Author Topic: Kabar's amazing unknown conversion? breechloading strap gun on Long Island (Read 3060 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** March 04, 2008, 02:49:03 PM »

This was brought up by Kabar on the "railroad axle" discussion, but since there's so much new info I'm starting another discussion. Please go look at some of the photos in the long list of photo links in this Ebay discussion, and see if you've ever seen any drawings of this gun, I sure haven't. Maybe someone will recognize the unusual rifling, and we can tell if this was a conversion attempt or not.

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?messageID=2009559655&#2009559655

lance · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2008, 03:44:52 PM »

Darn! Been waiting all day to see KABAR2's captured Confederate Breechloader. Cool looking cannon pics anyway, any leads are worth checking into.Very interesting cannon for sure!!!

KABAR2 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2008, 03:48:59 PM »

Cannonmn,

Well I see after 12 or so years my memory is not as sharp as I thought it was........ $:-\$ no turn screw at the rear....... But still a interesting design and a full size field gun to boot!
I am not sure that this is a conversion, if you look at the trunnions you will see that the square area that the "U" band attaches to is cast to the barrel which would seem to indicate purpose built.

I am still trying to find the issue of CW Times that had a photo of a gun like this on the back cover, if anyone has a collection of back issues it would be from the 1970's.

I have saved all 13 photos for further study, and have posted a few here so that you can see some of the detail with out opening every link on the other thread. Edit I removed the photo's
I added rather than have them doubled, and save some band width. just leaving the one showing the casting I was talking about.

notice the rough cast square at the trunnion area.

Allen <><

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2008, 04:08:30 PM »

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2008, 04:34:15 PM »

OK you machinists get busy, I want to see some 1/3 scale working copies of this thing pretty soon! They don't have to be exact, you can change the paint color if you want.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2008, 04:45:30 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 04, 2008, 04:34:15 PM

OK you machinists get busy, I want to see some 1/3 scale working copies of this thing pretty soon! They don't have to be exact, you can change the paint color if you want.

I'm already trying to work out the camming & lock up from the lever to the chamber............ I need to get some lathe time........ the band is simple enough, just have to figure out how the two tabs on top key it into the trunnion.........
I'm thinking they were concerned with the band getting loose and that is why there are the turn screws on each side to tighten things up.....

I always found that gun intriguing but could never get back there for photo's and another look.

Allen <><

cannonmn · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2008, 10:20:56 PM »

Allen, check the Ebay board again, the photographer wants some town and road names to find the items you mentioned.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2008, 03:18:52 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 04, 2008, 10:20:56 PM

Allen, check the Ebay board again, the photographer wants some town and road names to find the items you mentioned.

I'll do that, But first I'll have to think about it some.... I haven't lived on Long Island since 2000,
and town names start to blend as to what was where....
Its funny the town of Huntington has a big Civil war cannon and their history is mostly Revolutionary war,
The church in town has a weather vain still scared from bullets fired at it by British soldiers for target practice during that time.
I'll ask Larry for a little help on places to check in Nassau County,
I was from Suffolk County and know the east end of the Island better
than the west.

Allen <><

cannonmn · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2008, 04:42:35 AM »

>know the east end of the Island better

You sure did. I think of my good luck in that direction every time I look at the little Spanish cannon you located in that area. I guess I told you I had seen it years before when I visited the man, but he had no desire to sell it then. It was just sheer coincidence that you found it and put me together with it.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2008, 06:16:37 AM »

That elderly man, was a member of our gun club, some thought him a gentleman, others a scoundrel, I thought no ill of him, he was more apart of
Long Islands "local color" or "character" He bought and traded for many years and got quite a bit from Bannerman's.
Among his other interests on the farm was a weather reporting station of sorts from where the local weather was reported to local news networks for more than 50 years.
I don't know if he is still alive he was getting on in years when I bought the cannon through a third party,
but it was nice to have it for a time, and I am glad it went to someone who cares enough about its history.

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2008, 02:08:14 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 04, 2008, 10:20:56 PM

Allen, check the Ebay board again, the photographer wants some town and road names to find the items you mentioned.

John why don't you invite the photographer over here to join the discussion.

cannonmn · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2008, 02:38:35 PM »

will do

KABAR2 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2008, 03:08:53 PM »

I found it !!!!

