Author Topic: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380  (Read 11991 times)

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Offline cbourbeau32

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38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« on: March 08, 2008, 12:30:15 PM »
I am asking for some input on the subject of which gun between one of the various 38 special 2" barrels and a P3AT to choose for every day carry. I love the feel of the various Taurus and Smith and Wesson "J frame" style 38 specials and they seem to point really well but I think they are really a little to big for front pocket carry which is how I plan to carry most of the time. The P3AT will fit in my pocket nicely but doesn't seem to feel quite right to me in my hand. I know whichever gun I will carry every day will definitely be the one to buy. I have given some thought to carrying in an ankle holster if I buy the 38 so I anyone does that I would like to hear from you. I would appreciate if anyone has any advice on the subject that maybe I haven't thought of. Thanks, Charlie
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Offline canon6

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 01:46:05 PM »
Charlie, I think you answered your own question"the P3AT will fit in my pocket,but doesn't seem to feel quite right to me in my hand" there is nothing more important in a self defense weapon , than "pointability" for lack of a better word.If you are carrying a 38 spec that you can hit with, you will be better ,than if you had a 319Jones Planet Wrecker, that you cannot hit with.
I carry a 2in 38 Spec(CharterARms) in a pocket holster, and a P11 in a IWB holster.The j frame size can be concealed well either way.  just my2c    Doug
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Offline mattmillerrx

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 02:47:39 PM »
This is just about the exact same question I have.  I thought the snub nose for ankle but would rather have a pocket carry like the kel-tec.  I have yet to buy but am leaning to the kel-tec.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 02:59:21 PM »
A CCW left behind is a useless waste of money cuz you're not going to have it when you need it. However a CCW carried improperly so you can't get to it RAT NOW when it's really desperately needed RAT NOW is no better.

To that end ankle carry is barely better than one left in the truck or at home when TSHTF. It's better left as a carry method for a back up or second gun to your primary carry gun. When you really really need a carry gun you need it immediately and angle holster carry is not that. For that matter front pockets aren't really a LOT better generally speaking. There can be exceptions but generally front pocket carry is rather slow to deploy.

You really need to put a lot of thought into this matter before you make decisions and spend money. the two primary considerations as I see it are having a gun that is powerful enough to do the job yet light and handy enough to always be with you and a carry method that allows you to access and deploy it very quickly when TSHTF as you are not gonna have a lot of time to think about it and to locate and get that gun into action. Bending over and pulling up your pants leg to access a gun is not a sane plan to be brutally honest.

Real world carry methods that can get the gun into action quickly are many and varied. Some use shoulder holsters and in my opinion they can be pretty quick and do a great job of hiding the gun IF you always wear something to conceal them and at the same time loose enough to allow instant access. That really limits you in the heat of summer. Cross draw and strong side carry again allow fast access if you practice drawing and putting the gun into action but again for the most part require you to wear something long enough to conceal them. Again in summer that can be a little bit of a problem but can easily be worked around with a light weight button up shirt left unbuttoned or a light vest.

Pocket carry depending on what pocket has a lot of advantages really. Front pants pocket or rear pants pocket don't necessarily depend on you wearing any long concealing shirt or vest if the gun is small enough for the pocket to hide it but are really quite slow to put the gun into action from.

Fanny packs moved to the front are innocent enough looking to not scream gun to the world and can be pretty darn fast to access and deploy the gun from. They don't require any shirt, vest or coat to conceal but in weather that demands a coat can be difficult to access if covered up by the coat.

A method I really like and use a lot is a light weight vest for warm weather or a coat, vest or jacket pocket carry. To me there is absolutely nothing faster. As I walk from truck to store or store to truck and such I can have my hand in the pocket and the gun IN MY HAND. It is already deployed but hidden from view so if I need it I have it already in my hand and ready to fire. If the pocket is loose enough the gun one that can/will function from the pocket I don't even need to pull it to fire it. My S&W 638 is a favorite for such carry.

