45-70 VS 375HH

[DalesCarpentry]

Not trying to stir the s**t, but just got back from a plains game safari, in the limpopo, RSA.  I used my .45-70 guide gun, and handloaded 300 gr. nosler partitions.  This isn't DG, but some of you might find it relevant.  5 of the animals were 1 shot kills, bang flop, DRT.  1 took 2 hits and only went 25 yds.  I hade issues with the zebra, because I didn't hit it right with the 1st. shot.  I also lost 1 gemsbok, becasue I hit it high in the shoulder, high enough, that I doubt any caliber would have gotten him.  The pics.





second gemsbok, 1 shot, folded on the spot.













these are the only bullets I have ever recovered, shooting any game with nosler partitions, out of my .45-70.  Again, not stirring the pot, just showing you what a .45-70 can do, if, like any rifle, your shot placement is correct.

Mad Dog

Boy oh boy Mad Dog. What a Freaking hunt. That is really a once in a life time hunt there for sure. Great pictures and you can see you are happy in every one. I think the mounts will cost more than the trip though. LOL. Dale

[S.E.Ak]

I think many areas in Africa require 3,500fpe at 100yds for DG.Now if you had your barrel restamped 450/400 3" or somesuch thing it might pass muster.Of course I also believe DG is met to be taken at fifty yards or less,longer shots than that you are just shooting DG not hunting them,JMPO. The 375H&H 300gr shoots as flat as the 06 180gr and can help you better sort things out in a pinch when something happens upon you when say looking for Kudu.A fact is the .223 kills more stuff in Africa now than any other round and Bell did fine with the 318 on Tembo but he was not the norm.We have seen folks like Larry Kelly and J.D.Jones take the big five with pistols none of which come close to the power of the well loaded 45/70.Fred Bear took his elephant with a 100lb. bow and the bushman does the same with a 20 pounder.Best to just do as your outfitter ask and remember the gun you take will probably be the cheapest part of the hunt unless you take wally world sale ammo.

[JJHACK]

Bear used a 65lb recurve, not a 100lb recurve.

Bell deliberately let all the elephants run off and then looked for them days later when the rotting carcass allowed the ivory to slide out easy. The dead bulls were easy to find with his tracking staff by scent and sound, along with the sight of vultures. At no point was the shooting Bell did comparable to current day sprot hunting. Comparing a guy that recovered about 80% of what he shot for ivory and while poaching has no relationship to a sporthunter today that drops many thousands of dollars on a 21 day or shorter hunt and may have a single opportunity to pull the trigger.

The Bushman whom I've hunted with many times for lions with my clients had a very specialized system of hunting with a bow. They too had the luxury of time, patience, and an endless season. Not the limited time frame a recreational hunter would have. They also don't shoot monster Bulls, but the smaller younger easier to handle meat animals. The modern Handgun hunters almost all hunted DG on Private lands with captive game, escape was impossible on the fenced properties. If you have ever spoken to these guys they also had helecoptors on stand by for game recovery. In Africa helecoptors are very common to use for this. We have a 1/2 dozen guys with them we can call to recon the area for lost animals. We also use them for darting and relocation projects.

So comparing what may have been done as a stunt a few times, without knowing all the details,.... to what can be done from a practical and responsible standpoint are clearly much different.

[S.E.Ak]

I've read stories of how ivory hunters of past and poachers of today just shoot them in the knees then come back a finish them later if not all ready dead.Nothing but respect for the bushman from me as they are one with their land.In 93 a guide from Africa traded a hunt with a guide friend when I was still in Alaska and he brought his head bushman and good friend called Henry of all things with him. Within a day he had already discovered some plants that were good to eat and showed us a bee hive in town no one else had ever seen or even thought to look. Henry spoke OK English and when excited he would start clicking holding his hand over his mouth tyring to stop.

[fknipfer]

This topic has been discussed before and its like pouring sand in the ocean.  If I was facing a really big animal I think I want to get there with the mostest which means on all DG a .375 H&H or bigger and keep the elk rifles at home.

fknipfer

[RD2]

Mad Dog, thanks for the great photos and real life opinion..

[Screwbolts]

Take a look at the "Garrett Hammerhead"   do a search.    also search for an article by Sam Fadala on hunting Africa, the article title is " Smack  Down ".   as i understand it many PH's are carrying Guide Gund an randy Garrett's hammer head ammo.

My Vote goes for the 45/70 with a heavy Hard cast WFN from one of Veral Smiths  LBT molds, loaded to 1700-1800.  Done deal!

[WL44]

I've read all of this.

Legalities aside, I think it depends on what you are hunting.

I think a 45-70 might be great for following up leopard where frontal area and slick handling would be at a premium to ultimate penetration. Maybe lion too. I've never hunter either.

I'd be very unhappy facing elephant (would rather have a 375), would probably chose my 375 for buffalo too, but would prefer something bigger for both.

I'm not saying it aint so, but I've never seen a PH carrying a levergun and have never heard of one doing so for DG. Not that I've been on many DG hunts, but not on those I have and I've chatted with mnay guys about guns and calibers - as we all like to do and are doing here.

I agree it may get close to a 458 Win Mag with an appropriately shaped monolithic 450gr or so, but this is certainly an extreme case of specific loads in a specific rifle and not simply a generic 45-70 vs 375 situation.

I've posted in a positive light on this before - there's an African Outfitter article some years back and I've seen pics of guys with Buffalo -  so I'm not 45-70 bashing, but for DG I view it more as creating a challenge for yourself (like handgun hunting) and do not view the 45-70 as being on a par with the .450's generally accepted for DG. That said there are cases where they may be close...

