How did I do? 45-70 Bolt gun

[Gdbyrd]

I was asking a local gunshop guy if he had ever seen a Mauser-done rifle in a big caliber...two days ago a lady had brought one in.  He wanted to buy it, told her he'd take it but ended up telling me to give her a call because he didn't have the money...so, in my case, I now have a mauser

It has a Navy Arms barrel, wood stock(I want synthetic or something prettier, any options?)
Bolt is straight, I'll need to fix that, who can I get to do that?
I don't see a way to attach a scope, do they make mounts?

The bolt locks up good, it cycles ammo very well, trigger pull is great.  I'm shooting it tomorrow, anything to check over before I do that?  There is hardly any rust at all on the gun, it's actually on the trigger guard and bottom of the magazine than the actual gun.

Only thing I see on the receiver is 1390.  There are also several symbols on the gun.

I may turn this into a project gun.  Thinking about DuraCoat or something similar.  It's just in such nice shape I'd almost feel bad.

Tell me what you think I should have paid for it so I can have an idea as to whether or not I got screwed.

[Mikey]

Gdbyrd:  I think Navy Arms converted some Mausers to 45-70 back in the 60s or 70s.  I believe they may have been the VZ24 Mausers - which are said to be the smoothest Mauser actions of all.  If you want to have the bolt either bent for a scope, or have the handle cut and re-welded, any decent gunsmith should be able to handle that for you for about $50 or less.  If you want to mount a scope you might have to have the action drilled and tapped for scope bases.  Probably get the bolt work done and the d&t for about $50-75.  Make certain the gunsmith knows Mausers and has worked on them (successfully) before. 

Before you shoot it I would suggest having a gunsmith use a no-go guage or a headspace guage to see if she is headspaced properly. 

If the trigger guard and magazine abse are too badly rusted they can be replaced with new parts from some of the larger gun parts places advertised in the Shotgun News but you may also wish to check with Mid-South Supply, one of our sponsors, to see if they carry the parts you may want. 

The 1390 is probably the serial number.  I have one of those rifles with a 4 digit serial number and the action is smooth....

If you wish to restock the rifle I would check our sponsor's list for stock makers (got at least one on the list) or get a new stock from Boyds or someone lesser expensive.  If you re-work or finish your own stocks you may need to open the barrel channel for the larger od barrel but you may not.....

As for how much you paid for that rifle - I would suspect you are a decent man with a eye for a good bargain and the poor woman who was sellin' it may have been or become a recent widder and I'm hopin' you got it for a good deal at less then $100.  However, if you paid up to $300 for it you still got a good deal without takin' from a widder woman.  JMTCW.  Mikey. 

Oh yeah, ps:  if ya don't like the rifle jes send it right on over here to me, with all yer parts an ammo and stuff an I'll deal with it.........

[blackpowderbill]

It is a siamese mauser converted by Navy Arms. They were designed to fire a rimmed cartridge , so making them work with the 45-70 was no big deal.

[Rangr44]

You can have the trigger guard and the removeable floorplate refinished, or (IIRC) the floorplate replaced by any other Mauser floorplate - but the slanted magazine well's part of the one-piece trigger guard assembly that's found only on the Siamese Mausers.

If you replace the trigger guard assembly, be sure to get one for the Siamese.   

[Gdbyrd]

I paid 240$ for it : /  I guess I was thinking they were worth more, lol.  Oh well, it's a neat gun.  Out of curiosity.  How accurate are these guns?  Figuring it's not worth as much as I was thinking, I might toy with it after all.  Be neat to put a new barrel on it..go for something a little more accurate.  I'll be calling a smith on Monday to see what he'll charge me.  Sucks, the nearest one is a good hours drive.

[StrawHat]

I have had two Siamese Mausers, both reworked by Shaw.

Sold one and just recently got another one.

How accurate are they?

How accurate are you?  Even with a Navy Arms barrel, they will easily group minute of bucket to as far as you can shoot.

My first one, while not a MOA gun, kept me happy out to 200+ yards shooting paint cans. With some pretty stout loads.

I found the big detriment to accuracy was my stupid attempts to match the 458 Magnum for ballistics. Recoil was not pleasant.

My newest one is not yet stocked so I can not comment on the accuracy yet.  I can tell you it will be fed nothing hotter than rolling block loads.

As for re barreling the action, the bolt face has been cut for the 45-70 so you will be able to use anything that size or larger.  450 Alaskan and 50 Alaskan come to mind but I would have to check dimensions to make sure they would fit.