Only you know what you do, where you go and how you dress so only you can decide what gun and what carry method is right for you. But it is a matter that deserves and demands a lot of thought be put into it if the gun is to be readily available and always on you and if it's not then you might as well not bother spending the money in the first place.

I have muliple carry guns and use multiple carry methods depending on what's right for the situation. No one gun or method in my opinion is right for all situations. If you are planning to try to get by with one gun and one carry method then I say to you that you are going to be unarmed and unprepared more often than you are armed and prepared.

Put some thought into where you go, how you dress and what you can both conceal and access immediately when/if needed. What's right for me might not be for you and what is ideal for you might not work for me at all. Only you can decide so don't go listening to what anyone of the rest of us think is ideal and assume it ideal for you as well. Work it out on your own around your life style and likely defensive needs based on situations you will find yourself in.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline cbourbeau32

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 03:25:47 PM »
Graybeard thanks for taking the time to write such a long and detailed response. I think you are on to something with the suggestion to have a couple of different carry options. Buying two guns is always better than buying one anyway. :-) I made the error originally of buying two guns when I first got my CCL and one ended up being to large to carry comfortably and the other one was under powered and rather small. I sold them both today at our local gun show and WILL continue to research and make an better thought out decision this time. Thanks again. Charlie
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Offline Doublebass73

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 05:31:27 PM »
I prefer the .38 snub. I went to the gun shop one time with every intention to buy a P3AT and
thought I really wanted one until I held it. It was just way too small to grip well. I ended up leaving it at the gun store.
It's tough to beat an airweight or airlite S&W. They're not as concealable as the Kel-Tec's but they can still be concealed well in the front
pocket.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

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Offline Old Griz

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 05:59:42 PM »
My wife and I both bought lightweight guns for pocket carry. I got the S&W 638 Airweight .38, and she got the Kel-Tec P3AT. Mine is bigger, but it still fits in the front pocket with an Uncle Mike's pocket holster. It points great, shoots great, and I love it. Her Kel-Tec is smaller, but so far, is NOT a dependable shooter. It constantly jams. We have tried almost every brand of ammo on the market. We have cleaned, it greased it, and so far, after 600 rounds of different stuff, CCI Blazer TMJ has done the best. Only two jams outta 50.

Now I know most people get the P3AT and love it. Ours just hasn't worked. My vote goes to the S&W.


Good luck!
Griz
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Offline Dave in WV

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2008, 11:03:32 AM »
Between the two choices, I'd get the P3AT and use a pocket holster for pocket carry because they help keep lint out of the firearm. I have small hands so many handguns don't feel right to me and I have to adapt to them.

Graybeard's advice is sound and correct.
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 11:20:49 AM »
Well said Graybeard!  When it is mild enough to wear a cover garment, I normally carry a Colt Defender .45 IWB.  When it is a little warmer and i have to 'dress down' more, i will carry my snub .38 in a Blade Tech UCH.  I like the blade tech as you will not sweat through it and ruin your gun and with the UCH I can tuck a shirt in and it completely disappears.  Even a T-shirt!  Now that said, I also feel that every one who carrys should own a Kel Tec .32 or .380 to drop in their pocket when nothing else will work.  The only drawback to pants pocket carry is that you cannot get to your gun when seated in a car or truck.  If you are going to wear a vest, you can wear a larger gun.  44 Man



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Offline BIG Dog454

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2008, 03:12:03 PM »
I have both and carry both, depending o the weather etc.  The snub nose is a ultra-lite, that still seems bulky to me for pocket carry, but works fine if I have a jacket and don't plan on removing the jacket, in a shoulder holster.  That being said I find myself carrying my p3AT a lot more.  I have a Don Hume pocket holster that I can even carry it in shorts in the summer without it showing.  I don't think that I need to carry a 45 or 40 cal for a gunfight, just some protection and a 38 or 380 will do well for me.  I also sometimes carry a 380 walter, which is easily concealed, but I usually grab the Kel-tec.  The best thing to do is to try the fit of some different guns, find one you like and use it, you know that if it doesn't work out you can trade it.  Remember; as has been said, a CCW not carried is useless.