It was in the January 1967 Civil War Times Volume V number 9 back cover.....

info in the magazine:

"THE BACK COVER features two photographs of a mystery cannon.
The photos are form the Army Ordnance Museum at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds.
Colonel G.B.Jarrett, the founder and for many years director of the museum, reports
that he has not been able to verify any facts about the curious-looking breech-loader.
He and other experts feel that the photo was taken at the Tredegar Iron works in
Richmond, however."

It would appear that the lever on the side is for locking the breech closed, and that the actual
levers that move the breech would fit into the squares on the gun, which are now lost to time,
if you look at the modern photo there is a pin that would act as a stop for the levers when the breech is raised
on right side of the gun, the photo detail also shows the studs on top of the the trunnion caps but due to the resizing here
it does not show well. also the stud at the rear of the barrel for the rear sight is still present in the modern
photos.

So I finally found the period photos and confirmed this is a Civil War breed-loader. (still unknown confederate? & in need of research)

Cannonmn, thank you for finding someone (cheframsay) to get the photos, this was a team effort
I should have gotten back there with the magazine years ago and confirmed my suspicion. but never
had the time. Cannonmn, and anyone else who would like me to send them the full size images feel free
to pm me with their email address.

Allen <><

cannonmn · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2008, 03:50:32 PM »

Great! Take a look at the upper right, there's what appears to be a Rodman or Dahlgren gun, big one, in the background. That might help tell for sure where the pic was taken.

lance · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2008, 04:41:51 PM »

Karbar2, i'm very interested in this cannon and think it's worth doing research on,you know i like Confederate stuff. Not trying to cause problems here,but the clothes the guys are wearing in the black and white pictures don't look right to me. Those suspenders on one guy,look like the clip on type that were invented in the 1890's. Hard for me to tell from the pics,anyway wish i could see better pics.Are the guys in the pictures supposed to be Tredegar workers? or more mordern guys showing how the cannon works?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 09, 2008, 05:08:57 PM »

Lance not an issue, I try to look for items that prove or disprove the era also, one thing to consider
at the end of the civil war any cannon left in Richmond would have been under Federal control, an oddity
like this would have been taken as a prize, and latter given away for a memorial, most likely by 1880/90
it was already on Long Island. if you like give me your email address and I'll send you the larger photo's

One thing to note the vests that are worn have a rounded lapel that for the most part I believe had disappeared by the 1890's

There are things that happen with photos.....

1 scan of a reproduction of a photo some detail is lost.
2 size reduction by this site makes detail is hard to see
3 how the original photo was embellished/retouched when made, some times details were added with paint, buttons etc,

I looked at the photo on the magazine and they appear to be suspender buttons.

I am writing the Army Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen about the original photo's in their collection, I will be up that way
in may and will see if I can arrange to view them and or get reproductions of them. perhaps there is something written
on the back that led them to believe they were from the tredeger Iron Works.

If it can be researched and shown that this cannon is Confederate and from Virginia it would be nice to see it returned home and restored
instead of sitting forgotten in the weather on Long Island.

Allen <><

lance · « **Reply #16 on:** March 09, 2008, 05:17:18 PM »

Karbar,i'll PM my e-mail for the pics,maybe i can see them better.This is the kind of stuff i really like,tracking down history! Wishing you the best luck at the museum in May.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 09, 2008, 05:56:14 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 09, 2008, 03:50:32 PM

Great! Take a look at the upper right, there's what appears to be a Rodman or Dahlgren gun, big one, in the background. That might help tell for sure where the pic was taken.

Cannonmn,

Is it possible that some where in one of the archives you frequent there may be a list of ordnance captured in Richmond or better yet the Tredeger Iron Works, maybe the breech loader and the Rodman or Dahlgren would be noted on there. It could pin it down. could we get that lucky?

Also I just discovered that the tredeger Iron works is still there as a museum! It could be possible to compare the photo to the existing buildings and see if the match..... I will contact them and see if they know anything about the Aberdeen photos if not hopefully they have a administrator who is interested in history and its not just a job. Maybe we'll have a
source of info. and a possible new home for that gun.

http://www.usa-civil-war.com/Tredegar/tredegar.html

I have sent off an email to the museum to see what they say.

