need opinions- 357mag, 45acp, or 44mag?

[Davemuzz]

Ok Dave throw in the extra mag.

Oh all right then......DEAL! 

[oldandslow]

I can't comment on what it takes to kill a black bear. I have only seen one in the wild and only for a few seconds because he turned and ran, almost instantly. The discussion about light vs. heavy pistols made me curious though. Gathered up what I have in the .357- .44mag category and weighed them. @ 2 lbs.-13 oz. for a 4 5/8" Blackhawk in .357: 3 lbs.-1 oz. for a 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk in .44 mag: 2 lbs. 5 oz. for a 4" S&W Mod. 19 .357. I could probably tell the difference between the Smith and either Ruger. I don't think I would notice any difference in either Ruger except for the shorter barrel being a little less in the way. Since it is for backup I would carry the Smith.

[coyotejoe]

The energy from 14-40's total more energy than 6 from a 44 !
multi hits ain't that how a shot gun works ?

Only if both you and the bear are willing to wait around while you shoot him 14 times!!! A high capacity magazine is just not my idea of an effective defense.

[SHOOTALL]

POINT WELL TAKEN !

[banen]

Cheese,
I think you made a good choice.   I a black bear defense gun is a different proposition than a black bear hunting gun. 

Bear Defense Gun:
I am inclined to think noise and pain are likely to do the trick anyway. 
There is practically no chance of ever having to actually use it on a bear. 
If you are talking about pumping some lead into a charging bear under harried split second circumstances I think a semi auto's a good choice. 
If you put them in the right place I think it will do the job, and you have more opportunities to put one in the right place. 
You don't care if you have  a blood trail or exit wound just that he stops tying to eat you. 
You also don't care if the thing suffers unduly, because of the trying to eat you thing mentioned earlier. 
The light gun is one you will have with you not in the truck. 
It is better for HD.

Bear Hunting Gun: 
You are making a conscious elective decision.
You don't want him to run far because you want to recover him. 
You don't want to risk unnecessarily wounding it.
You are likely to only get one shot 
You are likely to shoot at bears fairly regularly. 

Incidentally I have started calling predators in roughly the same area you are talking about with no gun, just for fun.  I am personally more worried about wolves but there are more bears around.   I have been thinking I maybe should bring something with me just in case, I will probably bring a 9MM, although I also have a .44.   

[Jim n Iowa]

I had my SBH cut down to 4 5/8", I carry it in a "Doc Holiday" cross holster. I load it with 240 swc, 44 spc., at 950+ fps, will take care of most problems in the field. We do not have bears in our area but are getting some big cats coming back. I carry a 2" Taurus 44 sp in my truck with 210 sthp loaded at 950+,but I would not be confident of a bear hit to stop him. It will work on carjackers though.
Jim

[Davemuzz]

Incidentally I have started calling predators in roughly the same area you are talking about with no gun, just for fun.  I am personally more worried about wolves but there are more bears around.   I have been thinking I maybe should bring something with me just in case, I will probably bring a 9MM, although I also have a .44.   

Nahhh.  Why not just slather yourself in bacon grease before you go?  When I go predator hunting here in Pa., all I will call in are fox and coyote. I bring a rifle (usually a 22 mag as the shots will be under 50 yards) but I always have a 357 on me. You just never know if a rabid raccoon will show, a roaming domestic dog that's not in a good mood, or a pack of crazed chipmunks. Yeah.....if I were in bear country....bacon grease.....yup! (BTW, black bears are in my area....but they are few and far between. I suppose I could chance into one.....but then, I suppose I could hit the million on the lotto too.)


Dave.

[cheezehead]

the bear population around me has skyrocketed in the last few yrs. we also have wolves, and in the last couple of yrs, cougars. we usually bowhunt our of a tree stand, so a charging bear isn't the problem. it's when mamma and her cubs see you, and decide to take a closer look! i've been stuck in my stand for over an hr, while a bear stared at me while it was eating acorns. i yelled, screamed, barked like a dog, didn't care. i finally tried whistling like i do for my dog, that got it's attention, and it slowly wandered off. it was dark, and he went the same way i had to to get to my truck, and hr walk away. the hairs were standing up that night! maybe a loud bang would have chased it out sooner.

[Robert357]

The .45 ACP was designed to kill one thing — people.

I hate to break it to you but the 45 ACP was not designed to kill one thing.