Offline Curtis

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2008, 03:33:32 PM »
Old Griz,
I have no first hand experience, but I've been considering purchasing a P3AT and ran across this in my reading.  This procedure may help yours. http://www.ktog.org/tecwerks10.htm

Curtis
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Offline S.S.

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 04:50:57 PM »
In Georgia we only have 2 carry method choices, belt or shoulder holster. So make sure to read all of the rules to your CC Lic.
Pocket Carry is not legal in many places. As to the .380/38 Spl. Question, my shooting session yesterday raised some questions in my own mind concerning this. My target was a fender from an Acura automobile. 3 standard velocity Remington 158 grain LRN's rounds were fired. 1 penetrated, 2 knocked large dents but the bullets were found a couple of feet in front of the target. I was less than 15 feet away. this was from a 2 inch barreled snub... Fired from a 4 inch barrel next and the bullets zipped right through and barely left
a dent. That is not very good penetration for the Snub. Pretty much any cover will protect your adversary from it.

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Old Griz

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2008, 05:57:53 PM »
Thanks Curtis. I'm off this week, so I'll give this a try.
Griz
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 12:18:05 AM »
S.S.  If you need penetration from a .38 snub, you will have to go to cast bullets.  A .38 snub will do a fine job, but bullet selection is important.  Soft lead RN is probably the least effective bullet for most applications unless you want one that reloads easily into the cylinder.  Federal's SWC HP +P will do a fine job on flesh.  But if it is winter (as it still is here in Michigan) and heavy clothing must be gone through, then again, a hard cast bullet swc will do the best job for you.  The .380 jacketed RN will probably do a better job of penetrating the car fender, but it not as good a job of stopping a bad guy as a H.P.  Bullet selection for the job at hand!  44 Man
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Offline Mikey

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2008, 02:04:47 AM »
38 Snub nose over 380, period.  Even though I have both the 38 gets chosen first.  Neither is known to penetrate car bodies well, even the nycpd learned this early on.  Don't shoot at a car with a 38, period. 

A j-frame 38 can be loaded with 5 rounds of 200 gn cast semi-wadcutters.  The Kal-tec 380s can't carry that much weight.  If you like the way one fits your pocket, get a pocket holster from Uncle Mike's.  Shoulder carry or inside jacket or suit coat pocket is best for driving a car.  Ankle holsters can not be accessed unless you practice the contortions of the acrobat and can do so in a fit of blinding speed.  If that ain't you then find a more accessible means of carry. 

My M38 weighs 13.2 oz.  Add 2.5 more oz for bullet weight and you don't even yet have one pound.  I hardly notice it in a shoulder rig, and nearly forget about it with a hip holster.  Pocket holsters let you know it is there, where it is comforting. 

Graybeard's last paragraph is very telling and should be strongly considered.  It is excellent advice.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

Offline jeffk14

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2008, 03:52:46 AM »
S.S. wrote;
Quote
In Georgia we only have 2 carry method choices, belt or shoulder holster. So make sure to read all of the rules to your CC Lic.
Pocket Carry is not legal in many places.

S.S., I am in GA too and I'm not disputing you, but I've found the pocket carry language in the GA regs to be a little bit vague. My understanding was that loose unretained pocket carry was illegal, but pocket carry with an approved holster was o.k. It has been awhile since I've read the regs though and I could be wrong. I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

Offline S.S.

