Author Topic: 45-70 VS 375HH (Read 18482 times)

JJHACK · « **Reply #60 on:** July 13, 2009, 05:06:21 AM »

Bell killed ele's with a 7mm because it was cheap and he did not care if they died on the spot, he prefered they run off and spoil so that when they came back with donkey carts they could follow their nose to the rotting carcasses and slide out the ivory. The choice of the 7mm was not based on killing power, or functional hunting. It was cheap and let them run off to die and rot. That is in no way any relationship to current functional sport hunting needs today. Removing ivory is no easy task from a fesh kill, they however slide right out once the head is badly spoiled.

It's not difficult with a crew of boys to search the bush, look for vultures, listen for hyena and jackal. And if they missed a few along the way, they might bump into them next time through. Ivory lasts for a hella long time laying in the bush. The frequent reference to Bell using a 7mm rifle for elephants requires a lot more understanding of his poaching operation then just claiming it was a functional Elephant hunting rifle!

AtlLaw · « **Reply #61 on:** July 13, 2009, 06:15:45 AM »

Quote from: don heath on July 09, 2009, 01:24:42 AM

many (myself included) consider the .458 Win in it's standard loadings (500grn @2050fps) inadequate for self defence against ele,

Just for my own informaton, what do you consider to be the minimum adequate velocity, and optimum velocity if different from the former number, for a .458 dia., 500 gr. bullet intended to be used against elephant? $:-\$

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #62 on:** July 13, 2009, 06:27:57 AM »

From what I read, Bell used a FMJ bullet and shot them in the head and "brained" them. The FMJ penetrated the skull, thus the smaller caliber. Of course a heart or lung shot with a bullet like that, and they would run off and die a slow death. In the article I read, the area between an elephants eyes or between the eye and ear was about 16", so that was the size of a deer's chest. Not hard to hit with a 7mm.

JJHACK · « **Reply #63 on:** July 14, 2009, 07:44:22 PM »

There are many accounts of what went on during this era. When sitting with many old PH's and listening to them recount the old days the stories are much different then the romance of a written commentary trying to spin the poacher into a hero.

James Hunter was another interesting guy who killed a hella lotta game, as was taylor. Both were viewed as significant experts in African hunting and firearms. But if you look into the real story of these guys I promise you it would be a shocking revelation as to their lifestyle which is not frequently spoken of, nor is it published anyplace I know of. However they had some rather disturbing habits which are not part of the hunting lore or the "romance" of their books.

rem308 · « **Reply #64 on:** July 15, 2009, 03:00:31 AM »

I do not have any experience in shooting dangerous game, but I am planning on shooting a buffalo in Australia in the near future. The reading that I have done on big game hunting by the experts in the field Selous, Hunter, etc, their opinions seem to be the following.
- Bullet penetration is very important, velocity of about 2400fps, solids or well constructed soft points that do not break up. Comments about penetration vary but on dangerous game 375 H&H up to 500 NE seem to be favoured for penetration, this is not for stopping power.
- A rifle must be comfortable to shoot, this is in terms of recoil, ability to quickly take an accurate shot in all types of terrain that will be experienced, and the shooter must be able to accurately take confident shot. Stopping power in a charge situation usually is a large NE round like 500 / 600, but most hunters preferred to use a smaller round 450, 470 seemed to be popular in doubles for normal hunting in the close stuff as the larger calibres were too heavy to carry hunting all day and then shoot accurately when tired.
- Most hunters who used small calibres for hunting elephant had a large NE as a back up rifle. Some of the hunters killed and maimed went into dangerous situations in close quarters with the small calibre and not with their backup rifle.
- Bullet and case construction and quality are far better than ever in the past offering greater reliability and performances, but does this apply to all calibres that people want to take against dangerous game. 470 NE, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby... were designed for dangerous game hunting, not deer, bison, bears. It should also be noted that the popular big game chamberings are based on reliability of performance, as if they failed they soon fell out of favour.

I have shot lots of small game with .22, .222, .223, .308, shotguns, but there is distinct differences in how the animal dies, and where you have to hit it to kill it, depending on what you shoot it with. Personally I will use a 375 H7H for buffalo, as it has a good reputation for being able to do the job. I do not have the liberty of shooting hundreds of buffalo to eliminate any doubt in where to shoot with a small calibre to ensure the much loved one shot kill, depending on the shot I would probably try to smash at least one shoulder, if not both to make sure that I am not charged or anyone else put in danger. An elephant has a small brain and an unbelievable amount of protection around it, those hunters who shot 1000’s of them must have an extremely good understanding of the anatomy to reliably kill in what you would think is varying shoot angles etc.