I don't recall the twist rate on those but would guess it to be in the 1/22 range. 

Pretty good rifle all things considered.

[Gdbyrd]

How accurate are they?

How accurate are you?  Even with a Navy Arms barrel, they will easily group minute of bucket to as far as you can shoot.

Personally, I can't stand replies like that.  There is a difference between a stock rifle that you would have difficulty hitting the side of a barn with and a custom/high quality piece that can repeatedly put a shot in the same place without effort.  I am assuming everyone knows this. 

Stating that a rifle will easily group minute of anything as far as you can shoot is a bit silly.  I'm not trying to be rude or anything, just think answers like that shouldn't even be given.

Thank you for the other information and I'd like to see what your new gun can do.  When I was talking about rebarreling, I should have been more specific in stating I want to keep the same caliber.  The stock barrel is pretty well polished on the inside after giving it a closer look.  I'll find out some more after I get a chance to shoot it.

[Mikey]

Gdbyrd:  geez, sorry - Siamese sounds like VZ, so I goofed on the Zs and 'ese's.  Mikey.

[MSP Ret]

 

[StrawHat]

How accurate are they?

How accurate are you?  Even with a Navy Arms barrel, they will easily group minute of bucket to as far as you can shoot.

Personally, I can't stand replies like that.  There is a difference between a stock rifle that you would have difficulty hitting the side of a barn with and a custom/high quality piece that can repeatedly put a shot in the same place without effort.  I am assuming everyone knows this. 

Stating that a rifle will easily group minute of anything as far as you can shoot is a bit silly.  I'm not trying to be rude or anything, just think answers like that shouldn't even be given.

Thank you for the other information and I'd like to see what your new gun can do.  When I was talking about rebarreling, I should have been more specific in stating I want to keep the same caliber.  The stock barrel is pretty well polished on the inside after giving it a closer look.  I'll find out some more after I get a chance to shoot it.

Sorry,

E.R. Shaw still works on the Siamese actions and can handle the barrel work if you decide you need to go that route.

The 45-70 is still a great cartridge, glad to hear you are considering keeping it.

[Mikey]

Gdbyrd:  I don't recall hearing or reading anything negative about those conversions.  Conversions of bolt guns from their original calibers to rimmed calibers like the 45-70 has been going on for a while.  British 303s have been converted to 45-70, 45-90, 444 Marlin, in addition to other rimmed cartridges.  Siamese Mausers have long been converted commercially to the 45-70.  The actions are strong enough and the conversions have always been interesting and appeared to be very well done. 

I don't know what scout mounts might be available for that rifle but I would still look to d&t the action and have the bolt cut and re-welded.  Those two tasks should not cost a lot. 

I agree that you should see how it shoots, even with open sights that should tell you a lot.  If she groups decently with open sights I believe you can close those groups right up if she was scoped. 

Regarding stocks:  at least one of our sponsors here at Graybeard's is a stock maker and another sponsor is a major distributor who may carry gunstocks for the Mauser.  Stocks for Mausers are widley available.  I'm sure you would need to open, or have opened the barrel channel to accommodate the barrel and bedding has always assisted consistent accuracy.   If the current barrel shoots accurately enough for your preferences I wouldn't go to the expense of a re-barrel unless you really feel you want to. 

Mikey.

[lrs]

I have 2 siamese mauser 45-70's
One is like yours
The other is an old custom rifle, built by some some unknown gunsmith, but he did a fabulous job.  Not too fancy, just good clean work.  Kind of a rifleman's rifle, from the old days. It once belonged to me, then my father, then I inherited it when he passed away.
Both have proven to be accurate rifles.
You have a fine rifle there. 

[Gdbyrd]

Thanks for the replies.

Gah : /  I haven't had a chance to do much shooting.  I've had some bad medical run ins recently.  One of the symptoms I'm experiencing is fatigue.  I pretty much come home from work, say howdy to my 1 y.o. son, eat, and go to bed.  Has not been fun, so I'm going to have to wait for the weekend to get a chance to shoot it.   Looking forward to it.

The more I think about it the less accurate I think that gun is going to be.  The rifling is almost non-existent.  I was in such a hurry to buy it I didn't even think about looking at that very imporant aspect......I guess in the back of my head I had alreay thought about putting a different barrel on it.  So say I go shoot this gun on the weekend, and at 25 yards, I can't hit a 10 gallon drum.  Where do I go from there? 

