Bang Flops?

[Mohawk]

   Don't know. Velocity aside, a .22 that cuts the aorta or vena cava arteries is worth more that a .45 in the lungs. The larger the hole is only relavent when some blood bearing mechanism was hit. As for a bang flop, I'm just not that confident with them unless the CNS was hit, regardless of caliber. If the larger the projectile was the factor then arrows would be the king. 1 1/2 inch wound diameter.

[ironglow]

 ...And a .45 cutting the aorta, with a .22 in the lungs ? Let's compare oranges with oranges , either a .45 or a .22 in the lungs...?

[Mohawk]

  Again, whichever hits the arteries. And yes I have seen a .357 mag. (.357 cal) out perform a ..45 Colt in carbines. Did it hit the arteries? Don't know. I don't think the caliber size was a factor because I have experienced a 12 ga Foster slug, +/- .69 caliber do worse. All depends what you hit, regardless of the caliber diameter. I don't quite think the .45 acp has outperformed the .41 Magnum on big game. If so, I would love to see those field reports.

[ironglow]

  As I noted in my statement, the round must have the energy equivalent to go completely through through chest area.

  A  simple experience answer to the caliber/mass question:

   Many Alaskan guides use a 12 ga shotgun w/slugs as a final "stopper" where the ultimate bang/flop is required,
  ...haven't heard of any of them using a .22 anything for that purpose ! ...And that was the practice back when
  ONLY Foster type slugs were available ! 
 
    We can extrapolate that to African guides..are they more likely to have a "stopper" such as a .600 nitro Express.... or a 22/250 ?

   ..Experience; is the very BEST teacher...

[Davemuzz]

...And a .45 cutting the aorta, with a .22 in the lungs ? Let's compare oranges with oranges , either a .45 or a .22 in the lungs...?

You can never compare oranges with oranges.....it must always start with apples!

Dave

[Mohawk]

  Ok, I'll bite     The .45acp does pass through, at least the deer I have had to dispatch. And a foster slug will not likely exit a bear. I've seen 130lb hogs in texas that did not exit. A sabot slug is different. As far as energy equivalency for calibers. Is a .280 inferior to a .30/06? Is a .270 or 25/06 inferior to both? And if I was having to dispatch a killer bear give me a .338 or 375 mag with open sights and keep the shotgun in the truck!

[ironglow]

  .338, .375, shotgun slug..all good choices...

[myronman3]

  .338, .375, shotgun slug..all good choices...

i've shot plenty of DEER with a shotgun, and believe me, they run after being hit unless you cns them.   i imagine that a bear is going to run just as far if not further than a deer after a lethal hit.  and i dont really trust a shotgun to pentrate hard bone like a rifle will; slugs are pretty soft.   
   my best luck has come to me with rifles.   in regards to the 338 and similar rifles, i have some friends that use them regularly on deer.   i will tell you now that for whatever reason,  these guys seem to lose alot of deer.  to me, one out of five is ALOT, my buddys know that if my rifle goes off there is something down.  the deer they do get tend to run a bit.  bear, not so much.   my personal opinion is that the bullets they are using impact a target like a bear much differently than deer bodies.   admittedly, that is pure speculation.   
   my point?  i believe matching the caliber, bullet, and velocity to your chosen application is the determining factor.   

[Blue Duck]

I always go for the heart/lungs shot.  It has the best margin for error and it minimizes the blood shot and saves meat.  You hit any of the big bones and you ruin a lot of meat.  Its not uncommon to bruise and blood shot meat two feet away from where the bullet hit with a shoulder or spine hit.  Im a meat hunter.  If you can slip the bullet between the ribs, all the better......

[beemanbeme]

I'm with you IG. Weight of metal kills; velocity impresses non-shooting folks hanging around the water cooler.

"Yassir, getcha you one of them Weatherby rifles and some of them thar twinkie bullets, you can aim dead in out to 500 yards!!! Don't need to practice! Iffen you hit 'em in the foot, the hydrostactical pressure will blow their heart apart!! Yassir, seed it happen myownself!!" 

