45-70 VS 375HH

[rex6666]

I keep hearing the comparison of these to and will the 45-70 kill DG in Africa, and the 45-70 is just as good. I also hear that in most African countries the 375hh is the minimum. That should end the argument, unlwss of course you have a rifle in 45-70 cal. that is stamped 375hh on the barrel
and shoots 375hh bullets.

[Varmint Hunter]

My 45-70 with level 4 loads is waaaayyyy more powerful than the ancient 375 H&H. But why start another controversial thread that will just annoy us 45-70 owners and waste bandwidth with all the redundant responses?

[JJHACK]

For starters there would need to be a universal definition of  "power"   or Killing power,     or power at what distance,         or  power as declared by the laws of the country your hunting in. Power by Muzzle energy? Power by Momentum?  Power within what limits of handloading, and shot from what kind of firearm?

Many would bring in a Siamese Mauser or Ruger Number 1, or an older 30" barrel 45/70. These are much different then a Marlin guide gun. Same with a 26" barrel 375HH shooting 380 grain bullets at 2400fps. That is not the same gun or load as a more standard 24" rifle shooting 300 grain bullets.

It's easy to debate things when everyone has a different goal or "ideal" in mind.

Define power where everyone agrees, Select the standard type of loads and firearms or open it to "anything goes"  and then you can go forward with the thread. Otherwise you get every wacko dreaming up some magic level of power and narrow conditions within their comfort zone.

Just as a quick example, the 380 grain bullet at 2400fps gets 4861 FPE if that is the standard you would chose to base this on, then the 45/70 would have to exceed that. So from a mauser you get a 400 grain bullet at about 2100fps as I recall, somebody will correct me if this is wrong I'm sure. This is a 3917FPE if that is the measure you choose to use, if not select the measure or power first before you debate 5 different directions and go in circles with everyone fighing over their personal opinions.

[efremtags]

I believe a Fair comparison would be readily available ammo of suitable bullet construction for this game. Some of the ammo mentioned is either oddball or open only to handloads.

An appropriate comparison would be:

Buffalo bore 350 gr. J.F.N. (2100 fps / M.E. 3500 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun)
Grizzly Ammo 400 gr. PUNCH  W.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3600 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun)

Federal 300 gr TBX (2470 fps, ME 4064 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)
Federal 300 gr TB solid (2470 fps, ME 3966 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)

These represent a premium soft point and solid, loaded well within caliber capability in typical rifle configurations. Note estimates on 45/70 based on manufacturer velocity reduction for guide gun.

I believe within 100 yards on well placed shots, you would be hard pressed to determine an advantage between the 2. I believe the 45/70 400gr will out penetrate and perform better than a 300GR TB solid (wider metplat, heavier round). I think these two rifles can be considered in the same class of stopping power or game killing performance, whatever terminology is used to specify killing performance.

I believe becasue of the large bore diameter of the 45/70, it tends to get compared to bigger calibers (458 WM, lott, 470NE). I believe there is no comparison here as all of these calibers are well into the 5000 ft Lb area and can throw 500gr bullets as fast or faster than the 45/70 will do with a 400gr. As I have stated many times, 45/70 is 2/3rd the round of these larger rounds (AKA dedicated DG stoppers).

I believe the 45/70 is more versatile as it is lighter and handier and hand loaded premium ammo is relatively inexpensive, but these are subjective personal preferences.

Let me know if this is an accurate summary.




 

[JJHACK]

In the Freestate and the Eastern cape I've seen a lot of shots at super trophies which are in open rolling grassland. Maybe the best shot you're gonna get is at 250-300 yards. An Eland bull at 2000lbs 300 yards away is gonna need a level of retained velocity, a somewhat flat trajectory, and enough power to crumple it.

Turning the corner and seeing bigger game like Rhino, Buffalo, etc. down in a canyon may put you at 70 yards from them. The days of "gun bearers" have long since passed. What are you gonna do about those longer trophy shots? I've not tried to shoot a 45/70 at 300 yards, but I'll guess it's not a realistic option. I've had guys with a 375HH shoot and crumple buffalo at 20 yards, and shoot a 30lb klipspringer at 350 yards on the same day in the same area. Then shoot a Zebra, Black Wildebeest, and Eland the next few days and all the shots were 200-400 yards away. Saeed Al  Maktoom shot several eland with his 375 at way over 400 yards.

