My Barnes TSX 375 Win Project

[handirifle]

I started this in the Marlin owners forum under the 38-55/375 group, but since they are temporarily (I hope) down I'll update it a bit here.

This has all come about due to the ridiculous new law here in CA about going non-lead as of July 1, 2008.  Since there are NO NON LEAD bullets available for the 375 leveraction, I did the next best thing.

I started with the Barnes 235gr TSX, meant for the 375 H&H and similar, I'm sure.  Since getting my mini lathe, this is now possible for me.  I cut about 3/8th off the tip to make it a flat nosed bullet.  From there I put it in the lathe, trued up the face and tapered the front half of the shank in front of the grooves.  This taper is to allow it to cycle in the levergun.  This came about through trial and error in my '94 BB.

I tried to simply true up the flat face and use that, but it wouldn't cycle into the chamber.  Thus the taper.  To TRY and get it to expand at levergun velocities, I used a starting drill to make it a hollow point that is approx 3/8" deep.

Here's a pic of a dummy loaded round that shows the taper.  This pic doesn't show the HP though.



In the pic you'll notice the bullet is crimped at the top groove.  I later discovered it is better crimped one groove down, so another groove is showing in the finished loads, giving more room for powder.

After going through a box of 50, I came out with 41 that are usable (learning curve destroyed a few ).  I weighed those with my balance beam scale and sorted into groups that are closest together.

Putting them in groups, next I'll load them up and take to the range.  From the original 235gr they now weigh in around 180, yes that much was removed.  I'd rather kept them heavier, but that would have meant no hollow point, at least on these bullets.  I want to see if they are indeed going to expand when shot into some medium.

I think I'll try milk jugs full of water.  It's impossible for me to have a place to set up a stack of newspapers to soak overnight to use, so I have to use something portable.

I figure I'll use the load data for the 200gr bullets and start my loads at the upper end of the 200gr chart.  There's a pretty consistent step up or down in powder to bullet weight ratio's so although I'll be ununcharted territory, using a 180gr bullet, but it'll be a safe calculation.

since my less than max loads (using Hodgdons load data for the 375 Win) were producing velocities in the high 2400's and low 2500's with the 200gr bullet, I'm guessing 2500-2550 should be possible.  More would be nice.  IF I managed 2600 that would put it side by side with the 308 Win and a 180gr bullet.

Since the square of the base of the 375 bullet is much larger than the 308 and the two rounds are both SAAMI rated to the similar pressure, in THEORY I should be able to exceed the 308 velocities, but I do not plan to push it that hard.

I'd love to see Barnes make this bullet, since I'm sure expansion and weight would most likely be much more consistant, but this will keep the BB from being a safe queen as far as hunting goes.

Will post an update, when I get to the range.  Fighting a bit of bronchitis tonight so I need to rest.\ and let the meds do their work.

update
This pic SORTA shows the hollow point, but not to well I'm afraid.  also this bullet was a VERY rough first or second try.  Some of the learning curve I mentioned.

[McLernon]

Where there's a will there's a way.

Good stuff Handirifle

Mc

[handirifle]

Well loaded up 20 rounds tonite, starting at 37 and working up to 38.5gr of H4198, in .5gr increments.

Will have to wait for range day to see what happens.  looking for accuracy and velocity.

I'll also get some more black powder 38-55 loads going and take it as well.  Want to see how well it does with the Dixie scope mounted.  I think I'll put the Target model stocks back on just for show.

Will give a full report on everything when I do.

[handirifle]

Let me post an update, that I copied in full from the Paco Kelly's levergun site where posted it first.
*********************
Since Barnes doesn't make TSX bullets for the 375 leverguns, and since Kalifornia made it illegal to hunt with lead bullets, in much of the state, starting july 1, I had to come up with something on my own.

So a month or so ago, I started a project and with the help of Marlinowners 375win (known here as NewPighunter) I began work on it.

The first donation came from Barnes themselves. They sent me 5 of the 375 cal 235gr TSX bullets. I did some experimenting on my new lathe. After ruining 3 of the 5, I found a solution. I posted my info on MO's forum and was waiting till I got the funds up to buy a box for my experiment. NPH came through with a donor box. He'll be somewhat compensated, but can't say how, as I do not want this to seem like a payment or as if I'm trying to sell anything here. Just wanting to do research for other levergunners in CA.

