embarrassing to admit I have never known WHY Winchester dropped their Model 88 lever-action rifle.

Although I never owned or fired one, the Model 88 always seemed to me to be a great rifle who's time had come. I felt it might become the "modern version" of Winchester's great Model 94, but stronger and more able to handle the higher pressure rounds like the .308, etc.

Does anyone actually know why Winchester dropped the Model 88?

Ron T.

eroyd · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2003, 11:51:08 AM »

From what I heard, the M88 was just to expensive to make. I see quite a few of them about the hunting camps. Mostly 308's like mine. Only a few lucky guys scored them in 358. Never seen one in .284.

Innovative action. Kind of a lever operated bolt action. Triggers aren't all that great though.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2003, 01:32:54 PM »

I believe eroyd hit the nail on the head. They were pretty expensive to make. I also don't think they sold as well as might be expected. I like mine except for the trigger; it feels like a sponge. But I've put up with it almost 20 years now. It would have been nice if the hammer were external, or if they had done away with it altogether since it has the bolt with locking lugs.

Sako made similar rifle. If I recall it was called the Finnwolf. Also a one piece stock. It went for a bunch of bucks more than the Winchester.

-Kees-

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2003, 02:59:17 PM »

I believe the expensive to make was Winchester's official line at the time.
If you recall it was killed at the time they were cutting quallity, and everything else to save dough, pretty much killed the company in the proccess.

My thoughts? Because some dumbass got hold of it! The 88 was one of their finest IMHO.

Ron T. · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2003, 03:46:26 AM »

Ahhhhhh... so the same thing happened to Winchester's Model 88 lever-action rifle as happened to Savage's Model 99 lever-action rifle... both manufacturers decided their short-action (.308 Win. length) rifles were just too expensive to make.

Whatta shame... :cry:

Thanks, guys, for your answers... now I "know" why.

coug2wolfs · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2003, 02:16:40 PM »

Quote from: John Y Cannuck

I believe the expensive to make was Winchester's official line at the time.
If you recall it was killed at the time they were cutting quallity, and everything else to save dough, pretty much killed the company in the proccess...

Yo guys! I kilt off a bottle of Jack D tryin to figger out why they do what they do, it just plain don't make no sense to me. I have had it in for Browning and Winchester both since National Fabrique bought them both. Quality has gone down on both, and Browning leads the way in the "Best there is" this year to relegate it to the boneyard next year for some other new whizz banger.

I'd like for some gun nut to explain the latest Browning horror. Way back I had a pair of 358 BLR guns. To be blunt, they BOTH sucked! I could not work the levers without 1.) Breaking my fingers, and 2.) Pulling the gun right off my shoulder! Then, a little while ago, they finally got it right. Man what a difference in the new ones. Flick BANG! Smoooth...it just plain works.

So what do the Morons at Browning do? Why they DUMP the current BLR and relpace it with the old version that sucked. Those people gotta be on somethin or are tryin to commit market suicide?

??

I know I'll get pounded on by the Brooooooooooning fanatics, but I just gotta vent on account of it just plain don't make no sense. My Bro-In-Law is a Browning fish, as is my wife. The BIL just hoss trades for a Browning A Bolt in 300 WSMN. The rifle kicks like 7 mules and the brass rotates 180 and stays IN the chamber while you try to load another one! Makes for a jamb that you gotta take a knife to to get it out.

"Gotta" be the thing needs some oil he says. Well no, that ain't right. You pay top $ to figger out why the fool thing don't work? The rifle spits out LOADED ammo just fine. Fire it and you get a mess about every time.

Now I gotta ask,WHY would anybody stay brand loyal to junk like that? To keep the Japs happy? I think we fattened up just about enough of them as well as the rest of them 3rd world clowns.

Seriously folks, a lot of folks on here are in the same age group, a time when guns were built here, and built well. There was a time when all bolts were compared to the pre 64 Model 70 Winchester, Heck, many still do! So what are we saying here, we can't build em like that anymore? Winchester sure can't.

