338-06 vs 35 Whelan vs 9.3x62

[northern hunter]

  hey guys what ya think about these calibers for moose,deer and bear? i reload so that is no problem.Moose could be out to 300+ but deer and bear under 100 most of the time.What weight of bullet would you use?i have a T3 that i can rebarrel for around $250I know that the 338-06 works great,took a real nice 12 pointer last fall with one but ended up selling it.
Anyhow let the games begin...........

[Mckie Hollow]

One of each would be fun!

[lgm270]

Personally I like the 35 Whelen best of all.  It has a  great selection of bullets today, unlike in the past.  I think ammo would be more easily obtained for the 35 Whelen than the other two you mentioned.

[burntmuch]

I just started shooting a 35 whelen. From what Ive read it looks like the barnes tsx bullets are hard to beat.

[deltecs]

Since reloading is not a problem, neither is ammo availability.  So the choice is yours.  I prefer the .338-06 over the Whelen on shots out around 300 yards.  For brown bear, I'd prefer the .35 Whelen or 9.3 Mauser.  Heavier bullets in both of these rounds can be extremely effective.  I wouldn't hesitate to use a .338-06 with heavy bullets on brown bear, but if I was targeting them every year would use one of the other 2.  On deer, moose, and black bear, a .338-06 is very good at the variable ranges they are shot at. 

[Drilling Man]

Since reloading is not a problem, neither is ammo availability.  So the choice is yours.  I prefer the .338-06 over the Whelen on shots out around 300 yards.  For brown bear, I'd prefer the .35 Whelen or 9.3 Mauser.  Heavier bullets in both of these rounds can be extremely effective.  I wouldn't hesitate to use a .338-06 with heavy bullets on brown bear, but if I was targeting them every year would use one of the other 2.  On deer, moose, and black bear, a .338-06 is very good at the variable ranges they are shot at. 

  I'm amazed anyone would think a Whelen is better on browns than a .338-06..  I did a direct comparison between the 350 Rem. mag. (same velocity as a Whelen) and a .338-06, and at that time the 338 our shined it...  With todays bullets it should be about equil at all ranges anyone should be shooting a brown bear.

  Because of my test, i build a .338-06 and i've shot through a brown bear corner to corner using 275 grain Speers...  I also shot a wounded brown going straight away.   His ass was up when i pulled the trigger... and the 275 took out over 12" of his back bone and exited out the hide, going to parts unknown.  The bear rolled to a stop and was dead by the time i walked to him.

  With today's bullet choices, i'd bet any bear shot with either one would have the same results. (given equally constructed bullets)

  250NP's are a good "all around bullet" for the .338-06 for bigger game...

  DM

[deltecs]

Like I said, I wouldn't hesitate to use the .338-06 on brown bear.  The .35 Whelen with 310 Woodleigh bullets, also hit really hard on bear.  The 9.3 with Woodleigh bullets at 320 gr have exceptional penetration and very good penetration with bullets in 286 gr.  Penetration isn't the sole criteria on bear.  There is also the KO effect and that cannot be totally ignored with velocity.  The 9.3 hits a bit harder with heavier bullets, then the .35 Whelen, and last the .338.  I don't want to get into any debate with this, but larger cross sectional bore area bullets hit harder than smaller area ones.  I agree that we have to use bullets of the same construction type for comparisons and some factors negate others.  But overall the 9.3 generally hits a bit harder for stopping power over the others.  Personally, like I said, I prefer the .338-06, but I don't expect it to hit harder than the .35 Whelen or 9.3.  Actually, any discussion between them is like the differences between the .270 Win, .280 Rem, and 30-06.  Not enough to really discuss as to effectiveness, just as to the type of hunting and majority type of game hunted.  The .350 Rem Mag does have the ballistics of the Whelen, except for heavy bullets.  These bullets have to be seated too deep in the powder column for magazine length that it actually does not do as well as the Whelen with them. 