For me there are a lot of what ifs in shooting dangerous game, I believe I can handle the situation, but feel I would be better prepared mentally by not having doubts in the rifle that I am using. Given the relatively cold responses that go with the 45/70 versus 375 H&H duscussions I would say there is some risk in taking the 45/70 against dangerous game that an individual can take, but what would you recommend to a friend or family member for a calibre to use against dangerous game that has doubt cast over it like the 45/70??

Just an opinion

don heath · « **Reply #65 on:** July 27, 2009, 02:40:21 AM »

AtLaw

The .458 Lott is just that- a little longer, a (lott) better. A 500grn bullet that doesn't deform will reach the vitals on an elephant from just about any angle except straight away. To achieve that, you need 500grns at 2400+ fps. It is the reason more and more PH's are starting to lean towards the 500/416 as chambering in double rifles for use on ele- it is better for elephant and lion than a .500NE or .470.

I would say that the ideal impact velocity is somewhere arround the 2400fps mark. Go much above that, and bullet failure becomes more than a rare occurance. Go much below 2300fps and you start sheding penetration and effectiveness. For Buffalo- the bigger the hole in the muzzel the better as a general rule. For elephant, penetration wins! On a Recent hunt with me, Wayne van Zwoll (from Guns & Ammo) tried out a .375 using the Norma African PH ammo (350grn bullet at 2400fps). Entered chest and exited through rear hip. As a client, he didn't need the penetration- but for a PH who might need to take that shot in reverse - penetration is darn good to have!

AtlLaw · « **Reply #66 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:08:08 AM »

Thanks Don, I'm sitting in a seminar right now so I can't go into as much detail as I usually do. I asked because I like to play with my 45-120, whose case is almost a twin to the 450 Nitro, and now I have a goal to shoot for... so to speak.

Heretofore it's been 2150 fps.

don heath · « **Reply #67 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:36:45 PM »

Atlaw - depends on what rifle you have the .450-120 in! Had a client who bought a cheap Italian double originaly chambered for .45-70 that he reamed out to .45-120. It worked fine and regulated at 2100fps. If he pushed the velocity up even a bit it a) shot split groups and b) started to get sticky on opening.

For a client, .458 win balistics are all you need. No PH is going to expect you to take a ¼ing away brain shot or a texas heart shot on ele!

If your rifle is a single shot...

I owned a Webley falling block in .450NE. Pet load was a 450grn Barnes x or solid at 2350fps. Still miss that rifle

AtlLaw · « **Reply #68 on:** July 28, 2009, 03:25:16 AM »

Thanks for your input Don! This is a lot more interesting then listening to a judge lecture on jury selection...

My 45-120 is a reamed out H&R single shot. Of course all of this is academic since I'll probably never hunt elephant... $:-\$ or Africa!

But the load development is fun, if only to experience what the professionals are talking about!

But okay, I got it! 450 solid at 2350! I can see it now... next time any appropriate subject comesup... "this here is my old friend Don Heath's favorite stopping load for the 450 NE... he suggested it to me personally when we were talking about hunting elephant with my 45-120..."

calling4life · « **Reply #69 on:** July 28, 2009, 01:29:56 PM »

All this talking about penetration being important. It would be hard to deny the 4570 based on this, wouldn't it???
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm
In fact, if one conducts penetration tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate

It was said in a response on here 2400 fps velocity, go below that and you start shedding penetration, well according to that article penetrations STOPS increasing at impact speeds above 1250-1300fps, thus the reason the 4570 is actually OUT PENETRATING these other rounds. Faster definitely isn't resulting in more penetration, but actually the opposite.

Another good read on meplat and wound channel diameter, showing why the 4570 is not a bad choice.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/071701.asp

Is this stuff just sheer BS?

I'm not throwing this at you pretending it's my tests or findings, or to try and discredit any of you, I would honestly like to know. Should I get the chance to hunt Africas dangerous game, or even dangerous game elsewhere, it is good info to know.