Of them all, who is the ONE American Company that had em then, and still has em now? How about Remington. I remember the Rem pump when I was a kid, they STILL make em! They STILL make the auto loader, they STILL make the 700, and the Model 7 has been around for a long spell. The 870 Wingmaster has been around and STILL is in everything from 410 to duck murderin 3 an a half inch cannons.

To my eye the Remingtons have become cleaner, trimmer, just plain better lookin. They don't swap models every other year, and the prices don't cause you to pull a second mortgage to get one. Me, I like that in a gun company. They got enough variety to keep it interestin. You can get em in pretty wood, laminated affairs, and even plastic if you wanna use one as a back up canoe paddle

There, I feel better now

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2003, 12:24:33 AM »

IMHO the nice shiny new Remington 7400 is a POS!
These rifles are the worst jam -o- matic contraptions on the market (IMHO)
Now I know that there are exceptions, I also know of a LOT of these rifles that seem to be unfixable, even by several shops, including the service center.
Yes, Remington suffers from the same desease as the others!

There, I feel better too!

coug2wolfs · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2003, 02:59:30 PM »

Ain't there nothin left that works?

? Glad ya spit that out Johhny, fer a minute there I was gonna get foolish and get one a them Rem auto jammers

Ronald J. Snow · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2003, 03:43:39 AM »

I do not like autoloading big game rifles period. However, I will disagree with you about the 7400 being a jam-o-matic. The two models, 740 and 742, that preceeded the 7400 were certainly jam-o-matics of the first quality. When Remington first introduced the 7400 there was a problem with the extractors and this was taken care of quickly. I sell and service firearms for a living and do sell quite a few 7400's and have virtually no problems with them. However, let a handloader that is not well versed enter the scene and troubles arrise. Browning is not one bit better with their semi-auto rifles; as a matter of fact I see more Brownings than the 7400 Remingtons with problems (taking into consideration that I see many more Remingtons than Brownings). Both guns are good but they must be maintained well in order to function well.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2003, 05:42:49 PM »

Ronald J. Snow
If you're not seeing a lot of jammed Remington 7400's then you are a lucky man.
This topics, (7400's) has come up on several forums in the past year or so. The number of reports of this gun jamming, is simply astounding.
I have personal experience with two. Thankfully NOT mine.
The list of "repairs" on the one in particular was extensive. Never did cure it. He sold it.

Ronald J. Snow · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2003, 02:28:10 AM »

Let me tell you about an incident that happened about three years ago. A female customer bought her husband a Remington 7400 just prior to deer season. About a week later she calls and says the rifle is jamming just about every shot (this is with Remington factory ammo bought the same time as the rifle). I told them to return the firearm. They came in with the rifle and part of a box of ammo. I took the gun out back and fired it without any problem. Gave the rifle to the husband and it jammed every shot! Watching him fire the gun you could clearly see him "flinch". Had his wife and son shoot the rifle, no problem. I have seen this happen several times and just wonder how many of the "jamming" problems might be related to the rifle not being supported properly; have seen it many times while the rifles were in sandbags or other type rests. No matter what you do to the internals of the firearm it will not cure a problem like the one I mention. Like I said earlier, I do not like these firearms, however; many of my customers do and I have found it necessary to learn as much about them as possible. If I chose to hunt with a semi-auto I would go with either an M1 Garand or an M1A as they are about as reliable as you can get.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #11 on:** July 14, 2003, 11:59:32 AM »

Well, that is a new one. Never heard of holding a rifle differently making it jam.
I certainly agree, that the military semi's are no problem. I can't fathom why the sporting arms are so bad.
There are good and bad in them all though. We have a once a year hunter, he has a Browing Belgian made BAR in 270Win. Takes it out once a year. works perfect every time. rattles the damned thing like a machine gun at the range. To my knowledge, he has never cleaned anything other than the bore in the last ten years. (he has the nickname Rambo at camp). Cleans it once, and puts it away for next year.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2003, 12:03:54 PM »

I think we may get shot for thread hijacking.

hawkin50 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2003, 02:08:48 PM »