There is a bigger picture then just raw diameter and how much penetration you get. Poking a hole clean through is not a very good plan for most game. Who would choose a solid over a soft in a .308 for deer? There would be a lot of tracking on that hunt!

[efremtags]

Though your point on range ability and versatility are quite valid between these 2 calibers, I am not sure the address the initial question at hand.

For DG, range is never an issue as this is a close up affair. For plains game, a reasonable 45/70 load (light 325-350GR ammo) will work out to 200 yards. The capability of the gun beyond that becomes a very personal and moral preference for the hunter at this point. Most game taken in the world is taken under 100 yards. I personally never shoot at game beyond 200 yards. I am a very capable shot and have shot varmits out to 400 yards, so it is not my ability, just a preference. Many people also hunt handgun and archery, which limtis you to inside 50 yards in many instances. Does that mean the weapon of choice is no good. Hardly, it just means it has to be used within its limitations. If you accept that, there is no issue.

If you are hunting mainly plains game, neither a 375 or 45/70 is the best tool, a heavy 300 or 338 would be even better.

I believe the discussion should be more generalized, given the ballistic comparison, inside 100yards on DG type game, how do the 2 compare. For giggles, lets open this up to 200 yards for non-DG species and ask the same question.

[JJHACK]

Here is  a quote from above

"If you are hunting mainly plains game, neither a 375 or 45/70 is the best tool, a heavy 300 or 338 would be even better.


How much experience do you have hunting herd game species in Africa to suggest that the 300 mag or 338 is better then the 375HH? What would make the 338 a better choice? These conversations start to become a bit unusual when statements like this are made without some level of experience and first hand visual knowledge.

Certainly you must have something in mind to suggest that the 338 or 300 mag is somehow superior to the 375HH? I'm interested in hearing what that might be.

There is nothing the 338 does that the 375HH does not do better. They are within an inch in trajectory, and with many loads the 375HH with the TSX is actually flatter shooting. The 375HH makes a bigger hole, it has less recoil in many rifles, and it's legal for DG. I  just don't see where the 338 has even a single advantage over the 375HH. Regarding the 300 mag, it's flatter shooting beyond 300 yards, but that distance makes up the very great majority of realistic shots. Outside the trajectory advantage there is again nothing that the 300 does better.

Where the 375HH really shines is the fact that it's legal for all DG, and it will provide a better blood trail by a huge margin over the 300 mag or even the 338. From my experience in this business for much of my life, there is very little that can be done better by any cartridge as an all around choice in Africa then the 375HH. The 416 comes as close as any, but the recoil is significant and is the biggest problem for the majority of shooters.

The 375HH has the greatest level of power a shooter can handle for the investment he makes in recoil.

[efremtags]

My point here is that there is always an optimal configuration. I have never hunted plains game. I can not imagine that they are any different than whitetail through elk class game. The undisputed most popular caliber range for this game is 300 - 338 not 375.

I agree that the 375 is a trade-off in performance and power.It provides both well, but is not perfect in either.

I fail to see any discussion regarding any of the items I have brought up. I also fail to see how repeated un-realistic comparisons in ballistics having any relevance to these topics. No one would argue a 308 solid is an appropriate tool for anything other than piercing armor. How is that comparable to a 458 FN solid, with a metplat wider than 33 caliber. I provided several comparable options for comparison in each rifle class, so lets compare them on their merits. If a solid is inappropriate, don't use it. However solids are used widely in Africa and are marketed for that use, so please insinuate that I am coming from left field on this.

I also fail to see how penetration is not a large factor in lethality. A 12G slug provides well over 3000FT lbs of KE, why is it not more popular for big game except in areas where it is required. Bullets kill from tissue damage. I fail to see how the ability to break more bone and penetrate more vitals is a bad thing without sacrificing ability to damage tissue.

[JJHACK]

You can carry this on without me, I am going to pull out and leave you with the feelings that you have now, and then after you do hunt in Africa and see the differences you will hopefully be much more clear on the way things work.  African game has significant differences from North American game, there in lies the problem. I'm no longer interested in the topic as it's beating a dead horse with a fella who has never been there telling a guy (me) who does it for a living what is best, and how things work.