[Dave in WV]

Of the three cartridges listed I'd get the 9.3x62. The industry standard rifling twist rate is for heavier bullets than the other two. With a custom barrel the twist rate is a moot point since there are more options.

[Drilling Man]

Like I said, I wouldn't hesitate to use the .338-06 on brown bear.  The .35 Whelen with 310 Woodleigh bullets, also hit really hard on bear.  The 9.3 with Woodleigh bullets at 320 gr have exceptional penetration and very good penetration with bullets in 286 gr.  Penetration isn't the sole criteria on bear.  There is also the KO effect and that cannot be totally ignored with velocity.  The 9.3 hits a bit harder with heavier bullets, then the .35 Whelen, and last the .338.  I don't want to get into any debate with this, but larger cross sectional bore area bullets hit harder than smaller area ones.  I agree that we have to use bullets of the same construction type for comparisons and some factors negate others.  But overall the 9.3 generally hits a bit harder for stopping power over the others.  Personally, like I said, I prefer the .338-06, but I don't expect it to hit harder than the .35 Whelen or 9.3.  Actually, any discussion between them is like the differences between the .270 Win, .280 Rem, and 30-06.  Not enough to really discuss as to effectiveness, just as to the type of hunting and majority type of game hunted.  The .350 Rem Mag does have the ballistics of the Whelen, except for heavy bullets.  These bullets have to be seated too deep in the powder column for magazine length that it actually does not do as well as the Whelen with them. 

  I'm not sure my experience totally agrees with you...

  First off, the 350 RM i was using was a Ruger 77, same action i used for my initial testing of the .338-06

  When i comes to brown bear, i think penetration is of the up most importance...  I always try for a high shoulder shot, as i've already seen how far they can run from heart and lung shots...a long ways...and i was the guy that had to do the follow ups.

  My criteria for the cartridge/bullet is that it expand well, and give max penetration...  I want something that will break enough bone, and do enough damage inside so they are "anchored"...

  The .338-06 with expanding bullets will shoot through a bear corner to corner, so how can Whelen do any better than that???  I mean i've shot several big browns myself and seen this with my own eyes, and i've also done follow up tracking and finishing for others, so i'm not guessing here...

  From my experience, the Whelen isn't any better than the .338-06...

  As for the 9.3x62.. I don't have one, but i've have both a double rifle and a combo in 9.3x74R.  (same balistics as the 62)  I also mfg and sold bonded core 9.3 bullets for a time, so i have shot a few 9.3 bullets too

  My customers used my 9.3 bullets on game more than i did, and they were impressed with them.  I have not tested the 9.3 side by side with the others, like i did the .33 and .35...

  When it comes to a .33 or .35 cal. bullet on brown bears i don't care so much about KO, as it's penetration and the damage the bullet does that counts most.

  In "this" case, it's more about the individual "bullet construction" than it is about the cartridge, and the only advantage the Whelen has over the .338-06 is that you can reload .357 pistol bullets in the Whelen.

  I'll keep my .338-06, as i've seen over and over what it does on the biggest animals we have here in the US.  Bur, if you have some first hand expierences comparing these two side by side in the field i'd love to hear it, as i'm not too old to learn something...

  Anyway, happy shooting with what ever you choose to hunt with!

  DM

[Lone Star]

All this talk about the "KO" when few apparently knows what it really means - I am unsure about the posters here but they do bring it up.  "KO" is just one more urban legend, misquoted from the source then used to prove an unprovable point....