Anyway, I finally finished lathe turning all but a few of the new box. Some were messed up as part of a learning curve. Of those, some were loaded by me and tested, some will be returned to the donor and some will go the Barnes, for a hopeful project they will undertake.

Let me start the range report with load data.

The 235gr spire point bullets were not suitable for use in leverguns, so I cut the tip off (about 3/8") and trued up the new, flat nose. Next, and this is where some of the experimenting went on, I cut a new profile for the nose.

I loaded up a dummy round without changing the nose profile, to see if it would feed in my Win BB, but it would not. It would chamber, but the sharp nose got caught and wouldn't feed into the chamber.

So I profiled the nose to a more round ogive. Some of the bullets, as you'll see in the pic, were given a straight taper. Both designs seemed to feed without issue. All bullets came out at or near 185gr.



The two designs are shown above next to a 200gr factory loading, for profile and COAL comparison.
Edit:  I prefer the one on the left, personally and it will be my design goal.

After the profile was cut, I used a machinists starter drill and drilled the center of each bullet out to a hollow point of approx 3/8" deep to allow the bullet to expand, since cutting off the tip removed the main section designed to initiate the expansion. The Barnes rep seemed concerned that a flat nosed bullet might not open up, so I addressed this issue with the hollow point.

Next I loaded 16 rounds using H4198. Using the Hodgdons load data for the 375 Win, they list a max charge of 38gr of 4198 for a 200gr bullet. Noticing a distinct pattern of charge increase with coresponding drop in bullet weight, I decided it would be safe to start near the max 200gr load charge, with the lighter 185gr bullets.

I started at 37gr and went up in .5gr increments to 38.5 to test for accuracy, and velocity. Here are my results.

The test rifle is my model 94 BB Winchester, chambered in 375 Win. Range was 50yds, with Williams FP peep sight, with which I'm not a great shot. Field elev approx 3000, temp 68 deg, wind calm.

Here are the posted velocities, the most accurate of which seemed to be the 37gr.

Bullet Barnes TSX, 185gr
Powder H4198

37.0gr

2438
2389
2458
2391

Avg vel 2419

37.5gr

2408
2427
2457
2469

Avg vel 2440

38.0gr

2485
2474
2511
2503

Avg vel 2493

38.5gr

2530
2501
2512
2524

Avg vel 2516

Here's a pic of the 37gr load.

 

As you can see three shots were very close and the forth a flier. One thing I DIDN'T do, wish I had, was grouped them into nose profile groups, to see if that made a difference, duh.

The squares in the target are 1".

I plan on doing the same thing, eventually, to the heavier offerings for the 375 and on some of the heavy 458 dia bullets, so something heavier than 300gr in non lead is available for my 1895GS.[/b]

[handirifle]

OK, the 270 and 300gr bullets arrived, as mentioned.  This afternoon I did a few to see how close I got in my weight guess.  It turns out the 270gr TSX came out right at 220-223gr, and the 300gr TSX came out at 255gr, finished.

I guessed pretty close.  I have lots of pics to show and will explain as I post them.



The image above is a side by side comparison, which I never did before.  Thought you'd like to see how it started.  On the left is the finished 220gr bullet, next to the 270gr it started as.  Then the 255gr next to the 300gr that IT started as.



Next we have the 250gr Hornady bullet I made from the 270gr spire point, and wrote about in my article, on my website.  The center bullet is the 225gr finished and the far right is the 255gr finished.



Here's a pic of the three above laying on their side.  Note, the cannelure of the Hornady, lines up with the groove in the TSX's where the case is crimped.  This gives you a look at how much bullet is down in the case.  Please note the 225gr TSX is the same, in the case, length as the Hornady.  This gives me ideas along the lines of Paco's loads and the 38-55 case, but for the purposes of these tests, I'll stick to 375 brass.