Whether you hate these discussions because you think they are BS or not, intelligently making your point, or proving your point gives great information to others who read this. Making a thread based off the facts, or intelligent reasoning, infinitely important, as it can teach others forever. Thread has been a good read for me so far.

dukkillr · « **Reply #70 on:** July 28, 2009, 01:54:42 PM »

Quote from: calling4life on July 28, 2009, 01:29:56 PM

All this talking about penetration being important. It would be hard to deny the 4570 based on this, wouldn't it???
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm
In fact, if one conducts penetration tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate

It was said in a response on here 2400 fps velocity, go below that and you start shedding penetration, well according to that article penetrations STOPS increasing at impact speeds above 1250-1300fps, thus the reason the 4570 is actually OUT PENETRATING these other rounds. Faster definitely isn't resulting in more penetration, but actually the opposite.

Another good read on meplat and wound channel diameter, showing why the 4570 is not a bad choice.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/071701.asp

Is this stuff just sheer BS? I'm not throwing this at you pretending it's my tests or findings, or to try and discredit any of you, I would honestly like to know. Should I get the chance to hunt Africas dangerous game, or even dangerous game elsewhere, it is good info to know.

Whether you hate these discussions because you think they are BS or not, intelligently making your point, or proving your point gives great information to others who read this. Making a thread based off the facts, or intelligent reasoning, infinitely important, as it can teach others forever. Thread has been a good read for me so far.

This idea violates the laws of physics as I understand them. So I spent a little while thinking about the possible reasons and doing a bit of reading.

Quote

Penetration also depends on bullet construction and deforming bullets (soft nose) sometimes show less penetration at higher velocity because they give more resistance to the medium due to altering their shape. But nondeforming bullets (solids) never can exhibit lower penetration when travelling with higher velocity, all other parameters being equal. But there are still some mysteries about less penetration at higher velocities around, together with arguments presenting erroneous physical statements. First, a simple logic: When the higher velocity bullet decelerates to normal velocity, it further should now penetrate normal. In summa: more penetration for the high velocity bullet. From physics: The force, which is needed to penetrate, is F=d(m*v)/dt. That means, the force equals the change in momentum with time. And is higher with higher velocity.

From: http://www.grosswildjagd.de/momentum.htm

It makes sense with what I was suspecting. Mainly that the article you cited didn't include the actual bullets used and I wonder if they deformed. If they didn't, I wonder if the additional velocity caused them to become unstable during penetration and tumble. Either way, it's not actually velocity that's leading to decreased penetration, but rather bullet performance.

efremtags · « **Reply #71 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:55:29 PM »

A lot of these published tests put soft points against the hardcast (apples and oranges comparison). I would like to see the same bullet shot from a 458WM, 458 LOTT and 45-70 at diferent velocity extremes (1500, 1900, 2300 FPS). That would put the debate to bed.

I think there is a nugget of fact behind the same bullet with regards to penetration and impact velocity. I believe that is somewhat related to hydro-force (body of liquid or similar) and not related to solids material necessarily. Think about it, a non-deforming bullet driven faster definately creates a bigger wound channel as it creates a cone of force ahead of the bullet. The faster the bullet all things relative the bigger this cone. That acts as a parachute slowing the bullet.
There is a lot of data regarding hardcast performance vs velocity. This is all relative in ballistics gel, flesh/organs and comparable medium. Not so much in sand or dry paper.

faster is not a bad thing. You want a bigger wound channel in game. Penetration is relative, you need enough, not enough is bad, too much buys you nothing.

I think a lot of garret ammo site info is based on 2 important things, Garret is trying to prevent bullets from cracking at full velocity, so he overcompensates with a heavier round, which in turn slows it down do to limited case capacity. 2nd, this ammo intended for up close (IE Head/spine shots) so wound channel is not critical, penetration and hitting nervous system is key. The 540 is not as versatile as the 420 in that regard, but the 420 may not work as well at point blank on bone.

For me, the 45/70 is quite capable, but the good soft points out there make it an awesome gun, probably better than the hardcast (especially with new Hornady 325). I load 420 WFN, but I haven't found a reason to use them over the 325 or the remington 405 SP yet.

efremtags · « **Reply #72 on:** July 28, 2009, 03:10:24 PM »

found link most referred to penetration tests.