Good luck with your future ventures and hunting, I do wish you well!

[efremtags]

Once again your professionalism is showing.

I concede that african animals are generally tougher than equivalent sized species, but give me a break.

Fact, I visited 12 websites booking African safaris for plains gaime. All of them recommended rifles in the .270 - 300WM class for this type of hunt.
Fact, 6 most popular big game  calibers in the world based on ammo sales, in no particular order.: 308, 30-06, 270, 300WM, 7mmRM, 338WM
Fact, majority of African game species will fall under 1000lbs, most under 500lbs.


Please explain to me how what I stated in the context of the conversation is inaccurate to the point you turn tail  and fall back on your professional career and never really answer any of the topics discussed. You consistently change the subject when someone refutes your opinion.

You start by saying this topic is a waste of time unless there are some guidelines. So I through some relative data out there for comparison. You compare 45/70 to FMJ 308 as a response.

I think you totally miss the point and are unable to present any point what so ever in these forums. I am beginning to doubt your professional credentials. I visit trade shows every year visiting guides. I've chewed the fat for more hours that I care admit with these professionals and none of them speak or act as you do. I find most people to me much more mainstream in their views, and if there is a preference, they let you know. With you, your preferences are obvious, but I have yet to see any intelligent discussion on why other preferences are so wrong. Millions of hunters must be wrong in their equipment selection according to you, and all the people I have talked with in the business must be wrong too because they do not agree with your views.

If you have a point to make, then do so. We're all adults here, so holding your breath until you get what you want won't work here.

[JJHACK]

Nice try, carry on with your other experts and enjoy!

[rex6666]

I think if you go back and read my origanal post it was about the 45/70 vs 375HH on DG
The point i was making was it make no difference in most of Africa if the 45/70 is better,
the 375HH is the minimum, "if you have a 45/70 rifle marked 375HH on the barrel and
fires 375HH ammo then it is legal" makes no dif. no argument.

[elmer]

I want to address the comment about using the .375 on plains game. I just got back two days ago from a plains game hunt where I used a .375 in 300 gr on Impala at 50 yards to a 54" Kudu at 170 yards and the round performed wonderfully. I was really surprised to find that it was easier on my old shoulders than my 30-06. I guess I now have another caliber to add to my wish list.
 

[AtlLaw]

"if you have a 45/70 rifle marked 375HH on the barrel and fires 375HH ammo then it is legal" makes no dif. no argument.

   Sorry Rex, I've read this over and over and I'm still confused.  I always thought the restriction was a minimum of a .375caliber weapon.  Are you saying the restriction actually specifies the 375 H&H cartridge?

Either way I can't see how the 45/70 would be excluded.  It is over .375 caliber, and if the restriction was the actual 375 H&H cartride it seems there would have to be one or more qualifiers in there like - firing a projectile weighing at least 300 grains at a minimum velocity of 2,700 fps, or developing muzzle energy of at least 4,000 FPE, or sumpin' like that.

Probably a quicker way of asking the question is:  How does the restriction actually read in most cases where a minimum is stated?

[rex6666]

I am sorry, i did mean 375caliber

[phalanx]

Some loads for the 45/70 or 45/90  exceed 458 Win .Mag ,in the Ruger #1. When i lived in Alaska the 45/70 was the gun a lot of the guides carried in case they tangle with a Grizzly.
They also carry the 405 Marlin ,but these are rifles used when it is up close and Personal.

[458 Lott]

Neither would be my choice for serious DG hunting, they just don't have the oomph

[Mad Dog]

Not trying to stir the s**t, but just got back from a plains game safari, in the limpopo, RSA.  I used my .45-70 guide gun, and handloaded 300 gr. nosler partitions.  This isn't DG, but some of you might find it relevant.  5 of the animals were 1 shot kills, bang flop, DRT.  1 took 2 hits and only went 25 yds.  I hade issues with the zebra, because I didn't hit it right with the 1st. shot.  I also lost 1 gemsbok, becasue I hit it high in the shoulder, high enough, that I doubt any caliber would have gotten him.  The pics.





second gemsbok, 1 shot, folded on the spot.













these are the only bullets I have ever recovered, shooting any game with nosler partitions, out of my .45-70.  Again, not stirring the pot, just showing you what a .45-70 can do, if, like any rifle, your shot placement is correct.