The Army cavalry thought it was important to also kill enemy horses in battle.  If you read the November 1907 Thompson LaGarde Report (I have), which is what was used as the Army justification for adopting a new .45 caliber bullet, and later a Semi-Automatic handgun in .45 caliber, you will note that the tests were performed on human cadavers, live cattle and live horses.  Page 36 of the report is where the "EXPERIMENTS ON HORSES" starts.  Obviously, this was prior to the SPCA or political correctness.

My comments for the archer. 

In some states, muzzle loader hunters and archers who have a modern handgun with them is a technical violation of the hunting regulations. 

Personally, I have a 45 ACP, 44 Mag, 45 Long Colt, and 357 Magnum.  All in all, in a wilderness survival situation, I would prefer a revolver in (in the following order) 44 Mag, 45 Long Colt (+P+handloads or Buffalo Bore heavy's), or 357 Mag (200 grain and +P+).  All of them are fine and powerful handguns that will increase your odds of survival in the very rare chance that you have to defend yourself.  Your best survival weapon would however, be situational awareness.

[Davemuzz]

All of them are fine and powerful handguns that will increase your odds of survival in the very rare chance that you have to defend yourself.  Your best survival weapon would however, be situational awareness.  My English probably isn't proper....however, A truer statement could probably not be made!

MHO

Dave

[S.B.]

Mountain Gun and you won't have to suffer the horrendous recoil of the lite weight guns:



And take a look at these chest holsters on this site, can be worn under a sweatshirt or coat and never in the way of any activity you are doing.:

http://www.survivalsheath.com/holsters/index.htm

[DCRthe3rd]

If we view bear attacks from those who lived , often we would hear , they didn't see the bear until it was ontop of them , with this taken into account , a semi auto may not be the weapon of choice if laying on the ground , grasping for your gun to fire repeatedly as its pressed against 400 pounds of fur, some of that along with your grasp could result in only getting one shot off before jamming. The idea you may have to fire your weapon while the attack takes place has me in favor of the double action wheelie , and of course the 44mag with hardcast for max penetration despite the area that is targeted

[S.B.]

DCRthe3rd, I think you base your synopses on personal opinion and not on any facts? At short hairs length, what makes you think a revolver is more likely to not jam than a semi auto? The old wives tale about jams with a semi automatic are just that "OLD WIVES TALES". Any handgun can, under the right circumstances, jam.
These bear threads are really a theory in practice, anyway.

[SHOOTALL]

SB , I have taken many courses and in fact passed classes qualify me to teach threat management . In those classes we explored the good and bad of many weapons , the hand gun was but one . With regard to jamming at close range , at contact distance the blow back may/will contain parts of the body from meat to bone . Any of those parts can jam either type weapon . It takes little imagination to realized an auto is at more of a disadvantage . Also most if not all autos can be forced out of battery if pressure is applied to the muzzle . Take into consideration the fact that you could have a bad round and many autos do not have a second strike capability and require 2 hands to cycle the action ( yes if WELL trained you can cycle the action on your belt or like but with a bear chomping on ya ............ ) . Then also a more powerful round can be chambered in a smaller revolver than auto .
If you can have presents of mind to avoid the causes of the auto when out of no where a bear or what ever attacks , the by all means carry an auto . But if you wish to gain as much advantage as possible you may see the revolver as better suited . that said , you d- - - better well take care of business in the number of rounds contained in either gun !
and that is the ace the auto holds .
I would go with the wheel gun and take a good shot as it may only be one shot !

[Doc T]

Make sure it is legal.  See Robert357's post above.  In my state (Louisiana), the only firearm you can legally carry while bowhunting is a 22 revolver loaded with snake shot.   We have a lot of poisonous snakes down here!

Doc T

[S.B.]

SHOOTALL, not to question your self acclaimed "expert status" or anyone elses but, how many nano seconds do you think you'll have during a bear attack? Do you actually think threat management is the same thing as a bear attack?
Most threads on Bear Attack are nothing to do with real life, just people stating their opinions about what they think would happen. Come on, it's been stated many times over that the best defence is Common Sense(read avoidance).

[SHOOTALL]

SB , didn't claim to be an expert at all , just offered what i had learned from experts . As far as your other cut you must have missed the one shot statement and the fact that I offered the positive points of both platforms . I did offer my choice and stated the possible draw back there . But its my life and i will choose thank you very much .
Now threat management vs. bear attack . Lets see in both cases one should be aware of hostile threats in their area . They should prepare to deal with what ever threat that comes along . They should be aware of how the threat will react . With out writing a book i can already see how it could be one in the same . And yes i have hunted many times where bear were , it can be eventful if you let your guard down and insist on doing things with out thinking !
Now since you have dressed me down i will offer for those interested - threat management is not a shooting course , in fact if you have to shoot then you have been caught in a comprised position ( read not paying attention to surroundings ) or you just plain screwed up !
In short to manage a threat you recognize it and avoid it if possible ! If not then have the tools to stop it from hurting you !

