be ADVISED " idaho changes

[captchee]

 To day  starts the commissions week long meetings on  big game  rules / seasons .
 Last night we had a pre meeting to go over the proposed changes  to the regulations  that the F&G is recommending to the commission  for approval
 Now , many of us reported last year that the we had been told  by the management director that if technologies were not reduce in our muzzleloading hunts they would reduce opportunity .
 This was pooopooed by many of the modern folks  who call the derector and were told that what they were being told wasn’t true and that  the removal of modern weapons last year was based on nothing more then a  bunch of traditionalists  making a fuss .
 Well folks , I have not had the chance yet to go over all the information but here is what  as of this morning I find . Concerning  the F&G recommendation from that management director concerning muzzleloading . The recommendation is for one season , no   separate traditional and modern areas .
 In the SW region which I currently am going over  we are looking at possibly “ if the commission accepts the proposal”
 Unit 39   general hunt gone , replace by  permit only   
39-1  reduction of 100 permits
39-2 reduction of 100 permits
39-3 reduction of 100 permits

Unit 33-1 general muzzleloader hunt converted to an unlimited permit hunt.  .
  while you are guaranteed a tag , you will be locked into that area and that area only . You will also pay a permit fee on top of the muzzleloading tag . As a permit hunt you will be locked into that hunt and  as we were told , you will not be able to participate in any other hunt  but that  area  and that time fraim
33-2 they  are wanting to extend the hunt by 6 days
All of  Units 33,34,35,36  will now be unlimited Controlled muzzleloader hunts for cows only .
IE permit hunts

 As I said  I have not gotten through all the regions yet  but we were told that  there will be  a loss of some  3 areas and a conversion to controlled hunts for another 5

 So I recommend to you that if your  effected or think you may be effected go  take a look at the Idaho F&G web sight and look  under your region  for more information .
 Again this is just what the F&G is proposing and does not mean it will be accepted by the commission . Their rulings is scheduled for  Thursday .
 But right now  it appears that the F&G is wanting to do just what they told us there would do yet told others  they wouldn’t
 So check you hunts , read the wording and if you don’t like what you see  and cannot make the public meeting on Wednesday the 5th place a call to the F&G, HQ  and tell them you want to make a  statement to be given to the commission  concerning this .
Also be advised that the meeting will be held down town not at the regular F&G meeting hall at the HQ building

Also know  that at the meetings in January  where the modern weapons were let back in  to legality , there was a push  with proposals being made to allow jacketed bullets as well as 1 and 2 power scopes .
 If you are against this and do not speak out , its going to happen . Maybe not this year  but it will happen

[mspaci]

It should happen, we should not be worried about what others like to use. We should just worry about what makes us happy. IMHO.  Mike

[Semisane]

It's my personal (and probably unpopular) view that state game departments should manage the harvest, not the weapon used.  There should be one season for everyone, bow, pistol, cartridge rifle, muzzle loader.  I hunt with all.  There's no reason a guy with a .54 flintlock can't hunt next to a guy with a 30-06.

[captchee]

well i wouldnt be against that fellas , " one season " but here is the problem . it conflicts with management.
 Here is  why . Lets say a unit needs a given reduction in game populations , how do you do that ? Open a general season with  30,000 hunters ? Nope you control  the numbers by specialty hunting .
 When that works no longer  you go to a permit only hunt but in doing that you now pay more  and not everyone will have the ability to hunt . So while you may be able to use  what ever weapon you want , you may not be lucky enough to get a tag so your still out in the cold .
OR left to drive 3 or 4 hours to a location that you can hunt IF you didnt get a premit

 When they go to unlimited draws / premits , what happens is you now are locked into one place . While the whole state may be open to hunt , your not going to because you have a tag for that one area . So now you just reduce your opportunity to  that  tags time frame .
Lets say something happens and  at the last minute you  have some family issue or  work holds you back . You just lost because your not hunting any later hunts either.
 lets also remember what  else here is verry common is closing of hunts at the last minute becouse of fires or fire danger . now where does that leave you ? you guessed it , not hunting
 kinda blows the whole idea of ' IJUST WANT MORE TIME TO HUNT " right out of the water doesnt it

 But lets say this doesn’t bother you , that’s ok if it doesn’t effect you now , it will shortly .
  Now I don’t use an ATV but a lot of hunters do , regardless of the weapon place on their handlebars . Have eather of you noticed the new ATV restriction . If not you should look at them because  not only are you locked into these permit hunts but your not going to use a  ATV , 4X4 or any other engine driven means to can access to many of these areas  . not a real problem for  some of use . BUt again i ask you , who is going to be  hunting ?   