Been reading that book where that guy built his own 458 mag, I like the idea of rebarreling it myself(KEEPING CALIBER)..but I want as accurate a gun as I can have.  I like to do long range plinking, and reloading this gun and sending some big chunks of lead downstream sounds awesome.  Like to keep costs down as much as I can too though.

Who knows, I could go shoot it and it could group very well   Have to wait and see, but I'd like to see my options.

[Mikey]

Gdbyrd:  buddy, ya need to go shootin', that'l cure just about anything that's buggin' ya, period.

However, before that give the bore an incredibly good scrubbing.  The previous owner may have used black powder loads and you may have residue built up.  In addition, more recent (post most black powder loadings) barrel rifling is shallower and crud from either black powder or leading could have fouled the bore.  After you clean it up then see how it shoots.  She may do alright, with the sort of concerns a good bedding, maybe a trigger and a good scope would help with. 

If she just doesn't and can't shoot for ya and you know you need another barrel and want to keep it with the 45-70, check our sponsor's list - we have at least one barrel maker and there are whole bunches of others who will go the whole nine yards for you and rebarrel, cut and weld the bolt, drill and tap for scope bases, and blue the gun - it may be less expensive than you first imagine.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[btmidwest]

Hi Folks,  I have looked at this same gun off and on in the recent past.  The trigger on the one I looked at wasn't very good at all.  Has any one had good success with an after market trigger for this Mauser?   Thanks,  Bill

[Gdbyrd]

I'm at work so I can't go to many sites..but from what I remember reading..yes, they do take well to aftermarket triggers made for mausers.  Two that come to mind..something like Timney?  And Bold?  If you search back in the forums there are some posts talking about it.  The trigger on my gun is not bad at all.  I will still probably get a new trigger assembly anyhow...give me something to do

I think the main thing is modifying your stock to accept the trigger.  I think you can pretty well drop it on the gun and it'll work.  The safety is another issue you have to work with.

[Mikey]

I have used both types of aftermarket triggers before and believe the affect is about the same - nice crisp trigger pull with little or no aftertravel.  I prefer the Bold Triggers for the Mausers and prefer the style with the internal safety.  This allows me to get rid of the bolt mounted wing safety for lower scope mounting and to streamline the bolt with a nice non-safety bolt block.  Just having a good aftermarket trigger on my Mausers has helped improve my shooting to their accuracy potential quite a lot.  HTH. Mikey.

[Gdbyrd]

Hey Mikey two quick questions. 

Where is the link for the GBO sponsors?  I was looking into stocks and wanted to see what our sponsors have to offer.

Also, where can you get a "non-safety bolt block?"  I was wondering how that worked.  If you add an aftermarket trigger with a different safety, can you please list a small how-to as best you can?  I'm pretty interested in this, just because it looks like a pretty cheap thing to do that's a hell of a learning experience.

[Mikey]

Gdbyrd:  just click on the 'link's button near the top of any page and that takes you directly to the sponsor list and linkages. 

The bolt block may be available from Mid-South, but certainly someone like SAMCO, SARCO or Gun Parts. 

The Bold Triggers come both with and without integral safety.  If you choose the model with the safety you may need to relieve the inside of the stock a bit to accommodate the action of the new safety.

Replace the bolt block.  It is a pretty simple switch with the 98s.  Install the new trigger and adjust to preference.     I realize that is a pretty 'open' set of instructions but I don't know how much experience you have with Mauser bolts and triggers.  They are pretty straight forward - the triggers come with instructions.  If you need details on bolt disassembly let me know and I'll take one apart, hopefully get it all back together in working order, and get back to ya.  Mikey.

[btmidwest]

Thanks  Mikey

[Gdbyrd]

Well   I finally got a chance to shoot the gun.  It was not feeding well.  With just one in the clip it would feed great.  But anymore and they would not chamber.  Not sure where it was getting caught.  I was shooting the 300gr HP's though..I really think that may have something to do with it.  The recoil was stout with the stock loads.  I have a VERY bad bruise on my shoulder and I only shot it 5 times.  There is no recoil pad on the gun, I'm skinny..so the buttplate just dug in with each shot.  Ordering a recoil pad ASAP.

On to how it shot.  I think I have a pretty darn good gun here.  With the stock loads and at 25 yards with open sites it made one ragged hole.  I was amazed.  25 yards is nothing, I know..but I still think that's pretty darn good with open sites.  I wanted to take it out further, but I just didn't have the shoulder for it anymore. 