Here's a pic of the three side by side, along with another one laying down to you an idea of the hollow point.  It's .330" deep and about .250" wide at the mouth.



and one last pic with the three laid out on a piece of paper, labeled.  I may get a chance to go this weekend for a pig, I hope it works out.  I will definately take pics and post results if I do.  Also 375win may get out on April 15th for the same.

Let me tell ya folks, these were BIG bullets when I started.  I'd like to see how they perform from the factory out of a 375 cal bolt gun into big game.  That 300gr bullet from something like a 375 Taylor (338 Win Mag necked up to 375) would be devastating on even an Alaska Brown Bear.  It's a LONG bullet too.

[handirifle]

Well spoke with a Barnes rep (via email) and he says he doubts Barnes will make the TSX for the 375, "but you never know" was his coverall phrase.

On the good side I got some tips from him and will try to incorporate then in my design.  I also got some good feedback for testing performance of the bullets.

Will post on that when I get out again.

[handirifle]

OK more data for everyone.  I copied this from the Marlin owners forum, cause I want to give credit where due.  a poster named "PB" over there made a suggestion, and I followed up on it.  here's the result. 

I hope you like it.
Handi

Back to the Barnes bullets for a second.  I don't think I would be too happy with the BC #'s you are getting.  Is it possible to cut the rear off the Barnes bullet to bring down the length and then the tip off the nose. Pb

PB I think you're a genius!

Well got to thinking tonight about what you'd said (above quote) and during a movie the wife and I were watching, it hit me, so when I got home, I put one in the cutting template and cut the base down a bit, turned it around and cut off the tip.  Smaller portion off the tip.

Well a couple things became VERY obvious.  First, there's no more doing the ogive on the lathe, so repeatability is WAAAY less of a problem.

Second, the nose is obviously longer and sleeker which has to bring the BC up (it does, more on that later).

Third, it's FASTER to do it this way, DUH!  I'm glad I posted this project on here, cause sometimes we can't see the forrest for the trees, but you did.

OK I have lots of pics to show you guys and will try to explain as I go.  I'm REALLY excited about the "new" design.  I think we have a final design here that will do it all.

First, let me regress (and tease you guys a bit) earlier I mentioned my cutting template.  This is the one I made from 3/4" aluminum bar stock.  here's a pic of the one for the 270gr bullet (laying down) and the one for the 235gr bullet.  On both, they are drilled to .378 and both have a 1/8" hole through the rear, to allow me to push them out after cutting.  Mostly they fall out, but not always.



OK, next is the latest generation, cut like PB recommended, next to the version, I THOUGHT would be the easiest of all to make.  by the way, the one on the left weighs 215gr and the new one (right) weighs 203.



Next, I have the previous two, next to the Sierra 200gr SP.



Next is what the new gen bullet, loaded, along side the previous generation.  At first look, you'll notice the newer bullet, just plain looks better.  In addition, due to the longer nose, it's seated down to the first pressure groove.



I haven't tried this in function, but will, and have no doubts about it working.  If, by chance it DOESN'T  , I will post.

One last pic, since I mentioned my 223 case BUB bullet (butt ugly bullet) filled with no lead solder, here's a pic of it too.  Keep in mind, this is a first prototype, with no real swaging done, so ogive is pretty much non existant.



Oh, yes, the BC of the new design, is .146.  Not terrific, but better than the old one.  Before you ask, the nose is better left empty in this design (I asked Barnes) to allow body fluids to fill the cavity, and force open the nose petals, which by the way, are left way more intact than the other designs.

Hope y'all enjoy.

[toecutter]

Thanks a bunch for all the info. I love to see the progression of new Ideas.  Surprised not to see more replies to this thread, but for what it's worth, I think it's real cool.

Thanks for sharing. Nathan

[handirifle]

Thanks, it's starting to come along nicely.  One person I deal with has gotten excellent accuracy from his Marlin 375.  A virtual clover leaf of 4 shots at 50yds, using the 185gr versions.

I've tried the 235, 270 and 300gr TSX bullets, modified.  So far it's looking like the 300's are just going to be too long, even cut down, but I will see.  The 235's and 270's seem to have the most potential for practical use.

The 235 will finish up around 180 in the newer better version, and the 270 will come down to about 200.  Both good choices, but the 200 is most likely going to be the hot ticket, I think.