500 NE is with SP and solids

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

calling4life · « **Reply #73 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:17:41 PM »

That penetration article compared 1 bullet in the differing velocities. They didn't seem to compare soft core against hardcast.

"Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s. " "Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop"

Garrett also uses their Big Meplat values to describe how they actually produce bigger wound channels, that is why I posted that 2nd article.

The bullets that beat the 540 gr. 4570 hammerhead round are the 600 nitro 900 grain, 505 barnes S. in a 700 grain, 500 linebaugh 500 grain at 1086fps, 475 linebaugh 430 grain at 1272fps.

The bullets pushed faster were the 900 grain and 700 grain bullets at around 2300 fps, but a 500 NE at 2500fps pushed a 570gr bullet just as far as the 4570 at 55". This just from the original table that pops up I couldn't load the other links.

They didn't test that 540gr Garrett round on the bone/paper though, which I would have liked to see.

don heath · « **Reply #74 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:15:41 PM »

1) Test media do not resemble elephants.
2) Have never seen a cast bullet stand up to the impact on a zygomatic arch or tusk base.
3) Hard experience sugests that a .458 Lott thumps an ele down significantly harder than a .458 win.
4) Seen a .460 Weatherby drive a bullet all the way from south to north on an ele. Seen a .458 Lott drive through into the boiler room. Seen .458 Win fail to get through stomach. Seen 600grn Hard cast and copper plated bullets (frontier) from a .458 win (at 1700fps) disintegrate on the leg bone, and the tusk base. Even on a side brain shot the hard cast bullets failed to exit.
5) A .458 win will seldon exit the head of even a cow ele on a frontal shot. A .458 Lott almost always will.

8 years ago, Frontier launched their heavy for cal hard cast bullets with a copper electroplated jacket to stop fowling. I was given 100 and asked to test them on the zim PH proficiency exam as they had performed very well in test media and on buffalo. They failed on elephant.

I have guided clients who have taken ele and buff with Garret ammo in their .45-70's. Adequate for a client being backed up by a professional, and provided you are prepared to pass up any poor angle shots. Straight on or fully broadside - no problem. Would I trade my 9,3 x62 in for a 45-70? Nope even though I love lever actions...one day I will convert my M71 to something legal and safe for use on ele...

efremtags · « **Reply #75 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:47:07 AM »

Is the issue with hardcast a failure of bullet mettulargy or driving velocity or both.

It appears that velocity on animals plays an improtant role in penetration, all else being equal.

With the exception of elephant, which I think requires a clas of ammo/caliber unto itself, would you consider the 420GR WFN at near 2000FPS (loads listed several threads prior) to be adequate on Buff. How about 350 - 405GR SP. Compare that to 375SP or solids.

don heath · « **Reply #76 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:28:41 AM »

Efremtags - hard cast failures are due to no lead alloy being strong enough - Bear in mind that soft brass (like barnes) often mushroom and hard brass (like PMP) often breaks up...I prefer mushrooms to broken... As velocity goes above 2400fps bullet failures with monolithic solids and steel jacketed bullets become more common.

Adequate for buffalo... the .45-70 with hard cast, brass monolithics or steal jacketed solids is more than adequate - However, you are now limmiting yourself to non expanding bullets. I generally recommend Swift A frame or Barnes TSX to clients. From a .375, 416 or .458 Win you can take a shot from any (reasonable) angle with such bullets - and have all the benefits of a jagged wound channel. If you use soft points in the .45-70 you now have to limmit the shots that you may take. With a decent soft point a .375 will drop a buffalo quicker than a .45-70 with solids will.

The problem for many though is that just about anywhere you find buff (north from South Africa) you also encounter elephants - even if you are not hunting them. If you are going to have a dangerous game rifle it must be suitable for ele, hippo lion and buff. If you are a client comming on safari - I have guided alot of sucessful hunts for ele and buff where a muzzel loader, handgun or bow was used. And a .45-70 beats just about all of those both in terms of power and penetration. It may not be strictly legal (as noted above the 45-70 is only legal for buff in Mozambiqe - it doesn't meet minimum ME in other African States) but that is invarably between you and the PH- and if the government will give me a permit for a bow, BP or handgun hunt, why should they quibble about a clients centre fire rifle.

