Bang Flops?

[RaySendero]

I voted "Usually".

My son and I hunt deer alot.  He with a 308 - Me with a 270, 7.5, 7.7, 8 and a 9.3.

Counting back he's about 42% and I'm about 60% so call it about half the time between the two of us.  Usually was a better fit than sometimes.

[myronman3]

looking at the poll, if you count alway's, usually's, and sometime's, it is 45 people versus  12 people that is rarely or never.   
   maybe, just maybe,  this happens more than some people think?

[Glanceblamm]

myronman3
I would come up and sit with you except for two things.
1. I believe you
2. I am not about to give you the chance to Jinx my Ruger into sheering off that ejector housing screw! hahaha

[Graybeard]

Or if you toss the "sometimes" in with rarely and never then you get 40 to 17 the other way. Ya really can't anymore toss the middle group in with the upper than with the lower. Clearly most do not see it regularly or really expect it. If you aim for the CNS you should see it regularly assuming you're a good shot. If you're not then you likely won't. If you don't aim for CNS it will still happen at times just not so often.

[beemanbeme]

Not to define "is" too closely, did we define exactly what a bang-flop is?  If the deer is "cocked" and when you shoot, he makes one bound and hits the ground DRT is that a bang-flop?  What about two bounds?  I've kilt them so dead they didn't even mess up the weeds they fell in. And I've had them make one and two jumps and not even kick when they hit the ground.  Just some sort of a spasmodic lunge.
The two worst NON bang-flops I ever had was with a 12 ga shotgun using a single ball. Two different deer.  Both deer were knocked completely sprawling, off their feet.  With extensive, lethal damage done. But both deer regained their feet and ran off like a turpentine dog.

[Davemuzz]

The two worst NON bang-flops I ever had was with a 12 ga shotgun using a single ball. Two different deer.  Both deer were knocked completely sprawling, off their feet.  With extensive, lethal damage done. But both deer regained their feet and ran off like a turpentine dog.

Man......are we dealing with Bill Clinton definitions here? Obviously, the the knock down...jump back up...run for some time frame, then fall over dead...would not qualify as a B\F/.  Now, a Bang, followed by a Flop...then a roll, and maybe an arched back and a hoof kick....that would probably qualify. I would say....without having to get into contractual law here, that it would be in the judgement of the hunter if it qualifies as a B\F. And if the said hunter has to get into the minutia of the event, and simply cannot use his God given independent judgement, then said hunter should remain quiet until such time that he acquires such judgement....should that time ever occur in his lifetime.

MHO

Dave

[PartsMan]

I guess everybody is entitled to there own opinion but for the poll I set some parameters.

This is being debated on another forum.

How often do the deer you shoot with a bullet drop in there tracks and die?
(I think we will leave the arrows out this time)

No tracking and no follow up shot.

I am personally surprised.
Thought there would be more rarely than usually.
Didn't know that so many deer were dropping so fast.

[myronman3]

2. I am not about to give you the chance to Jinx my Ruger into sheering off that ejector housing screw! hahaha

that is funny!!!   you know what?  i had them fixed,  traded off two and the other was given to my dad.  he didnt shoot it much, and brought it back to me so my wife could shoot it.   no problems whatsoever.   the more i learn, the more i realize the less i know.   lol

[myronman3]

fair enough, g.b.. 
     my whole point is that by the way some people talk,  it rarely happens.   and before i started shooting them with my 270, i would have agreed with those people.   "always" seems pretty self explaintory to me, "usually" i take as meaning more often than not, and "sometimes" i would inturpt as 30-50% of the time.   looking at that, it is surely more frequent of an occurance than some people say is possible.     and as far as cns,  i havent shot a deer  through the spine, neck, or head yet with my 270, yet i keep scoring b/f's.  dont ask me, i am just sharing what i have seen.   

[myronman3]

beemanbeme,  pretty funny.  i love it when the "is" definition is brought up.   it is still about as stupifying a display of behavoir as i have ever witnessed.   
   to me,  a bang flop is when they drop straight down, no kicking, no hopping, no bleating, just dead.  the most i've seen was an ear twitch slowly.  imagine lightning striking them between the eyes.  like you said,

I've kilt them so dead they didn't even mess up the weeds they fell in

i dont know if i could explain it better than that.

[Graybeard]

I've shot deer with a lot of different rounds from rifles, shotgun, handguns, muzzle loaders and bows. I've seen a lot of strange things happen to some of those deer.