So what’s better  requirements that you use a specific weapon and then hunt any and all areas that weapon is aloud  OR  use what ever  weapon you want but  be left standing on the side walk watching other hunters drive past  you  on the way to hunt or coming back with game in their trucks . there is no season of pop and beer cans so i guess you could use your rifle on those .


 now lets take that one step further  and understand that  there are also land ownr premits within those numbers . are you wiling to pay 3000 or more for one of them so you can hunt a week or 3 week season ?
 now what are you going to do when those land owner " like they already do here along the lower snake " tell you your not hunting my place with that weapon "
  we "our property " we a;ready do this " and i know alot of other bigger ranchers that do it as well . while the state can say you can use what you want , we can say no your not , not on my place .
 so where does that leave   things ? back to public lands  ahhhh but you forget  your not riding you bike into the back country  and your not taking your 4X4 down the logging roads .
 but ha maybe you got lucky enough to draw  but you know what , that 7X8 bull of a life time is standing on the wrong side of the road  for your premit   of which isnt good for another couple days .
 not to worry that car load of  out of staters behind you has a premit for that side of the road  and its open for them  becouse the paid the cash  so stand aside
 Think about it,  because it goes much deeper then  simple remarks can cover

 but you know what , its in your hands . as these changes dont effect me or the way i hunt one smidge .
 just letting folks know whats on the agenda  and  to say WE told you so .

[Semisane]

A lot of good points there captchee.  But heck, aren't all of them the same whether the hunter is using a bow, in-line, side-hammer, flintlock, or cartridge rifle?

[captchee]

take units 33-36 . do you know whay there is a muzzleloading  hunt in those units but not in others ?
 one reason ,  hunter numbers . by making it a muzzleloading hunt  the can  provide an opportunity , fill a management need  while at the same time reduce impact .
 However when we had two different muzzleloading   classifications , they could reduce those numbers even farther .
 Now “ Again just as they said they would do last year  ,  if they did not curtail technologies,,, again reminding you “
 The have removed this hunt and made it a permit only . Now this isn’t a general rifle hunt  its still muzzleloading .
BUT now  instead of hunting those units for a couple day and then going up to 39 and hunting there , your going to hunt that one place  and that one place only  regardless of what comes before or after .
 Now your going to say But its an unlimited  draw  yep it is but because  you cant hunt any other hunt , Not general season , not archery not any other muzzleloader hunt , you have just lost opportunity . Your time in the field of  5 months , is now down to 20 days .
 Do you see that ?.
 The way it was before  you had from the 10th to the 30th  all you had to do was  use a muzzleloader .
 In other units just use a traditional muzzleloader  and you would have been able to hunt  archery - late season , short range , general , what ever you like until you filled  your  tag .
So now because  folks don’t want to listen , don’t want to go through proper channels to make change , your getting this .
If this is  proposal is accepted  by the commission  and you  want to hunt muzzleloader in any of those units that will become  controlled permit  hunts  those are the only hunts your going to participate in .
 Now that wouldn’t seem to bad really if we had a state wide muzzleloading season . However we don’t . we only have select units and  many times only sections of units designated as muzzleloading .
 Now  folks can say , that’s not a problem , just make everyone hunt the general season .
Which by the way I do  with my muzzleloader , that’s all I hunt with .
 But here is the problem  as I explained above .
 Its management . When you have just under 100 thousand folks  hitting the field in  the general hunt . They have to start cutting back on those hunts  because of impact on the  resource . They already do this  now .  Have you taken a good look at the Draw ‘ permit only hunts  have you notice how many have  tag quotas ?
 The more people that get planted into the general season the more of these you will see . That’s how management works . Not all areas can  sustain  the hunter take of the general un restricted season .