[myronman3]

there are two ways to get it done, and i subscribe to both; and use which ever fits my needs the most.   open shooting the 270, close in and the 44 mag gets the nod.   saying one method is right andthe other is wrong is childish and ignorant.   whatever works for an individual is fine by me, but i guess using that logic i cant look down my nose at anyone.   

[efremtags]

I get about 60% bang flop with 12g slug. Most shots tend to be close (inside 40 yards). It seems that odd enough, I have larger deer fall on the spot where smaller deer tend to run.

In the last 9- 10 seasons:

1995: 1 140lb, 30 yards  buck caught in front shoulder, dropped on spot
1999: 1, 150lb, 50 yards, buck caught in right ear, dropped on spot
         1, 120lb, 15 feet, doe caught high on shoulder, dropped on spot
2001: 1, 105 lb, 25 yards, doe caught through shoulder, ran 40 yards
2004: 1, 180lb, 40 feet, buck caught far back running, shot again on the run through shoulder, dropped on spot
2005: 1, 130lbs, 25 feet, buck caught between brisket in front of shoulder, ran 75 yards
2006: 1, 120lb, 30 yards, doe caught behind shoulder, ran 50 yards.
2007: 1, 160lb, 25 feet, doe caught in shoulder, dropped on spot
         1, 110lb, 40 feet, doe caught in shoulder, ran 50 yards

[Davemuzz]

efremtags.....WOW....you have got to tell me where you hunt!!!! I've never shot....let alone even seen a deer that weighed over 1,110 lbs. And here you are....every year killin 'em and their all over 1,100 lbs!! That's unbelievable!! How do you drag 'em out of the woods?   

Dave

[efremtags]

That would be 1 at 110lbs, etc. and so forth.

[myronman3]

he's just ribbing ya.   

that is very interesting, every deer i shot with a shotgun ran a ways after the hit, except the one i hit in the head.   your experience is VERY different than mine, yet,  i believe you. moreover, i feel no need to call you a liar.   maybe there is something wrong with me, or perhaps my mind is open enough to comprehend that someone may have had a different experience than i had.   either way,  thanks for sharing YOUR firsthand experiences with us.

[Davemuzz]

That would be 1 at 110lbs, etc. and so forth.

Yeah....I know..... ...but when you look at the post.....I was just lookin at it "outside the box".

Dave

[ironglow]

Efrem;
   My results with a 12 ga slug..just about match yours .

[efremtags]

I find the 12G to be almost too effective on deer, where it destroys a tremendous amount of meet. I use 1 oz 3" mag winchester slugs (standard type) out of an 18.5" deer slayer.

I keep shots high on the front shoulder if possible. This keeps it off the bone and away from the neck where there is some good meat. I never get an exit wound with these, and find them half the time in the skin on the opposite side between the hide and ribs.

I wanted to try some sabot loads as I think they will have better range and ruin less meat, but at 4-5 bucks a pop, that's too rich for my blood. I get 15 packs for 5.99 on sale.

[JerryKo]

I had shot a doe a couple years back with a 45/70 405 gr flat nose lead bullet.  I hit very high through both lungs, no ribs that I can remember, and that doe dropped on the spot.  I also shot a doe with a 44/40 (44mag vel.) 200 gr JSP and it fell in stride with the shot to the lower neck and upper shoulder area.  Another, same rifle, stood bleeding with a heart lung shot for about twenty seconds before falling over dead. 

In my second year of hunting a small buck went straight down with a 270 to the forward guts.

I,ve had some spine shots that of course put them down but needed a follow up to finish.

I had one other buck that also fell in stride with a <35yrd shot to the lower neck upper shoulder with my 54 flinter with R.E.A.L 300 grain cast bullet.

Only deer I had to track was with an arrow shot top of heart and one lung high angle from tree stand.  It ran less than 50 yds but thick leaves and such I couldn't see or hear it.

My two cents.

Jerry

[JerryKo]

Opps I missed the part about no arrows.  Bad day.