My very first I was for real expecting a bang-flop mostly cuz I didn't know any better. I used a 12 ga foster type slug thru the heart from perhaps 10 yards max. How can such a deer do anything but flop right? Well by golly that little spike buck ran at least 75-80 yards before dying in mid stride and his head was pointing back at me with his butt ahead of it in the direction he was running. After that I guess I didn't so much expect a bang flop.

But then my very next one I used a Marlin .35 Remington and guess what? Bang flop no movement unless you count him sliding down that seriously steep ridge he was on. Turned out the bullet did manage to impact the spine that's that CNS shot that means bang flop just about every time.

I've used the .270 Winchester on a bunch of deer likley about as many as any other round I'd guess but the 7-08, .30-06, .44 magnum and even the 7-30 waters are not likely far behind if behind at all. I've used many others but those have accounted for my largest number of centerfire killed deer.

Taking them as a whole killed by all centerfires combined the ones taken with the .44 magnum probably fell closer to the point of impact than any other chambering. Not all did and one went at least 150 yards but some were bang flops even at least one without the CNS being hit and most fell in sight of me.

I don't aim for or expect to hit the CNS and do not expect a bang flop and most times don't get it unless the CNS gets hit for some reason whether intentional or not. Heck I even had one with the bow when my arrow went high and hit the spine.

I've seen enough strange reactions to shots I don't discount much of any sorta tale of what happened on any given shot. But when folks tell me that all their deer fall immediately to ground when they shoot them in the heart or lungs I have to question that person's grasp on reality. Just don't happen for me no matter what I shoot them with so it seems unlikely it always happens for them unless their bullet is really going into the CNS rather than the lungs or heart.

Now not for one minute will I dispute that you can hit heart or lungs and still have a bang flop cuz I have without the CNS being hit but might darn seldom. Some say it's the state of mind the deer is in at the shot and maybe it is but then again maybe it's not.

Once I shot a doe being chased by dogs. Surely her adrendaline was at an all time high and if any deer was gonna run at the shot I'd have expected her to. But she didn't. She just sank to the ground and slide down the hill aways and all I hit as lungs. Ya really just never know. That's one of the very few I've killed that went down to the shot without even a quiver but no CNS area was hit.

[NONYA]

I still think all the ALWAYS votes are either #1,#3 or full of #2.

[Graybeard]

I still think all the ALWAYS votes are either #1,#3 or full of #2.

Yup I'd tend to agree unless they always shoot for the CNS and even then I suspect some time or another they will make a bad shot and not get the bang flop. Always and never are two words that ALWAYS  cause me to question just how much experience is behind their comments.

[ironglow]

  Guess we all have a bit different perspective on bang/flop. When I said "usually", I was picturing slightly over 50%..and the flop was somewhere within 10-15 feet
 where I could easily see the deer expire very near where it was hit !

[kennisondan]

well : I am gonna vote usually; with a caveat : I feel that if they drop right there and do not make any real attempt to get back up it is a BF.... more often than not they have dropped on the spot or if travelling, on the step, instantly down and not getting up... but out of those most did move their heads some or moved a leg or something...about one fifth probably dropped and I saw no twitch from my stand... all of those but a couple was  a central nervous system shot; the exceptions were close to the heart but not exactly through it... a bunch ran with a heart hit for from a few feet to 60 yards or so;  I have had a few to track and lost a few as well with obvious hits... the tracking ones were usually a chest hit without any shoulder bone or spine contact and not close enough to the spine or heart to just make the thing drop; one this year was a two hundred yard double shoulder shot that went directly on the point of the closer shoulder and exited just to the rear of the point of the off shoulder, and the deer ran about twenty two or three  yards, leaving the 7 yards of open right of way like it could be hit but not for sure.... the deer's position and flexing and stretching of the skin precluded any blood trail until about fifteen yards were covered and the deer fell and skidded .. and there was blood under it .. looked a little while before I found it as I saw deer moving off when I got to the area and that slowed me down a good bit...glad I did not shoot again thinking I had jumped it...it was stone cold dead and no one seeing the wound or the path of the bullet would beleive it would leave the clearing and did not just drop cause both shoulders were broken, one demolished and the other broken not as bad..tore up a bunch of meat, too...  I used to shoot more for the neck and spine when I was younger and used my 30 06 with 150 grainers...
I did find the 243 for my deer with it : ran about ten to 40 yards with any chest hit, of 8 or 9 ... two dropped right there and the rest took a really short run, whether hit in or near the heart... but that proves nothing....
the 270 has been great for dropping them on the spot with a good shot... The 30 06 seemed better... I have not shot any with the larger than 30 caliber guns yet in the last several years... long ago I shot two with a 454, one tried to get up enough times without success that I shot him again for "load testing" and peace of mind... the second one the next day was shoulder to behind the shoulder and dropped and moved its foot for a few seconds...
For a long time I would have answered almost always, cause with shotguns, I shot only close deer and the buchshot can be devastating... when I started other guns, different calibers, etc. and got less practice... there were more tense moments...
I shot a deer with the encore pistol and it jumped about eight feet straight up, landed right side up on its belly and skidded without the front legs under it for about eight or ten yards.. then it got legs under it and ran off... a hundred yards of briar patches more than head high, and the blood trail ran out completely... no tricks worked for finding the deer... So now I lost one and got one DRT BF with the 308 encore pistol... through the heart at 50 yards and it just dropped and its life and soul blew out the other side, obviously...
I wonder if any one will start a thread on how many times there was a really hard tracking job; a luck only deer find after tracking failed; a lost deer... etc.
I am gonna want to see that one.... it will be hard to be honest, but as an Attorney I know you can count on me and At Law to always... uh... uh.... well heck just ask the man I aint vouching for no Lawyers... never...
dk