I'm going to rework the factory stock for now, but I will definently keep the sponsors of this site in mind if I decide to upgrade.  First bit of work it to get a recoil pad, then try some different bullets..see if they will feed better.  The trigger is surprisingly smooth...but I will probably change that out too.

So:  Recoil Pad, Feeding issues, Stock, Trigger, Bend the bolt and get it tapped for a scope.  Looking pretty good so far..and a TOTAL BLAST TO SHOOT!  I need to get some pictures up : /

[StrawHat]

Well   I finally got a chance to shoot the gun.  Ordering a recoil pad ASAP./

I am not sure if it is still made but I had a Pachmyer Decellarator Pad on mine and it helped a lot!

Good luck with it.

As for feeding, I had to work with mine to get it to feed 300 JHPs.  Most lead and heavier jacketed bullets fed reasonably well.

[Mikey]

Gdbyrd - it sounds like your project has turned out well, very well indeed.  Get a recoil pad on that stock and let's see how well she shoots at 100m.  Send us targets!!!  Ya done good.  Mikey.

[GatCat]

UH, I've got a question for you..is the barrel marked anywhere as being .45/70?? Is it possible that you have an unaltered Siamese Mauser, in its original chambering??
I'm a little worried for you. It sounds to me that with the straight bolt, rough stock, etc., it might just be original. After 1968, imported rifles had to have the name of the importer stamped on the barrel, so just because it says "Navy Arms" does not mean that it has been rechambered.
Just looking out for my fellow shooters!!
Mark
ps, you asked about scoping it. It will need to be drilled and tapped. Two holes in the receiver ring, two in the receiver bridge. Any gunsmith will  have the jig for the standard spacing.

[Gdbyrd]

Heh, that'd suck.  No, the gun is marked for 45/70.  And my shoulder was bruised for over a week from that....with STOCK LOADS..I swear, I don't get it.  I've shot all sorts of calibers and never gotten bruised.  Only thing I can think of is it was just a really bad buttpad..or I guess I should say lack thereof.

Still got that list of to-do's.  Been busy with other stuff.  After I get it taken care of, I need to get a range report of some kind in here.  Thanks for all the help

[lrs]

I've got one myself, one of 2 siamese mausers I have in 45-70.
I don't know what it is exactly about that particular model.  It has the monte carlo stock, the wood is solid and heavy. 
But it hurts to shoot that gun, something is not right, but I don't know what.
I will say this though, it's accurate as all get out.

[Mikey]

Irs:  it is interesting how a stock will affect your shoulder, especially from the bench where we tend to take the most uncomfortable and unnatural shooting positions and all the force of recoil is directed straight back at us. 

I would ask if the stock is bedded?  I'm sure it is but sometimes I have found that bedding a stock helps reduce recoil, or at least felt recoil.  The stock may or may not impact so much of the recoil back on ya dependent on its design.  A Monte Carlo stock seems to have a long narrow end from top to bottom and that definately needs a good recoil pad to make it comfortable to shoot.

When I shoot from the bench I always wear at least my padded shooting coat AND a PAST Recoil Shield.  If I am sweatin' up a storm I may also take a fairly thick piece of soft leather and lay it over the stock so the stock doesn't keep smackin' my face every time I touch the rifle off.  But then, I'm a woozy; and old, so I can dress up (sorta like for goin' to the buffet) and be comfortable.............. Mikey.

[ken98k]

I am in the process of converting a Siamese to 45-70 and I can tell you that there are very few parts from these Japanese made mausers that are interchangeable with a standard 98.
Be sure of what you have before you start buying stocks, etc.

[Empty Pockets]

Ken98K is right.  I have converted many of these to 45-70 and they can be quite a challenge.  If it is missing parts, pass on it.  The parts are as rare as rocking-horse..uh..manure.  What you get out of these Siamese Mausers is dependant on your ability and the work you put into it.  Acutally, I think the only part that interchanges with the standard 98 is the trigger pin.  The barrel is threaded differently, the trigger guard screws are threaded differently, the '98 stocks on the market will not work with the slanted box at all.  The scope mounts will have to be custom made or, if using 98 mounts, modified to account for the difference in bridge/ring heights from the 98.  If you proceed, make sure you get a twist rate suitable for the 350 to 400 grain bullets, a barrel for a .458 Win Mag will not be accurate.

If you want .45-70 performance out of a bolt gun you will have a much easier time taking a standard '98 (or 700 or M70 or 77 etc) and chambering it to the .450 Marlin.  It will save you a lot of headaches.

[Mikey]

Or you can get one of the Gibbs 45-70 conversions made from No4 MI Enfields................