efremtags · « **Reply #77 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:40:28 AM »

great feedback

mk454 · « **Reply #78 on:** September 19, 2009, 08:22:16 AM »

don, great comments, i personally would use the grizzly punch bullets in 45/70. what do you think of them? they are 405 grains at 2050fps. that said, my 45/70 doesn't touch my 460wby but i feel it very much the equal of my .375 but i don't have an infatuation with hardcast. too many failures in my casull. i've gone to barnes and bullets like corbon penetrators which are hardcast jacketed by copper. anyway, just wanted to know what you thought or if you had experience with those loads.

jason045 · « **Reply #79 on:** March 24, 2010, 03:05:02 PM »

What is the generally accepted minimum muzzle energy for hunting buffalo?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #80 on:** March 24, 2010, 03:11:51 PM »

Quote from: jason045 on March 24, 2010, 03:05:02 PM

What is the generally accepted minimum muzzle energy for hunting buffalo?

It varies from country to country.
sometimes it is 375H&H other places are 9.3X62.
Not sure.

jason045 · « **Reply #81 on:** March 24, 2010, 04:39:49 PM »

I didnt really mean what was legal or a particular cartridge for that matter. What I meant was as a generic number, caliber notwithstanding, how many ft-lbs are needed to do the job with a reasonable amount of certainty. If the level of the 375 hh is the benchmark then we're talking 4300-4500 ft-lbs, no?

dukkillr · « **Reply #82 on:** March 24, 2010, 04:56:55 PM »

If you are looking for a number to then claim to "load up" a 45-70 to please just stop now. It will only get this thread locked.

jason045 · « **Reply #83 on:** March 24, 2010, 05:44:22 PM »

Im just curious, not taking a side here...375 h&h loads produce between 4300 and 4600 ft-lbs while 9.3x62 produces 3600-3900. My barnes manual shows there 300 grain TSX at up to 2569 fps in a 24" 45-70. That is 4396 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. I have not tried this load nor do I ever intend on taking a 45-70 to africa but I have no doubt the numbers are legit if barnes published it. I am just curious to know why everyone thinks this is inadequate for buffalo. Not for elephant, but for buffalo. Is it because the s.d. is low because of being light for caliber or that it sheds its velocity fairly quickly because of a low b.c.? It just seems logical to think that as long as distance was kept reasonable, say 75-80 yards, it would perform well. I know what looks good on paper isnt always as practical in the field, but thats why I ask. Just trying to get a better grasp of the ballistics and practical on game performance.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #84 on:** March 25, 2010, 06:44:54 AM »

With anything you have to draw a line.
And that one Barnes reload and some of the Buffalo Bore stuff is where you get the 4,000 plus foot pounds of energy.
Boddington did a "Tracks across Africa" where his daughter shot a Buffalo with 405 Win that was souped up to meet the 4,000 foot pounds. The rounds were and are factory Hornady loads, and that may be what makes them legal is the FACTORY loading.

Now here is a quick question. Would you go hunt Cape buffalo with a 450 Marlin?
The 45-70 + loads are equal to the 450 marlin that touches the bottom end of 458 Win Mag. Not the 5,000 Foot pound loads but the 3,500 to 4,200 Foot pound down loaded 458 loads. Lott made the 458 Lott when he had a bad experience with the 458 Win Mag not proforming on a buffalo that ran him over. So knowing that that 458 Win Mag was not enough for Lott and he went bigger with the same 500 grain loads you now want to hunt these same beasts with a 38 Special version of the 458 Win mag with smaller lighter bullets?
I know this is 45-70 Vs 375 H&H but thought making everything in .458
The 45-70 started out as a military round that was pressed into hunting service. The 375H&H was designed as a Big Dangerous game hunting round.

jason045 · « **Reply #85 on:** March 25, 2010, 02:48:22 PM »