 So now what happens , you have already lost you muzzleloading hunters , they are hunting general weapons ,  you now have lumped the archers there as well . Nothing is left , all weapons are aloud . So to cut back on the  impact to the resource whats the state do ?!!!!!! Draw hunts , permits. So now instead of getting 5 months in the field for big game , you get  in some cases 4 days , others 10 and other 15 .
Ohhhh you can use what ever you want  but guess what , your only going to use it  in those exact areas  .
 Something else you may not realize that’s in the wind is lottery hunting . Yep that’s right .
 You put in for a give area  and cross your fingers . Whats being suggested is something very much like Oregon now does for their deer hunters .
 So you may get a tag or you may not . You may  get your unit close to home or you may get one clear on the other side of the state .
 What does that boil down to , reduced opportunity  and for many NO opportunity .
 
Are you ok with that ? Because that’s the road we are going down

[Idaho Ron]

Region 4 looks like it will lose at least 75 ML deer tags. A open Spike elk hunt will become a  open ML cow tag. This will give a little more opportunity for ML in our area for ELK. I am a very disappointed that the deer hunting is being reduced. I need to look closer at the reductions like Cap said. Hey CAP, I guess we can say we told them so but it is not a victory I wanted to see. 
Ron

[captchee]

 no ron its not for me eather  . it would have been alot better to hold  and keep our hunt and possibly get more  hunts then loss so many or turn them into permit type hunts .
As I understand it there is supposed to be a couple new hunts up on the clear water but there are also others that I have been told  today now will also be closed that are not on the list of changes .
 They say this  is from a bad winter  but  its not propionate across the board with muzzleloading hunts taking the hardest hit ..
 I also wouldn’t mind it so much if we would see more modern folks  standing up at the public meetings proposing hunts . But sadly we don’t .
IMO if more folks got evolved , they would understand things better  and see where this leads
  We also wouldn’t have the problems  concerning folks NOT getting whats happening and why   

[Idaho Ron]

I heard today that another 125 tags might be cut from the ML hunts in Region 4. Not official yet but I am sure they will be gone. If that happens we will See a loss of at least 250 deer tags in our region. The guys up north that were complaining about not getting to use their guns will have to move over a little. We have a bunch of hunters down south here that are coming to get your deer, since our hunts will be gone.    Ron

[captchee]

The guys up north that were complaining about not getting to use their guns will have to move over a little. We have a bunch of hunters down south here that are coming to get your deer, since our hunts will be gone.    Ron

ohhh that you can bet on. thus the result will be higher hunter numbers and  higher take numbers which boils down to  more impact and  a chance that those season will become restricted in the future .
 Anyone care to guess WHY those muzzleloading hunts that were converted to short range hunts last year  are now back to muzzleloading hunts ?
1 reason. The numbers coming out of those areas according to that  regions  management director were un acceptable as far as take  and not able to sustain a continued  short range weapons  hunt   which aloud shotgun . Un restricted muzzleloader and archery all at the same time .

 Now officially they are saying that the intent always was to go back to just a muzzleloading hunt and that may very well be but it still doesn’t change the fact that these hunts were never short range weapons to begin with  because of the above 

[dmurphy317]

It sounds like Idaho is moving in the direction New Mexico went a few years back. We now have quota hunts for virtually all big game with each "season" being 5 days for most all of them. You can only hold 1 tag for each species, i.e. 1 deer, 1 elk, 1 antelope, etc. And that's if your lucky enough to draw a permit. No preference points either.You put in for a hunt based on the unit and time frame you want and each one has the type of hunting method allowed, i.e. archery, ML/archery or CF/ML/archery. All hunts are limited on how many tags are available and that number changes as needed for herd control based on mandatory harvest reporting and G&F herd surveys.

I'm not crazy about the complexity of this system but I do understand that under the old system of over the counter deer tags, not to mention the significant poaching issues here, the deer population was dropping like a rock and something had to be done to slow and hopefully reverse the decline.

My guess is that there are more hunters here in NM than in Idaho and there are probably more elk and deer in Idaho than in NM so the circumstances are not exactly the same but hopefully the herd management is the ultimate reason for any changes that come down the pike. I do think the pain should be shared across the board and not just by a select few.

[huntersmurf]

I am having a heck of a time finding anything on the IDFG web site, could someone post a like to the section that has the report on the game season proposals, please???