John Taylor, ivory hunter and grand poacher, coined the "KO" term years ago and others have grabbed it as the basis for defining stopping and killing power - chiefly because it favors big heavy bullets.   But what Taylor actually said about "KO" will cause dismay among many of those armchair experts who so freely talk about it today.  Here area a few quotes from Taylor's work:

"I do not pretend that they [TKOs] represent "killing power"; but they do give an excellent basis from which any two rifles may be compared from the point of view of the actual knock-down blow, or punch, inflicted by the bullet on massive, heavy-boned animals such as elephant, rhino and buffalo". (African Rifles and Cartridges, pg. xii)   

Not quite what most folks think he said, is it?  Trying to make such a formula fit something for which it was never designed (body shots into medium game with expanding bullets) is a futile exercise, and seems to be an attempt to add credibility to the pet opinions of hunters who want to ride "piggyback" on the work of a famous hunter/author.  Even more interesting, Taylor stipulated that kinetic energy probably gives a surer indication of killing power when expanding bullets on soft-skinned game are concerned.  I've hunted and killed brownies, and they are NOT thick-skinned game.


.

[deltecs]

I used KO for lack of a better word.  Taylor was not the only person who used KO as a comparison factor.  The reknown Hatcher also used a calculation for determining KO.  There is no doubt that a bullet with a cross sectional area large than another like constructed bullet will impart more of its intitial energy immediately on impact.  It is the balance of kinetic energy left that provides for penetration.  There is no argument with me that with 2 bullets of like construction and same weight, the smaller diameter bullet will penetrate farther, as DM has indicated.  However, the Whelen or 9.3 has more than enough residual energy for penetration into the vitals.  As to twist, the .35 Whelen is generally made with twist rates of 1:12-1:16, which do not stabilze heavy bullets well.  The 9.3 and the .338-06 generally are made with twist rates of 1:10, which will stabilize the heaviest offerings in these bore sizes.   And no, brown bear are not thick skinned game, but they do have heavy bones and tenacious will for living.  Whatever the .338-06 can do on NA DG, the other 2 can do equally as well.  The .338-06 does have it over the others at distance shooting.

[WyoStillhunter]

I have experience with the 35 Whelen on antelope (USA type), deer, elk and mountain lion.  I have not shot a really large individual of any of these species, 4X5 elk was the largest.  Distance has always been in the 50 - 75 yard range except for one antelope at 150+/-.  I doubt that bears will ever be a target for me and if they are they'll be smallish black bears.

I like the history of the Whelen, the romance of it.  So I am happy to hunt with the Whelen.  That said I expect the other two can be shown to be superior based on ballistic data.

If I were regularly expecting shots beyond 200 yards I would consider the 338/06 to be a better choice.  Given your positive experience with the 338/06 on a large deer, I see no reason not to go with that option in this case.

[lrs]

I'd go with the 9.3, although I'm sure the other 2 would kill a brown bear just as dead, as long as you did your part. 
John Taylor liked the 9.3, wrote about it somewhere, but I don't remember exactly where, or his exact words. It was something to the effect, that the 9.3x62 was so reliable you never had to worry about it.

[onesonek]

Any of the 3 would work for me, I believe the .338-06 gives a slight advantage in range. Personally, I think if you're a one gun type, the .338-06 is a very good round for all North American game, but I love my 9.3x74R. And I still want a .338-06.
Not a big help I know.

While slightly off this topic, 2 of the rounds mentioned fall into what I would call a balanced battery.
25 years ago I wrote an article, I got lazy and never did send it to any publisher's.
But it was titled "Overlapping  the Rifle Battery" and primarily meant for American game.
I will  note these in calibers, as I believe the case the bullet stuffed into, is more a personal choice.
But for "my battery" I believe if I had the .243, .277, .308, .338, and the .366 bores, I was pretty well covered.
I'm not sure it's coincidence that they step up by roughly .030". If more dangerous game than what NA offers were on the agenda, I would add a .40 to that list, if not .45 cal.

Dave 

[Barstooler]

Interesting.

I have shot length-wise through an 8 point bull elk with a 35 Whelen using 55 gr of 4895 and Speer 250 gr spitzers.

I also own and use a 338-06, but don't see where the 338-06 could have done any better.

Like I have said before -- 338-06/35 Whelen/9.3-62 arguments are like bald men fighting over a comb!!   