You're not getting what I'm saying. I dont want to take a 45-70 to africa. If I ever make it over there I will be using a rigby. I just dont understand why everytime the 45-70 is mentioned here eyes collectively roll and noses turn up. It may be marginal but the numbers would certainly suggest that it is better than the 9.3x62 which is generally deemed if not acceptable then legal. As for the .450 marlin, i dont know if the loads are lower pressure because of the intended use in leverguns but it doesnt come close to max 45-70 loads. About 300fps shy actually. It may be able to be loaded hotter in a single shot with a longer oal but I dont know that. As for the mauling Jack Lott took, the same could have happened with a 500 nitro. Just one isolated incident. Im sure many a buff has run off or charged even after be hit with the might 458 lott. Would a 400gr sp loaded to 2185fps be a better option? How does sectional density relate to a bullets ability to penetrate? I found an energy calculator that has a new formula that I've never heard of before called "efficacy". It is defined as energy in ft-lbs times projectile cross-sectional area in square inches. Does this sound like a good comparative formula for bullets of different diameters and velocities? If anyone is interested they can check it out at billstclair.com/energy.html#efficacy

efremtags · « **Reply #86 on:** March 25, 2010, 05:39:33 PM »

Good reply Jason,

I have been saying repeatedly that the 45/70 is comparable to the 375, and have yet to see someone compare the performance fairly without going into a debate on how the 375 is superior because it shoots further better for obvious reasons. I also hate it when people say the 458WM needed improving because it did not do enough, so the 45/70 must fall real short. It misses the point again. The 45/70 is not a stopper and should not be carried as one. that doesn't mean it is not an effective hunting round in it's limits (no worse than the 9.6mm or 375). Also, we keep comparing closer to 19th century than 21st century equipment when it comes to Africa. Mallory attempted to climb Everest wearing wool and using equipment made of wood/leather. That doesn't make gore-tex and titanium inferior because it doesn't date back 100 years.

I think the reality is the 375 has a long history and it is tough to compare a newbie (relative to africa) when there are other more mainstream choices, so the 45/70 is always and always will be an odd man out.

JJHACK · « **Reply #87 on:** March 25, 2010, 07:45:46 PM »

Anyone that wants to use a 45/70 for any animal in Africa is welcome to hunt with me. I have no problems taking a hunter with the 45/70 as his choice for a gun. Even for DG it's no problem with us.

I would like to make sure that some of the thoughts on the Sectional Density are understood. Many people today use the SD as the base line for comparing penetration. It is a good factual use of a variable when the bullets are all solids.

It has absolutely no redeeming value as a variable when they are soft points. The length of the bullet is used in the calculation do determine SD. Soft points at the instant of impact are greatly reduced in length. So the SD number is only functional before impact. Which as you see would have no value to a calculated penetration value.

Think of it this way. The 180 grain .308 diameter softpoint with a high SD number once mushroomed to .430 would have about the same SD as a 180 grain .44 mag bullet. That SD is far less then the 180 grain .308 bullet that it started out as.

Once the softpoint bullet impacts the skin, the length to weight ratio drastically changes, this is the instant of impact, before 1/4" of penetration. So the entire SD conversation is only comparable with solids.

jason045 · « **Reply #88 on:** March 26, 2010, 01:35:05 AM »

But what about that efficacy formula...energy times area. Does this sound like a good predictor of killing/stopping power when talking about different diameters, expanding/solids, etc. I believe that energy, which uses the square of the velocity is weighted too heavy in favor of velocity. Maybe this formula which takes into account the area of the projectile where it impacts the animal would lean the numbers back toward big, massive, large diamete bullets at more moderate velocities. the .40 calibers on up is where this formula would really show the impact on game imo. No expert though...just want to know what the experts do think.

don heath · « **Reply #89 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:31:42 AM »

Penetration of a solid bullet is a simple matter of KE overcomming resistance...Ie velocity is more important than bullet weight. That is a simple law of Physics and hads been proved many, many times by the military trials accross the world. The 'rider' is that the bullet must be strong enough to survive the impact.

From experience, steel jacketed bullets (depending on which steel and how thick) are good up to 2500fps. Brass mono's (which brass?) begin deforming at around 2500fps for eco brass. Other aloys may resist at higher velocities and others fracture at speeds as low as 2400fps.

Steel over tungsten is good to about 3400fps after which you need plain tungsten up to 4000fps and then you move onto depleted uranium etc.

In terms of 'knock down' power with softs??? well what kind of game are you asking about. A Zebra will show the effect of 'shock' or 'bullet power' much sooner than a hippo. The .505 Gibbs is spectacularly effective on zebra, impressive on buffalo and about as effective as a 9,3x62 on hippo...ie a hippo is simply too big for the energy transfer from the bullet to have any effect. If you put a hole in the heart, it runs off and dies. Put a hole through the lungs and it will run a loooong way. Hit the brain and it dies instantly.