[Idaho Ron]

The proposals have been taken down from the front page. I assume it is because they were sent to the commission to decide. The meeting started today.  Ron

[torpedoman]

i really miss the days when  i could get up and decide to go hunting stop at the local hardware store get license and ammo and you were set for the season. I cant plan a hunt 6 months in advance send them a check and wait for a lottery draw to see if after all the planning i get to go hunting. they say fewer people are hunting than ever and i can see why with all the hoops. Sounds like you would have been ahead to give up the inlines and use the caplocks.

[huntersmurf]

Well isn't that interesting, I been hearing the same thing, hunter numbers are down. So why all the new regulations? Fewer people should translate into smaller harvest right??? So what the heck? Is the F&G just trying to generate more revenue? or maybe they are trying to make their jobs easier?? For sure the public and hunters aren't gaining anything are they?

[torpedoman]

JOB SECURITY. that and the old public service would be a great job if it wasn't for all these ****people wanting something. attitude

[captchee]

Well isn't that interesting, I been hearing the same thing, hunter numbers are down. So why all the new regulations? Fewer people should translate into smaller harvest right??? So what the heck? Is the F&G just trying to generate more revenue? or maybe they are trying to make their jobs easier?? For sure the public and hunters aren't gaining anything are they?

 good point smurf good to see you around as well .

 i cant speak for others states but i know here in idaho the catch seems to be the wording  IE hunter numbers are down " but down compaired to what ?10 years ago
 when you look at it  we find that   they are down when compared to population  but not down compared to numbers in the field

 they told us last year that IF they did not curtail technologies concerning muzzleloading , they would  cut more hunts .
 now their reasoning for that statement IMO was not and can not be substantiated . But never the less that’s what they said .
 Folks didn’t want to listen  and immediately pointed fingers at the traditional folks who  by the way  got our seasons here and in fact are the main voice in maintaining them ..

 This is really starting all over again .
 I heard a person last night  speak  who was very angered , exclaiming elitism and other  statements  claiming the traditionalist had  requested these changes  to exclude him from hunting .
 Folks , those of us who regularly speak to the F&g hand NOTHING to do with these changes . these all came from your buddy brad Compton and his management section . He is doing the very thing he said he would do .

 Now the president of the Idaho muzzleloading Association did say things about being a better hunter and such . But  when folks have not been to past meetings and don’t understand the context its easy to  misunderstand . What Jamie was speaking about is that we are about to propose a hunters safety course for  muzzleloading  so as to make in experience muzzleloading hunters or beginning muzzleloading hunter  some education concerning both modern and traditional weapon .

So if your listening “ The person im speaking of “  I wanted to speak with you after the meeting but cot cornered by the sportsman league and the good  house  representative that made a showing  .

I don’t know of anyone who is happy with the changes  that we are GOING to see .
 The sad part about this is  that  folks couldn’t see past their  dislike for each other  and understand what was truly going on

[huntersmurf]

Thats the kind of double talk I expect from the presidential debates but it has rubbed of on the F&G personnel.

[captchee]

 yep smurf , thats what happend . they tell you what they  think you want to hear  and then do what ever they are going to do  and iIF they think they can push the blaim of on someone else , they do it  with just a slight of hand

[huntersmurf]

Anything new on this topic???

[captchee]

well they have not release the official changes yet . Also at the  final vote nothing was discussed concerning the muzzleloading hunts or regulations . There were to many folks I thin standing , watching , and waiting to hold folks accountable .
So now we just wait , we should have things in writing here in the next couple weeks

[captchee]

Ok  they just released the regs , so here is what I have found.