Mad Dog

[BBF]

what was that saying? Oh yeah, 1 picture is worth a thousand words.

Nice work and that with a  carbine!

[rex6666]

OK!
i believe this is the point some are missing.
these African countries have heard of the been around for years 375H&H
the 45/70 has been around for 2-3 years also.
the officials that make the rules probably never heard of a 45/70
but the 375 has been coming to Africa for ever.
you can kill all the plains game you want with it, just like elk and moose here.
You can load it up to 5 times the zip of a 375, but the officials in those countries are the one s
you have to convince, NO ONE ELSE as far as i care you can hunt DG with a bean flip,
you still have to convince the officials that make the rules. Maybe some folks should go to Africa
and make an appointment to show them the errors of their ways.

[mk454]

the 4570 is not illegal everywhere in africa.  some places it is "illegal" in, no one cares, the amazing thing is that nearly all the "african" hunters out there will kick and scream that the 9.3 x 74/62 are perfectly adequate despite not meeting the "criteria" for energy, but there's factory level 45/70 rounds out there that meet the same exact ME but get scoffed at.  you'd think that some hunters, ph's, and some game officials would take note of the many very very adequate handguns that have taken every one of the big five.  in fact, taken everyone of the big 5 with ease and going through and breaking shoulder bones on elephants and buff and still passing through, but, evidently the secret that muzzle energy isn't the only factor in killing dangerous game.  the idea that a 45/70 isn't adequate and that a 375HH is marginal is retarded.

[Grumulkin]

What you see shortly after you plug your Cape Bullalo with your 45-70.

[BBF]

Not being the brightest candle in the assembly, is that buf dead or on top of you?

[Grumulkin]

It was very much alive but fortunately with barbed wire and electric fence between me and it.

[rex6666]

OH!
they have road hunters in Africa also.

[BBF]

If that 45-70 was spitting out those wimpy low power factory loads I can see that happening.

[mk454]

grumulkin, it's what you'll see from shooting a buff with anything that doesn't connect with the CNS, hit it with anything from the lowly .44 mag in the CNS and it's dead.  sad thing is that many refuse to acknowledge that a 45/70 with the right loads far outpenetrates many much larger calibers with many "acceptable" but very very antiquated loads.  it's the bullets, not the cartridge.

[Casull]

Some loads for the 45/70 or 45/90  exceed 458 Win .Mag ,in the Ruger #1.

Don't believe I've ever seen one of those.   

[WL44]

To me it's a pity that these threads tend to go a bit pear shaped and I sort of see why. JJ is certainly correct in saying that the parameters are generally too wide to avoid ruffling feathers (which I know a 45/70 is at least capable of on any feathered animal  ).

This topic was raised in the past and I responded there too. I've seen articles in African Outfitter magazine of big game (DG) taken with the 45-70 and several photographs. I don't have that issue, but if you are interested enough I suggest you order the back issue. I think the 45-70 was that issues featured "favoutirte calibers" choice.

Mad Dog - Nice pics.

Not to get into the comparison and a little off the topic; if you want to to do something a little different or more challenging than the ordinary, don't get discouraged and go for it. And yes I avoided saying that a 45-70 was more challenging for DG than a 375 H&H 

[jrfrmn]

Not trying to stir the s**t, but just got back from a plains game safari, in the limpopo, RSA.  I used my .45-70 guide gun, and handloaded 300 gr. nosler partitions.  This isn't DG, but some of you might find it relevant.  5 of the animals were 1 shot kills, bang flop, DRT.  1 took 2 hits and only went 25 yds.  I hade issues with the zebra, because I didn't hit it right with the 1st. shot.  I also lost 1 gemsbok, becasue I hit it high in the shoulder, high enough, that I doubt any caliber would have gotten him.  The pics.




I have a question for you. I cannot get an answer from anyone. It must be a secret. I would like to know what zebra steaks taste like. Is it anything like chicken?





second gemsbok, 1 shot, folded on the spot.













these are the only bullets I have ever recovered, shooting any game with nosler partitions, out of my .45-70.  Again, not stirring the pot, just showing you what a .45-70 can do, if, like any rifle, your shot placement is correct.

Mad Dog