Allen <><

Victor3 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2008, 12:46:48 AM »

I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert in these matters, but isn't that Abraham Lincoln there on the right helping to load the gun?

cannonmn · « **Reply #19 on:** March 10, 2008, 01:15:43 AM »

We could tell more if we could read the labels on any of those cone-top beer cans lying around, as the poster here suggested:

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=2000532364&tstart=0&mod=1205146382797

I enhanced the photos slightly and posted them on the other board to see what they come up with. I've been pleasantly surprised at that group, their collective perception and experience has come up with some answers to "needle in haystack" questions in the past.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2008, 02:36:33 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 10, 2008, 01:15:43 AM

We could tell more if we could read the labels on any of those cone-top beer cans lying around, as the poster here suggested:

Cone top beer cans? $:-\$

I thought those were solid shot modeled on the reed shell with the copper band at the base........ even back then most cannoneer's knew artillery and beer don't mix.........

Check your email I am sending you the full size images.

Allen <><

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2008, 03:25:35 AM »

I thought what the other person said about the "beer cans" was funny, I shoulda put onna dem smile faces on it but I don't particularly like those things, they're everywhere..

KABAR2 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2008, 05:02:52 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 10, 2008, 03:25:35 AM

I thought what the other person said about the "beer cans" was funny, I shoulda put onna dem smile faces on it but I don't particularly like those things, they're everywhere..

lance · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2008, 03:24:25 PM »

Karbar2, i got the pictures,thanks for sending them. i couldn't do much with them,so far cannonmn's enhanced pics are the best i've seen. Suspender man just looks out of place to me, he looks like he is from the early 1900's. All i've been able to find in my book collection is the suspenders in my 1900 Sears and Roebuck catalog,it shows 12 models all with buttons,a few models like the guy in the picture. Now i'm not saying that's when the picture was taken, i'm saying that's all i could find. My main question is: did anybody see those pictures in the 1967 magazine and write in with any info? Seems like someone would have done some research back then, or has the subject been left alone for the last 41 years? In another civil war book i have i did find a cannon that i think might open the same way? yellow highlighter points to what i think is a similar type of rising breech? The picture goes to prove that some strange cannons were made back then. You should be able to zoom this picture:

cannonmn · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2008, 04:41:34 PM »

If you look real close at the big guy on the left, his white coat has his name, "Bubba" embroidered on the left pocket.

(insert little yellow face with idiotic grin here)

cannonmn · « **Reply #25 on:** March 10, 2008, 05:02:41 PM »

But, seriously now folks,

Look at this thing. It looks different in the drawing, but if you figure out how it works, it works same way our New York specimen does, breech pivots up on its own axis. What do you bet they patented the concept and the physical implementation of the prototype changed from the original drawing, as it often does in the old patents.

http://tinyurl.com/39muz5

cannonmn · « **Reply #26 on:** March 10, 2008, 05:33:42 PM »

Beaupre, Metropolis IL, 1868:

http://tinyurl.com/yns7vt

KABAR2 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 10, 2008, 05:38:56 PM »

After looking at the photos of the breech open & the drawing Cannonmn supplied
I am thinking these inventors enlarged the Hall breech loader to cannon form,
along with its gas seal issue. the gap on both guns are not set up to force the
breech against the barrel, there would be a good amount of gas escaping between
the breech and barrel. I doubt that an ordnance officer of the time in question
would look favorably on that.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 10, 2008, 05:52:02 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on March 10, 2008, 05:33:42 PM

Beaupre, Metropolis IL, 1868:

http://tinyurl.com/yns7vt

Good work Cannonmn!

It sure looks like it! Unfortunately it shows a patent date of 1868 so it is a post Civil war design, I doubt he built it during the war and waited till three years latter to patent it.
It would have been nice to have discovered a rare long forgotten Confederate cannon, but it is still a link to the thinking of breech loading design, how it ended its days as part of
a memorial on Long Island is anyone's guess. I will still see if I can see the original photos, when I get up to Aberdeen, perhaps there is some info written on the back as to why
the "experts" of the time suspected it was from the Tredeger Iron Works.

cannonmn · « **Reply #29 on:** March 11, 2008, 02:24:28 AM »

Call ahead before you waste any time at Aberdeen museum looking for old documents. Last time I did that about 2 years ago, I got a long story about how the National Archives came in waving a stack of public laws or something, and demanded that the old stuff be turned over to them, which of course it was. They have a small library with a few dozen books in it, but there's nothing much in the way of old documents. You can talk to my friend Elliot Deutsch, who also is an officer in the local Mil. Vehicle club and you may know him from the annual rally at Aberdeen.