[kennisondan]

Good thing I read the definitions and other posts before tackling this ... the term bang flop could be defined differently... if you do not know it is about hunting.... then... but I did read it... cause I am a master of language, Me Too... lol
( wow I am surely glad it is not about E. D. " as seen on TV.")...yes I am referring to extra dead ..
---anonymous

[Cheesehead]

Every time with your 300 mag?

Every time with your 375 mag?

Every time with your shotgun?

Every time with your 357?

Every time with your 243, on and on.

Many, many variables.

Where is my attorney.

Cheese

[Davemuzz]

Why is it that people make the simple things so hard? Then you have to get the darn attorneys involved, and the next thing you have is a volume as thick as War and Peace on the definition of B\F. I say just sprinkle a little common sense on it, and cook for 15 minutes on the grill.

Dave

[NONYA]

I still think all the ALWAYS votes are either #1,#3 or full of #2.

Yup I'd tend to agree unless they always shoot for the CNS and even then I suspect some time or another they will make a bad shot and not get the bang flop. Always and never are two words that ALWAYS  cause me to question just how much experience is behind their comments.

My point EXACTLY,just put into more PC terms,BTW  I have seen a brainshot deer leap out of its position upon bullet impact and then crumble into a heap,still not a BF.

[billy_56081]

The cause of Bang flop heart shots was studied in Africa where game managers were culling cape buffalo with a .338 Winchester magnum. The game managers were very careful in choosing their shots and were attempting to hit the heart. They were surprised when some of the buffalo dropped instantly and barley gave a kick. They autopsied some of the animals and found the arteries in the brain were ruptured. The doctors doing the autopsies surmised that the heart was struck when it was contracted and at near peak pressure, thus sending a pressure wave through the arteries rupturing them. So those of you who claim that all of you heart lung shot deer drop instantly you must have very good eyes to see the pulse of your deer and time your shots. A little .338 win mag is very light on cape buffalo so it kinda negates the earlier 270 win claims. To you guys who claim that you are 100% you are amazing to say the least and I wish I had your skills.

[AtlLaw]

The cause of Bang flop heart shots <snip>

You just made me remember 2 what I would call BF's, the deer just fell over sideways, I have had that were NOT CNS shots.  Both were head on shots into the chest.  The first was with a .490 round ball and the second was with a 257 Bob w/a 115 gr. Nosler partition.  I don't remember the internal damage to the first, but I distinctly remember the major arteries to/fm the heart of the second were all severed but the heart was relatively intact.

[Graybeard]

I'm sure different folks define bang/flop differently. To me it's when the deer does not run or walk from the spot where hit. Yeah they might rear up like a horse and fall over backward (had that happen), the might stand there a moment then just sink slowly to the ground (seen that too) or they might go down like their legs were jerked from under them (yup seen that too). They might twitch a bit or raise their head or a leg might go up in the air and shake a bit then just ease down. They might give a weird sounding dead moan. You guessed it I've seen all those.

But to me if the deer is able to remove itself from that immediate location even a few paces then it was NOT a bang flop.

I really don't keep records of such matters but I'd guess I've had about as many fall within my sight as out of my sight maybe even more. But I've personally seen darn few of what I call bang flop unless my bullet impacted the CNS in some way.