General season elk
 We lost the saw tooth hunt all together
Island park they cut the hunt down by 15 days

Elk permit hunts are as follows
2126 50 permits either sex
2127 100 permits antlered only
2128 they took away 50 tags
2129 took away 40 tags
2130  went back to 2006 standing
2131 is a unlimited draw
2135 stayed the same  with no traditional designation

Deer 
 General season all stayed the same with one unit  #9 being added
Under controlled hunts they took away all of the 2006 and 2007 areas
But they added
1076, with 25 permits, white tail only
1077, 25 permits, white tail only
1078, 149 permits, antlered only 
1079 ,73 permits antlered only
1080, 125 permits either sex
1081, 30 permits antlered only
1082 , 125 permits  either sex
1083,  100 permits  either sex
1084,  75 permits either sex
1085 , Unlimited draw for either sex
1086,  50 permits either sex

 I have not gotten to any other definition changes yet as these are so far only posted on line and even on high speed DSL its taken 30 minutes and they still are not loaded up .
 When they do ill post them
 but basicly it looks like they went to just about a permit only muzzleloader hunt  but in the two northern regions where 80% of the complaints about last years changes came from .

so now i guess its time for the   rest of the states muzzleloaders to step up and start making calls  not only to the commissioners but the F&G and the governor  as well  your local representatives .
Ill post  those numbers in the next couple days

[huntersmurf]

I got their email last night and went and looked. In the Clearwater area it looks like about the same as before. The Dwarshak zone might have picked up an extra day for antlerless elk, but the rest, at least the units I hunt looks like before the pivot hammer rule.

[sabotloader]

huntersmurf

I printed off the stuff that concerned me, again here in the north, I guess I do not see any real changes, other than the whole state can now use "Idaho" legal inlines again  - which really offers no advantage over a legal pivot hammer ML gun other than familiarity.

The rules of ML hunting even make it more equal between the two guns by adding loose powder only, sights the same for each as well as the ignition source. 

With that in mind, what is the difference if you choose to shoot an "Idaho" inline or a pivot hammer?  Why does Captchee feel that caused a loss of hunts in southern Idaho?  I think that is what he is indicating is the reason for the loss hunts.

[captchee]

no sabotshooter .
 i think the state did just what they said they would do .
 the rules of lose powder and such , we have always had . nothing there changed . what did change was alot of the hunts are now permit only . so now you chose . because you put in for these hunts and get a tag , thats the only hunt your going to hunt in for that  animal .
what really happened is the went to  a chose your weapon style of hunt , really thats fine with me .  but wouldn’t it be better just to have an open season ? i think so .

but whats happening is the state is going down a road . they told us last year what they were going to do a group of folks didnt listen .
 to some these changes are looking mighty good because frankly the state just  took another approach  but achieved the same end result .
Again the two northern commissioners did their own thing. that’s Good . But  the past has shown that there are consequences for doing that .Mcdermitt learned his lesson last year  with his short range weapons fiasco. So this year he is treading more lightly but . But he is also ½ way through his term and soon will be replaced . So now with the majority of   general muzzleloading units up north    your going to most likely see an increase in  hunter numbers in those areas . That in itself isn’t a real issue untell you realize that also relates to a higher harvest .
If we take the states past actions into account concerning that we know  concerning muzzleloading that as those numbers increase  the state pulls back on the hunts . Which says to me that the  northern commissioners will have to fall in line . Thus there is a very good chance that those general units up north will very likely in the next couple years  also become permit only .
 In the above post I made , I only listed areas of change , some areas stayed the same .

 But here is what I recommend to you folks .  You should . No you better start taking a stronger role  with the department because  this isn’t the end . There are some other  substantial issues coming forward  both concerning muzzleloading and our general season hunts  that IF passed will be implemented over the next few years .
So you better start  going to the meetings and getting involved because frankly  as for myself , I been trying to tell you folks what im seeing , whats coming down the pike . But its like beating my head against the wall .
 So   when this next change happens , and your probably not going to like it any more then many of the archers did , 20 years ago. Maybe then you will get it  and see that  what these fellas were saying was true .
 Its time to stop only being concerned with what may or may not effect you in  your area and start looking at what  is happening in the rest of the state  and working on what will help ensure we keep our  general hunts . Because if you don’t , the end result will be that it WILL effect you . But your not going to see it until its to late .

But anyway you have been advised .  Take it for what ever you think it is . But just think about what im telling you , that’s all that I can do .
 Be safe fellas

[captchee]

OK  so be advised . when the idho fish and game put up the regs , apearantly they were having some problems  and the regs were not complete  so if you re check them now , they should load faster and are from what i have been told , complete .
take care

[Lawful Larry]

And I thought my state had problems!!!  You guys really have a mess to try and understand.  Good luck?