Yo John cannuck in Linsday town,you know that noisy smokey place about 40 km south of were I live.Hears a secret on how to stop those 742 and 740 remmy from jamin.First buy your self a good chamber brush.They use to supply them when you bought the gun.Secondly push out the two pin that hold the trigger assembly in the rifle,then hold back the action handle and insurt bush with some souvent on it and scrub the hell out of it.Then give the barrel a really good cleaning.Then remove the forearm stock and observe a small allen head screw on end of action bar at the front were the forearm screw threads in.Becarefully removeing as under this srew is a small ball bearing.Remove this ball but dont lose it.This is the orfice ball.you will also see the nozzel.Ok to clean the orfice hole use adrill #44 for the 30-06 calibber guns and a#38 drill for the nozzle.DO NOT USE A POWER DRILL TO TURN THE BITS,USE YOUR FINGERS DO NOT REMOVE ANY METAL. e.g.dRILL #S FOR THE 308 CALIBER ARE AS FOLLOWS ORFICE #38 DRILL nOZZLE #35. 280 REM oRFICE DRILL #50 nozzle38.The reason these guns jam is because the ofice and nozzle get dirty for burn powder and oiling the snot out of these guns also pieces of copper and lead and blocks the holes off ,witch afect the amount of gas throuht them which throws the timeing out of whack.Anyways give it a try ,I think you will see a differents in the way these guns work. Laugh of the day Exspert.EX is a has been and spurt is a drip under presure.lol.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2003, 04:43:51 AM »

hawkin50:

I'm unfamiliar with those numbers as they relate to drill sizes. Do you know how they convert to English or metric measurements?

John Traveler · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2003, 05:12:49 AM »

Those numbers are number-sized drill bits. There are also letter-size drills, and of course, fractional inch and decimal size drill bits.

I don't have my decimal/metric conversion charts handy, but as I recall from machine shop courses, the drill bit size system was designed to give overlapping coverage. That is, between the numbers, letters, fractions, and metric, almost every conceivable size is covered, withing a few thousandths of an inch.

HTH
John

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2003, 07:45:39 PM »

I'm also in the camp that says military rifles are becoming the best choice. With C&R surplus stuff and AK/FAL/HK/AR/M1 based rifles coming as much as they are and at the prices they cost, the only people left out are the ones in the non-semi-hunting states, like PA.

BTW, how do Marlin Lever actions compare?

John Traveler · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2003, 06:31:24 AM »

I saw your post on the other board asking why there aren't any lever-action .223 caliber rifles, and what about using surplus AR-15 parts to build a lever-action .223 rifle?.

I guess a good place to start answering your question is to acknowledge that the .223/5.56mm NATO is a high-intensity cartridge. That is, it operates at relatively high chamber pressures and produces stout bolt bolt thrust. Rear locking actions such as the Winchester M92, M94, M95, and Marlin M1894, M1895, etc are not suited for such cartridges because of action stretching, poor primary extraction camming, etc.

Front-locking, multi-lug, rotary bolt systems such as the AR-15/M16 design have been well proven to hold up to military use, but in civilian applications, a lever-action adaption using the M16 bolt carrier presents design problems (receiver thickness, length, weight, etc), and would be restricted to box magazine feed.

Secondly, a .223 caliber lever action would be wanted as a varmit rifle, and most lever actions are not capable of the kind of accuracy that would make them desirable as varmit rifles.

These are not insurmountable problems, but enough to make it really challenging and maybe impractical.

HTH
John

Enforcer · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2003, 06:45:01 AM »

All those problems are easily overcome in the Winchester M88,Sako Finnwolf,Browning BLR and Savage M99.A rebarrel or rebore in any of those lever masters would be no sweat.The 223 is nothing compared to those calibers they already come in.22/250,257 Roberts,243Win,284Win,308Win,358Win to name a few.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2003, 08:31:31 AM »

I'm thinking it would use an AR-15 rotary bolt and firing pin, AR-15 barrel (undrilled for gas system of course), and AR-15 magazines since all those parts are so common that they'd likely be cheaper than tooling up to manufacture them, and let AR-15 users have some common materials.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 13, 2003, 02:23:55 PM »

Just get a used original BLR'81 in .223 and be done. Can be tweaked to go under an inch with factory ammo easily.