[AtlLaw]

<snip>they might rear up like a horse and fall over backward (had that happen),

Okay, one more, the first one I ever shot with my 338/06; 180 gr. Nosler BT behind the shoulder.  He reared up and went right over backward dead.  Still doesn't change my vote though.  Keep talkin!  Y'all are making me remember good hunts!

But to me if the deer is able to remove itself from that immediate location even a few paces then it was NOT a bang flop.

That would be my understanding also!

[myronman3]

i've gone over this a few times before, but just to clarify....
      when i started hunting i used a 20 gauge shotgun as it was a shotgun only zone.  every deer that we took back then ran a ways after you hit it, you could count on it.  the only one i saw  that didnt run was a yearling that i shot through the head, and while it didnt run,  it sure didnt give up the ghost immediately.  i know that deer was dead instantly, but the animals body took a while to realize it.   a few minutes later a shot to the neck instantly hit the "off button".    there were several deer that were still alive when we reached them and needed to be finished, and a neck shot again turned them off instantly.
   then i moved north and started using a 35 remington.  a killer for sure, but results were the comparable to the shotguns i had used in the past.  i took a few deer with that gun. 
   back in '97 i boought a 270, and with one exception, all have dropped instantly with no kicking or thrashing.  none have been hit through the heart.  two were forward of the heart angling back and exiting behind the off side shoulder blade. one went through just forward of the heart smashing both shoulders.  and the rest as i recall were a tad behind or above the heart, everything else in the chest cavity was jelly.  and they were all b/f's; except that one i hit through the diaphram which did travel a little.   since 97, i would estimate the deer i have shot with that rifle is between 20-25 deer.  only one traveled past the place it was shot at. 
    the only other shot with that rifle that didnt result in a b/f was on a gorgeous red fox.  it came through and the day was moving along slowly.  i shot him across a lake (a great shot) and he took off and ran about 30 yards before expiring.  i expected a quarter sized hole in him,  and spent the rest of the day thinking about where in my house i would put his mount.  well, when i got to him at the end of the day,  there was a hole about the sive of a baseball through him, where his heart and lungs used to be.   how that animal ever moved at all i will never know.  if anything should have been dead instantly, it should have been that fox.   
   and as i have stated before,  my brother uses a 270 and we have hunted side by side for alot of years now (the more i think of it the more i realize that the age monster is sneaking on me).  he uses a different load, as he had a bunch of bullets he got for cheap (sierras, i believe) and his deer typically ran a little after being hit.   this last year he shot up the last of them, and i sent him home with a 100 pack of nosler 150 bt.   that should be good for another 70 deer for him, which will carry us a way down the road of life.
  my other friend that uses a 270 uses either remington core lokt factory ammo (150's) or winchester 150 graing round nose factory.   all his deer have been b/f's except for one big doe he took a few years ago.  the only two similarities with him and i are we are using 270's, and we are both military trained; so perhaps our shot placement is similar.  and that is just a guess.   
    what does it all mean? i dont know.  i dont discount what others here are sharing.  all i can tell you is that the ones i have shot with my 270 have giving me b/f's reliably.   from what i have seen, it is what i have come to expect with a good shot.   there have been just too many consecutive kills with that result for me to discount it.   am i just getting lucky?  could be.   truth is i dont know why i get those results, i do believe that the bullets i choose to use has a good deal to do with the results i have seen.   
  one thing is for sure though, i DONT like being called a liar just because someone may have seen different things than i have seen.    that said,  i am taking the chip off of my shoulder as i am getting tired of carrying it around.   it will stay off as long as i dont get torched again.
  best wishes to ALL.

[PartsMan]

I know a guy that would claim bang flops on doe allways.
He only takes head shots on doe.

I would say he usually misses.

CNS shot deer are more likely to walk away without a scratch.(missed)
Shoulder shot deer often lay and suffer needing another shot.

I am happy taking my lung shot and tracking my deer to it's certain death.
Knock on wood, I haven't needed a second shot yet.

[Mohawk]

  I have always had a habit of hitting high in the lungs. Whenever I would get a BF it meant usually that the spine was chipped as the bullet passed through. Then you have the delayed bf. I shot a hog a few years back and the spine was not hit, just the lungs with a .280 using a 150gr Rem Core-lock. The sow just squealed and stood there for a good 8 seconds and just fell over. That was weird.

  I was never worried too much about having a BF. A good shot through the lungs will be a dead deer within 100yds max.

[beemanbeme]

If the deer is just a jump or two from where I shot him, it may not be a B/F but I think the deer is dead on his feet. As I posted, the jump was just a reaction to the shot and I can live with that. 
Here is Wild and Wonderful, you can make a B/F and if the deer makes one twitch, he can end up 100 yards down the mountain from where he dropped. 