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2008, 03:40:42 PM »
I have been hearing that our laws here in Georgia were going to be clarified and simplified but who knows when.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Steve in Michigan

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2008, 01:02:10 PM »
I have a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard (shrouded hammer that is still able to cock for single action). I find two different ways to carry it work pretty well. First, the best way to carry it is inside your waistband as far a concealment goes, but it is usually the most uncomfortable. Anyway, I have a pair of Barami Hip-Grips that I use and I carry my revolver near my hip and hook the grip hook on my belt. This is a pretty secure method to carry the little revolver, but is still accessible if needed in a hurry. If the grip is too small, you could try to dig up a Tyler T-Grip to fill the space between the grip and trigger guard. Another way to carry if you are only going out for a short time is the appendix carry. If I do this, I usually have my Uncle Mike's Boot Grips on the revolver as they hold it much more securely in my waistband than the Barami. The biggest drawback of both of these carry methods is that the revolver is not protected against sweat, etc. I normally wear a t-shirt under my regular shirt so at least the gun is not directly against my skin.

As far as effectiveness, I think the 2-inch snub might be a little harder to manipulate that the auto, but I believe the .38 special is still a better round. Besides, if you are going to carry it, you sure had better practice with it and if you can't hit center mass at 10-15 yards you should keep practicing until you can. I forget at what level of efficiency a person functions at when TSHTF, but it is a very LOW level and you need all the practice and skill you can get.

Steve

Offline Curt Dawson

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2008, 08:04:46 AM »
Due to arthritis I can not comfortably handle either the J frame or any of the small semis.So for myself I carry a 2" M&P.For holsters I have a Bianchi IWB,El Paso saddelery 1930 Austin belt holster and a Ken Null shoulder rig.Until I can afford a 1911 I feel confident with it.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2008, 08:25:41 AM »
J-frame , first carry in the same place all the time if possible , i like front pocket , don't even need a shirt with it !
in a pocket a revolver with the cyl. is easier to get a grip on . the cyl. holds the pocket open just enough for the hand to glide in around the grip . an auto is flat and not quite as easy . a second trigger pull is on a fresh round .
now if in a coat pocket what will fire all its ammo ? revolver yes ! auto not likely . revolver is not as sensitive to ammo .
check out the model 38 air weight S&W . then try 158 gr. lead SWHP ammo ! most likely you will buy 2 guns at some point ! always nice to have a spare !
Oh yea , if you are out of action and someone else needs to use your gun to defend you a revolver is easier to pick up and use with little instruction !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 10:20:46 PM »
 got to differ with most here.. the 38 snubby i had was not near as conducive to pocket carry as the kel tec .380..both got the job done but you carry the keltec
 about like a pocket knife.. for me the snubby didn t come out near as easy..
   i compared the penetration of the .380 corbon 90 grn and it was about the same as the 38 protection rds out there..jmo slim
  ps i will say i understand why a person would not be impressed the first time he picks the keltec up..i almost missed out on my gun because of that.. but there was others waitin to get mine and it was the last the dealer had.. so i bought it..might be the
best decision ive made in a good while.. it feels a lot different when shooting at the range..i really like it
 edit ps i had the wrong snubby.. i now have the smith an wesson  60 38 smith an wesson..shoot 158 grn swc+p by remington..as far as im concerned the job of making an small ccw was done when they made this one..i still like my kel tec .380 ,but this guns just better in my opinion..i ll never know if theres better out there,as i ll look no further.. this 38 does the job
  don t mean the keltec going anywhere tho..at times i ll carry both..

Offline Mikey

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2008, 02:16:52 AM »
The concern about penetration is pretty significant, but make yourself a fair comparison.  Please understand that handguns were designed as anti-people firearms - in other words, handguns are soft tissue calibers.  Please forget about shooting Hondas or Toyotas or Buicks with 38 round nose lead bullets - it is neither an accurate or valid indication of the calibers ability on a soft tissue target.  The same goes for the 380. 

Now, under most circumstances a jacketed 380, ball or otherwise, will probably penetrate a car fender while a 38 lead round nose will probably not unless you hit it square on.  The lead will deform enough to cause the bullet to glance away.

I once loaded up some 38s, semiwadcutters, to shoot through a buddy's snub nose and my 6" 357.  The target was the top of a 55 gallon drum, laid on angle facing up at a distance of about 15m.  The shots from the snubnose glanced or ricocheted off - only one or two penetrated as they were pretty much straight on hits whereas from the 6" 357 they all penetrated straight through.  In a couple of instances the ricochetes from the snubnose came right back at us. However, those very same loads were used in a self defense shooting two years later, with complete pass throughs. 