Pointless

Barstooler

[onesonek]

"Like I have said before -- 338-06/35 Whelen/9.3-62 arguments are like bald men fighting over a comb!! "

In all practicality, I agree Barstooler. And I could have back then as well as now "overlapped" The .20, .25, .30, and .35 calibers and accomplished the same thing

Dave

[AtlLaw]

Overlapping is good!   

[deltecs]

My choice for overlap and handling for a battery of rifles would be:
.223 Rem     Already have in Handi 22" bull
.280 Rem     Already have in Ruger Mark I
.338-06       Need in Ruger Mark I
.375 Ruger   Need in Ruger Mark I  (have to rechamber for this round)
.404 Dakota  Need in Ruger Mark I  (have to rechamber, adjust bolt face and magazine)

This is strictly my preferences and I'm sure others have a different opinion.  However, with the Dakota and either the .375 Ruger or .338-06, I'm ready for any African hunting.  Drop the Dakota and the rest of the rounds are more than effective on any game in NA with the correct rifle for the game intended.  If I need the .375 Ruger while caribou hunting and run across a nice brown or grizz, the .338-06 can handle the job.  The overlap is enough without duplication and still get the job done.  The .280 can also be used for varmint.  Again, these are not the best for any game overlap compared to the rifle to fit the conditions at hand, but they will do for any game anywhere, worldwide.  The .270 Win could be substituted with complete satisfaction instead of the .280, but I prefer the bullet selections of 7mm better than .277.

[Barstooler]

My "overlaps" are simple:

6mm-06
25-06
6.5-06
270
30-06
338-06
35 Whelen

If you notice a "trend" then you know what I am talking about!!!

Barstooler

[efremtags]

There is an interesting discussion on Z-HAT about -06 variants upto .411 caliber.

Typically you get better power efficiency from a case with the widest diameter bullet configuration, as you can gain case capacity and keep bullet weight, for the compromised loss of sectional density.

From that aspect the 9.3 is the best.

The 338-06 is hard to beat as there are a lot of good 338 bullets available.

The whelen is good to but 35 caliber bullets can't compare in selection to the 338.

The 9.3 seems kind of a waste to me, it does not have the power of a real MED bore like a 375 and it doesn't have the range capability of the smaller lighter faster calibers.  I don't think it will do anything the other 2 wont, except shoot far, but far is a relative term these days as most game is shot under 100 yards.

[onesonek]

"The 9.3 seems kind of a waste to me, it does not have the power of a real MED bore like a 375 and it doesn't have the range capability of the smaller lighter faster calibers.  I don't think it will do anything the other 2 wont, except shoot far, but far is a relative term these days as most game is shot under 100 yards."

Everything that exist is real , but,,,,,,
With that philosophy, we could do without 80 - 90% of what's offered to today's sportsman.
Well, you know what they say,,,,"one man's garbage(waste), is another man's treasure"

Dave

[Dixie Dude]

What is the .411 version of the 06 case called?  Does anyone have ballistics?  

[onesonek]

There are likely more, but the one I am most aware of, is the .411 Hawk.  On-line data is limited that I found with a quick search. It drives a 300 gr in the 2400+ fps range, for about 4000 fpe. Beyond that I haven't much more to offer at this point.

Dave

[Dixie Dude]

So the .411 Hawk would be more like a 416 Rigby light, or maybe like a hot 45-70?  Has anyone ever made a .375-06 variant? 

[deltecs]

There is an interesting discussion on Z-HAT about -06 variants upto .411 caliber.

Typically you get better power efficiency from a case with the widest diameter bullet configuration, as you can gain case capacity and keep bullet weight, for the compromised loss of sectional density.

From that aspect the 9.3 is the best.

The 338-06 is hard to beat as there are a lot of good 338 bullets available.

The whelen is good to but 35 caliber bullets can't compare in selection to the 338.