[DCRthe3rd]

DCRthe3rd, I think you base your synopses on personal opinion and not on any facts? At short hairs length, what makes you think a revolver is more likely to not jam than a semi auto? The old wives tale about jams with a semi automatic are just that "OLD WIVES TALES". Any handgun can, under the right circumstances, jam.
These bear threads are really a theory in practice, anyway.

Well every forum has one , on here I guess its you.

As I said "if" you researched bear attacks by those who lived , not my opinion , you'd see many people's 1st  thought of a bear attack was when the bear was upon them , it happened that fast,
So , if this is an indication of what may take place it only stands to reason by the time you are going for your gun , you are in direct contact , we all know or most of us know , a poor grip on a semi can induce a malfunction , and it stands to reason you may not have a good grip if you have a bear upon your chest or your head in his mouth, in addition to what the guy shootall has stated
people have had poor grips of their semi while in a shootout with a human at non contact diatnce , only seems this might happen if the gun is jammed agaisnt fur when you pull the trigger.
Frankly I don't care if you use a single shot , had I known you were the know it all here looking for a fight , I would have stood down , and now that youre here I guess there isn't much reason for anyone to say anything as we have now all been saved praise the Lord

[SHOOTALL]

if anyone really wants to find out next time ya got a deer on the ground try a contact shot and see what happens !
wear a rain coat ( easier to clean off ) .

[Davemuzz]

  Well, since we are speaking in "theory" as I have never been attacked by a bear (once by a crazed chipmunk...but he didn't see me in my camo) here are my thoughts FWIW. My CCW is a DA revolver....because it's a simple weapon to use. There is no safety to "un-click". It's point 'n shoot, and the DA with the "long" pull won't "accidentally" go off (unless adrenaline is way off the charts...and then it's gotta be a big bear....or a big bad guy). And in all of my shooting of my 1911 and my revolvers at my clubs action pistol shoots.....funny (not ha ha funny) but my revolver hasn't jammed once.....but let's not talk about the 45acp.

So...again, in "theory" if the bear is upon me, or even if he's not, give me my 6 shot. I have more confidence in it. If the bear's fur gets stuck in between the cylinder and the top strap....oh well, at least I'll get one shot off......'eh?

Dave

[BAGTIC]

Cheezehead was not asking about what would be best for bear hunting. He was asking about what would be effective for self defense in case he was attacked.

If a bear attacks you no handgun will stop it before you get mauled unless you damage the CNS. Yo want a gun and load that will penetrate the skull as was shown not long ago when two attacking brown bears were stopped by 9mm  after a large caliber had failed.

I would feel confident with a .357 with 160+ grain HC bullets at good velocity.


BTW, how much cumulative energy 14 pistol rounds possess is irrelevant. Energy doesn't kill. It it did we could kill bears by pelting them with marshmallows if we threw enough of them.

I recall reading that one of the largest grizzlies ever killed died when it attacked a Canadian woman who was gathering firewood with her little hatchet. WHACK!

It is where you hit them that counts.

[Davemuzz]

I recall reading that one of the largest grizzlies ever killed died when it attacked a Canadian woman who was gathering firewood with her little hatchet. WHACK!

While it's true...the "where" part.......what BAGTIC failed to tell you was the Canadian woman was 6'5" tall and weighed in at 325lbs and didn't have an ounce of body fat on her. That also helps. Oh....and the tiny hatchet was measured against her Brea......Oh.....nevermind. 

Dave

[Mikey]

Ya know, with all this death and destruction around when bears attack, I think I'm liable to ask Jamal what he would think of the use of a African Lion Spear.  Don't know if it is Watusi, Masai or Zulu in origin but the blade is about 1.5', with a 'stop' about another 6" up the handle, which is about 1" around, 6" long and made of hardwood.  The object is to let the animal run up on you but impale itself - the stop prevents the wounded animal from sliding down the shaft and onto you.  Actually, you carry two - one you use to impale, or fix the animal to the ground and the other is used to slay the beast.  Dang, where's Jamal when ya need him..... Mikey.

[Davemuzz]

Oh man,.....now were talkin about impalin 'n blade stops and handle lengths....this is just gettin way too complicated....I need an asprin.

Dave