I would like to end up with a usable 220gr bullet that isn't too long to obtain productive velocities.  That is my major concern with the 300's.

[handirifle]

Looking now, at the new design, I believe the same, or very close bullet weight, in a usable length, can be had by just cutting the nose off the 235gr, and reaming a small hollow point into it.  The 235gr bullets are cheaper too.

I'm beginning to wonder, just how small of a hollow point I can get away with and still have it open.

Once I get a usable bullet stop made, I'll test them for opening at very slow velocities, trying to simulate a long range impact.

I'm thinking sub 38-55 starting loads, trying for 1000fps or less at impact.

[handirifle]

OK, been busy tonight.  I don't want to come across, on these posts, like there isn't an idea I haven't come across.  I know several times there've been suggestions and I've said, "I thought about that", but believe me, it's true.  Anytime I have a spare moment in my head, this stuff is on my mind.

LOTS of ideas have come and gone, some because I wasn't sure they're doable (by me anyway) of practical, or how much the effort is worth.

Anyway, tonight I made a couple with the boattail design.  Doing them AS IS, with my skill and equipment, is not practical.

OK let me begin, I measured the BC occording to this web site http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/calcbc/calcbc.htm#jackets
The same one I've used on all my measurements and I measure the Barnes TSX 270gr, in original form, at .316.  Barnes rates the BC at .503, so it looks like my suspicions at first, were right on.  I do not believe it's taking all things into consideration.

I'll just have to find a more accurate way to measure it, later on.

OK, first the pics, then details.





The top pic is (left to right), the original 185gr version, then the previous generation 3 203gr version, except this one has been boattailed.

Next is what I think will be the newest model of the 235gr, (Gen 4?) but this one has a boattail (BC of .169 according to the website) and weighs 195gr.  This was made from a 270gr, but based as close as possible to how I think a 235 would turn out, in the Gen 3 version.

I added the boattail based on suggestions.  By the way the bullet LOOKS butchered, because it is.  It's hard to trim that boattail and it jammed the lathe several times, which gouges the lands on the bullet.  This is something that can be worked out, but it always happens in the first versions.

The next bullet is the 215gr gen 2 model, and lastly, an original 270gr Barnes TSX, for a comparison of just how much it's been modified.

The bottom pic is of the (left to right) the 185gr, the 203gr and the 195gr bullets, and a loaded round, primer end, with the open point facing you. 

The open tip of the 195gr is .183, the OD of the tip is .225, and the dia of the primer is .210.  Not enough difference, to me, to warrant concern over detonation.  Please let me know, your thoughts on that one.

The ID of the Gen 3 is the same, OD of the tip is .250, for reference.

[Chris Potts]

I seem to remember seeing a sight where you could put in the velocity of a load a two know distances and it would give you the BC.  It looks like you have a chronograph, so it might be a workable option.  I think that is may have been beartooth bullets.

Chris

Found it http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/BC/index.html

[handirifle]

Yea, I will have to measure it that way, cause it doesn't seem accurate this way.  more later.

[SharonAnne]

Handi, I applaud your ingenuity and hard work. I do question your need for a hollowpoint and desire for expansion. Many smaller calibers would love to be 0.375 after mushroomiing. Have you looked at muzzleloader sabots? You might find a 0.375 bullet in a sabot. Just a thought.

[handirifle]

Handi, I applaud your ingenuity and hard work. I do question your need for a hollowpoint and desire for expansion. Many smaller calibers would love to be 0.375 after mushroomiing. Have you looked at muzzleloader sabots? You might find a 0.375 bullet in a sabot. Just a thought.

That may well be, but I'd feel more comfortable with it and besides, the CA law will most likely specify and expanding bullet.  It did before.

Thanks for the appaluse!

[handirifle]

OK a little bit of a range report.
Here's a pic.


There's more detail on this thread, so to try and save GB SOME HD space I'll just comment on the TSX bullets here.

The Gen 2 version performed very nicely.  It's the one on the right.  The Gen 3 is the formerly pretty one, now on the left.  Barnes suggested I find a way to score them to aid in opening.  I will definitely HAVE to do that.

Even the Gen 2 version could use a little more help.