The 9.3 seems kind of a waste to me, it does not have the power of a real MED bore like a 375 and it doesn't have the range capability of the smaller lighter faster calibers.  I don't think it will do anything the other 2 wont, except shoot far, but far is a relative term these days as most game is shot under 100 yards.

The 9.3x62 Mauser has been around as long as the 30-06.  It is twin to the .35 Whelen for practical purposes.  So if the .35 Whelen is adequate, so too is the 9.3.  The 9.3 with 250 gr @ 2600 fps and the 286 gr at 2400 fps is powerful bad medicine with the right bullets on almost all game worldwide and having around 3800 ft/pds for penetration.  I don't think that is a waste of time.  With 232 gr bullets at sectional density of .250 pushed at 2700 fps, it can reach out and touch an animal.  This round has proved itself to be a winner for over 100 years in competition with all the newer rounds.  I think that speaks for itself.

[deltecs]

What is the .411 version of the 06 case called?  Does anyone have ballistics?  

The 06 case was wildcatted to .416 bore and called the 400 Whelen in about 1920.  However, the shoulder with the original angle did not give good head space.  JDJ came out with an improved .416-06 and had a 60 * shoulder with no problems at head space.  I don't have any ballistics for either round. 

[efremtags]

Deltec,

I think your # on the 9.3 are a bit aggressive. Guns and Ammo just featured this round, typical performance falls about 100fps slower than your post. This puts it at a ballistic equivalent of the 35whelen.

When I view cartridges larger than 30 caliber I weight the pro's and cons for the application. A 33-35 caliber gun typically reduces range over a 30 slightly for more power/penetration using heavier loads. This is a good compromise for larger game. Its not good enough for realy big game, and ovrkill for smaller deer sized game, but not so much that its impractical.

One you get over 35 caliber in the same case capacity, increasing weight begins to produce diminishing returns. You can go up a little, but stray too much and range becomes an issue as velocity falls off. I do not believe that 30gr of bulet weight will provide a decisive difference over the 35 or 33 in the 250GR range for the matter. To me, going bigger needs to have a real advantage. Th next leap for me is a 375 class (HH or equivelant).

Statistically, the 3 calibers in comparison are comparable to the point that if I already own any one of the three, buying the other serves no practical purpose. If I want a larger bore for power, I'll get a 375H

I stand by my statement, the 338-06 is the most practical and the 9.3 is a waste. Its not bad, I never said it was bad, just don't see the point of 36 caliber at this power level.

[RaySendero]

The 9.3x62 Mauser has been around as long as the 30-06.  It is twin to the .35 Whelen for practical purposes.  So if the .35 Whelen is adequate, so too is the 9.3.  The 9.3 with 250 gr @ 2600 fps and the 286 gr at 2400 fps is powerful bad medicine with the right bullets on almost all game worldwide and having around 3800 ft/pds for penetration.  I don't think that is a waste of time.  With 232 gr bullets at sectional density of .250 pushed at 2700 fps, it can reach out and touch an animal.  This round has proved itself to be a winner for over 100 years in competition with all the newer rounds.  I think that speaks for itself.

del,

Your info on the 9,3x62 seems about right.  I reload the 286 NPTs for my 9,3x62 with IMR-4320.  I  get right at 2,400 fps from a 24" barrel with this load.

[burntmuch]

My overlapping   
                            243
                            7mm mag         
                           357 max
                           35 rem
                           35 whelen
                           45/70

   I stuttered at bit with the 35s

[Drilling Man]

  Nosler shows that 2,400 with there 286NP is possible with MAX loads in both the 74R and the 62.  That's better than i've ever been able to get with 275 Speers out of the three .338-06's i've used them in.

  There's so many folks that have used the 9.3x74R for elephant and buffalo it isn't even funny, and they still are...  Just read on some of the forums where guys are making trips to africa and you will read the same thing.  It's considered a decent round for buff, and adequate for braining elephants.

  DM