Jerry

[charles p]

I normally hunt with rifles between 25-06 and 280.  I have used 30-06 and 300WSM.  I've also used a 243.  Throwing out the 243 and the 30 cals, most of my 150+ rifle deer kills have been with 257-284 caliber rifles.  I've killed about three dozen with buckshot.  I can't say that any rifle has produced more bang flops than the other. 

The farther forward I shoot on the deer, the more BFs I get.  The farther the deer is from me, the greater my tendency to shoot a little farther back on the deer's body.   Most lung shot deer are not BFs.  All high-forward shoulder-spine shots are BFs.  Nearly all neck shots are BFs, in my experience.  One of the most disappointing shots is a heart shot.  I think the deer is dead in its tracts and it runs away like a complete miss! 

[backstrap]

I voted rarely i shoot a buck years ago he was looking strait at me head on shot him in the neck with a 30-06 he went strait down,i use calibers like 30-06, 243 and 25-06 and i shoot for the heart and  lung shot and shot many in the heart where there was no heart left when i cleaned the deer, and they all ran 30 or 40 yards so i have never seen a heart shot deer drop in  its tracks or a lung shot deer for that matter.i am going to have to try this shoulder shot some time see if i get a BF

[ironglow]

  One interesting BF that I got some years ago was at daybreak on the second day; and caliber had little to do with it..although it was 12 ga slug from tree stand.
  A deer came out of the woods directly toward me, but with the brush and the low, early morning sun rays, I couldn't see the antlers until he stood on his hind legs and turned his head to look behind.
   I drew a bead on his chest and let drive. Imagine my surprise when I went to gut him and there was no hole in his chest ! I did find that as I fired, he had dropped to four feet just in time to have the slug graze his skull,..just between the horns ! He was simply knocked out, but I dressed him out and took him to my processor.
  When I picked the venison up, Bill, the processor said, " Hey, I didn't find a bullet hole in that deer; just the skin-deep furrow between the horns" !
 
   I was ready for that ! I simply replied nonchalantly; " Shucks, I always do it that way;.. don't want to waste any meat you know" !..I couldn't suppress a snicker..

     ..Bill said..."Yeah, right" !

[efremtags]

Similar thing happened to me on a small buck. He was quartering away from me uphill. It was real foggy and he was walking away quartered at a steep forward angle. He must have moved suddenly as I shot, because I shot and heard him run and crash, but lost sight immediately because he crested the hill. When I got to him, I couldn't find the hole.

After checking out his rack, I noticed blood pouring out of his ear. I drilled him very neatly in the ear lobe and if it weren't for the blood, I never would have known until I skinned him.

Didn.t lose an ounce of meat on that one.

[charles p]

Same thing happened to me.  A friend of mine and I walked up on three deer feeding in a corn field.  It was doe week and we picked the two largest doe, counted to three and shot at the same time.  We loaded both deer in an old International Scout.  As I was driving down the road I noticed in the rear view mirror that a deer was standing in the back of the Scout with the other deer over it's back like a saddle.  I came to an abrupt stop and jumped out or the vehicle in horror.  When we raised the rear window and lowered the tailgate, the "saddled" deer collapsed and died.  Turned out it was a button buck and my friend's bullet had struck it at the base of the antler, only grazing it's head.  Thank goodness it didn't attack me while driving or bail out of the tailgate when I opened it up.

[PartsMan]

One reason I gut in the field.

[NONYA]

So a bullet graze to the head killed it?

[PartsMan]

So a bullet graze to the head killed it?

Kinda puts the old BS meter on alert.
Must have been hydrostatic shock.

The first thing my buddies and I look at is "were'd ya hit him".

[beemanbeme]

If they were shooting a .243, I believe every word of it!  The reason the deer stood up was to give him directions to the packing house. 

[JerryKo]

I've been on the wrong side of a deer round and the cracking I heard thru the air  15-20 yds away would have been enough to kill me if it were 1 inch or closer to my head.  15-20 yds raised my heart rate enough I had to sit down for a few.  Worst part is the fellow missed a second time but I was already tucked behind more cover.

Jerry