[Glanceblamm]

i've gone over this a few times before, but just to clarify....
      when i started hunting i used a 20 gauge shotgun as it was a shotgun only zone.  every deer that we took back then ran a ways after you hit it, you could count on it.  the only one i saw  that didnt run was a yearling that i shot through the head, and while it didnt run,  it sure didnt give up the ghost immediately.  i know that deer was dead instantly, but the animals body took a while to realize it.  a shot to the neck a few minutes later instantly hit the "off button".    there were several deer that were still alive when we reached them and needed to be finished, and a neck shot again turned them off instantly.
   then i moved north and started using a 35 remington.  a killer for sure, but results were the comparable to the shotguns i had used in the past.  i took a few deer with that gun. 
   back in '97 i boought a 270, and with one exception, all have dropped instantly with no kicking or thrashing.  none have been hit through the heart.  two were forward of the heart angling back and exiting behind the off side shoulder blade. one went through just forward of the heart smashing both shoulders.  and the rest as i recall were a tad behind or above the heart, everything else in the chest cavity was jelly.  and they were all b/f's; except that one i hit through the diaphram which did travel a little.   since 97, i would estimate the deer i have shot with that rifle is between 20-25 deer.  only one traveled past the place it was shot at. 
    the only other shot with that rifle that didnt result in a b/f was on a gorgeous red fox.  it came through and the day was moving along slowly.  i shot him across a lake (a great shot) and he took off and ran about 30 yards before expiring.  i expected a quarter sized hole in him,  and spent the rest of the day thinking about where in my house i would put his mount.  well, when i got to him at the end of the day,  there was a hole about the sive of a baseball through him, where his heart and lungs used to be.   how that animal ever moved at all i will never know.  if anything should have been dead instantly, it should have been that fox.   
   and as i have stated before,  my brother uses a 270 and we have hunted side by side for alot of years now (the more i think of it the more i realize that the age monster is sneaking on me).  he uses a different load, as he had a bunch of bullets he got for cheap (sierras, i believe) and his deer typically ran a little after being hit.   this last year he shot up the last of them, and i sent him home with a 100 pack of nosler 150 bt.   that should be good for another 70 deer for him, which will carry us a way down the road of life.
  my other friend that uses a 270 uses either remington core lokt factory ammo (150's) or winchester 150 graing round nose factory.   all his deer have been b/f's except for one big doe he took a few years ago.  the only two similarities with him and i are we are using 270's, and we are both military trained; so perhaps our shot placement is similar.  and that is just a guess.   
    what does it all mean? i dont know.  i dont discount what others here are sharing.  all i can tell you is that the ones i have shot with my 270 have giving me b/f's reliably.   from what i have seen, it is what i have come to expect with a good shot.   there have been just too many consecutive kills with that result for me to discount it.   am i just getting lucky?  could be.   truth is i dont know why i get those results, i do believe that the bullets i choose to use has a good deal to do with the results i have seen.   
  one thing is for sure though, i DONT like being called a liar just because someone may have seen different things than i have seen.    that said,  i am taking the chip off of my shoulder as i am getting tired of carrying it around.   it will stay off as long as i dont get torched again.
  best wishes to ALL.

Well Said, I think that this also boils down to the old argument on whether or not to use a large but slower caliber verse a light but fast one. I would second Jim Charmichaels theroy that Velocity Kills via a very large wound channel (initially) coupled with lots of hydrostatic shock. On deer size game and smaller, this can often signify instant lights out.

[myronman3]

like many of you, i dont demand a b/f, and quite frankly, was a bit surprised at the first few kills with my 270, as deer i had shot previously did cover some ground no matter how hard you hit them.   but it sure does spoil a guy.  i have held my shot a few times until the animal reached a trail i could drive to(read no dragging).  it didnt break my heart at all not to chase or recover them from some places that could have been.  i hunt some large swamps, and 50 yards can hurt you more than you would care to imagine.   being able to drop them on the spot is not always necessary; but it sure can be nice and save you a bunch of work to boot.

[ironglow]

   Now, I'm going to "stir the pot"..but I am speaking only from my experience..others will surely differ..

   I believe that given adequate power, that is..enough to shoot clean through the chest with a (hypothetical) full metal jacket;
   The chances for a BF rise with the diameter of the bullet. Obviously using a proper hunting bullet...not an FMJ...

     OK, pile on now..you high velocity, "hydrostatic shock" fans....LOL