I don't know how many of you fellas have access to a junkyard - pardone moi, automative reclaimation facility, but if you can get yourself the hood of a car or even a door you can find out how your bullets penetrate.  We have the hood of an older camaro at a friend's place where we are clearing trees for a building and have set up the hood for a target.  The thing is fulla 22 holes, 38 holes, a bunch of Tokarev holes and even some 45 holes but everyone who has shot the darn thing has found that some round nose softer lead slugs will glance off.  Even so, we now need to flip the hood over so get some less shot up target areas but still, the old addage comes back every time - don't try and stop a car with a 38.  The 38 is adequate for anti-personnel work as it will stop an assailant, but it won't stop a vehicle.

You just have to understand that you need to practice with whatever it is you are carrying.  Both the 38 spl and the 380 are on par with each other.  Forget +P loads in either, the standard velocity, standard pressure loadings work just as well and are easier to control.

If you really want to see what a 38 or 380 will do to a carcass, get yourself a couple of old turkeys from the market - not frozen.  Make certain they are thawed and line up two or three in a row and see how your different calibers and bullets perform.  Please understand that a sub-sonic 22lr will completely penetrate a 10 lb turkey at a distance of 300 yds so imagine what your 38 or 380 will do at personal defense distances.  Mikey.

Offline Old Griz

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2008, 10:33:24 AM »
Please understand that a sub-sonic 22lr will completely penetrate a 10 lb turkey at a distance of 300 yds so imagine what your 38 or 380 will do at personal defense distances.  Mikey.

I couldn't even SEE a 10 lb turkey at 300 yards. What kinda holdover would you have to have to hit anything 300 yards away with a .22LR???!!?  :o
Griz
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Offline Mikey

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2008, 01:07:59 PM »
Old Griz - the write-up on that test is in the Rimfire Rifle Forum under a 'sniper' post.  I can only imagine what the holdover was.  Mikey.

Offline j104wd

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2008, 04:39:30 AM »
I looked at the kel-tec and while it was small and would make it easy to conceal I couldnt get over the fact that it was too small for my hand and too much plastic and pins. I purchased a taurus ultralight in 38 and am very pleased with inside the waist band carry compared to my full size 45 now that it is warm out.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 01:18:44 AM »
ABOUT THE TURKEY ,it all depends on the shot placement and angle .
witnessed a 204 factory round explode on contact with a wild turkey at 50 yards , the second shot took his head off . The place where the first bullet hid was devoid of feather's and bruised but the bullet did not penetrate . So like most things in shooting nothing can be depended on 100% of the time .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline kmystry

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2008, 11:31:40 AM »
.38 hands down.  The .38 snub (mine, a S&W 637) is the only "little" gun that will sling a 158 gr. cast bullet.  .380's (mine, a Bersa .380) are nice and a pleasure to shoot for fun, but .38's are potent loaded correctly.  Stick with .38 Special.

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2008, 03:03:03 PM »
 well i got both now.. the 38 is a snubby S&W 60.. i rank it with the sig i had in quality .. its the lead pistol now..
 why.. cause i can hit better with the well balanced little revolver ..
 

Offline jgalar

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Offline S.S.

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Re: 38 snub vs Kel-Tec 380
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2008, 12:31:11 PM »
had a situation happen last night that ended one arguement in my mind about carry ammo.
I live way out in the woods and we are having a problem with ferral dogs,
I was driving out of my driveway when several dogs crossed the driveway.
I stepped out of the car, pulled my snub .38 spl and touched off at the last dog to cross the road.
"POP" ....no bang no boom, just a pop. This was a factory fresh Remington round and it was a squib.
This is the rounds that I always carry and I am sure glad it wasn't a life or death situation.
I will pull the bullets and reload them with good powder and primers.
My reloads will be carried from now on. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".