1700-1800 fps is not where I'd want my DG running.

[Mad Dog]

My thoughts if I was to take a .45-70 back to Africa for dangerous game[cape buffalo].  I would take a standard 1895, with a 22" barrel[to get the velocity needed].  I'd modify it, with a mag tube extension to get the maximum number of rounds I could get in the gun.  I'd put a quick detach leupold 1.75 x 6 power scope on board.  The load I would use is the following.

Belt Mtn. punch bullet 400 gr.[solid], loaded to approx 2000 fps.

For a soft, I'd use a Barnes original, 400 gr., or if nosler had one, a 400 gr. nosler partition, loaded to the same 2000 fps.  Sight the gun in with both, and be able to use the softs on plains game.  If the ph insisted, hit the buff with a soft, followed by6/7 of the punch bullet solids.  Use the softs on whatever else I was hunting.  Next trip[if ever], here is my wish list.

Cape buff
bush pig
eland
bushbuck
waterbuck
another big wart hog.

I probably wouldn't buy a "big gun"[you decide the cal.], because I know if I ever get back, it would be the last trip.  My .45-70 would be useful to me, at home.  JMHO.

Mad Dog

[WL44]

I see your point on not buying a once off rifle Mad Dog.

That said, for buffalo you need very "good" softs.

I'm not saying that this was what you meant, but it's one way of reading it, so here goes.... If you feel the need to chase up your first shot with 6 or 7 solids, you didn't have confidence in your rifle in the first place. Whilst I agree with the "add lead till dead" principle for dangeous game (or of course add monmetal), I don't think you can assume that conditions and brush etc. will necessarily enable you to get in more than a first good shot and then you may need to follow up (track) before getting a chance to shoot the quarry again.

Whilst a Marlin levergun may be quicker than a bolt gun, it may still not be quick enough for immediately following the first shot if conditions don't permit. I'd rather take a good fisrt shot, with a good bullet in a good caliber at a stationery animal than try to put a bunch more in the vitals as it flees as I felt that the first one wouldn't do the job required.

Now being able to say that it's nice to have the back up rounds in the gun is another matter all together.

Nice wish list. Don't overlook the small species. Cost effective and don't take up much space in the trophy room... some are really special.

Happy hunting!

[Mad Dog]

WL44,  I see your point, but holding that many rounds doesn't mean I will need them all, but they are there, "in case".  SS hold 1 round, dbls hold 2 rounds, most bolts hold 3-5 rounds.  If I have a gun that holds 6-8 rounds, so much the better.  As far as softs, many phs want you to hit a buff with a soft first, followed up by solids[for the any angle followup shots].  The Punch bullet is a flat nosed solid, and has been used successfully, in africa to take elephant.  As in every discussion, on guns for DG, its all about initial shot placement, and the ability to do so.

Mad Dog

[Swampman]

I read yesterday that even the hottest .45-70 load isn't powerful enough to meet the legal requirements on some game.  That's why the .475 Turnbull was created.  As much as I love the .45-70, the .375H&H would be my choice.

[Qaz]

 I maybe wrong, but my take on this is the 375H&H minimum, is to mean 375H&H class balistics and above are to be used on DG.

Also, if everyone that has not hunted DG in Africa would please get out of this conversation and let those that have hash this out, then we may be able to end this never ending conversation once and for all!!!

Thank you

[Swampman]

Your take is incorrect.

[mcwoodduck]

I own 3 45-70 rifles, all are storng enough to take the bottom end of the 458 Win Mag loaded 45-70 ammo.
And while all are good rifle and one is one of the Siamese 98 actions, the other is a Ruger No.3 and a post 1973 Marlin 1895 rifle if something were rampaging the neighborhood that excaped from the San Francisco Zoo, 7 miles away from the house, that fits in the big 6, a Tiger, or a Brown bear My first grab would be for my Bolt action Sako AIII in 375 H&H.

[bill439]

Why not just neck down the 45-70 to .375 cal. and be done with all this???

[mcwoodduck]

bill439,
I know that there is a .416 version of the 45-70.  But it does not give great advantages over the .458 version.
But i think you would have an action length problem with necking it down to 375 as a 300 grain bullet is a 300 grain bullet the .375 is about an inch and a half long and he 458 is a little under an inch.  That extra 1/2 inch or more is gonna stick out a lot farther than most 45-70 actions that can handle the Magnum loads.  So I don't think you are going to gain too much by doing that.  A standard 300 grain speed for a 45-70 is 1800 FPS and for 375 H&H it is 2600FPS
If you look at a taylor knock out factor, that is weighted heavily on bullet diameter you end up with numbers of.
375  300 grain =41.78
45-70 300 grain = 36.90
45-70 350 grain Mag load = 45.8 Not all 45-70 actions can handle this load and my damage the gun and the shooter.
30-06 180grain for comparison = 21.38

[calling4life]

I think this would be relevant when talking about the potential of the 4570.  Garrett's site has even more info on how well this cartridge does in Africa, on the biggest of game.  New here, and I wont pretend to be an expert on hunting in Africa, but do believe this to be relevant to the 4570 in Africa debate.
"GARRETT'S 45-70  HAMMERHEAD AMMO
540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS
THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN MARLIN RIFLES WITH BALLARD BARRELS.
ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .368; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -6.5" @ 150-YDS
Although blunt, our SuperHardCast Hammerhead bullets provide a very useable 200-yard trajectory in the case of our 420-grainer, and 150-yards with our 540-grainer. Also, to the full extent of their range, they are both capable of shooting lengthwise through the heaviest game, while providing rapid incapacitation. Interestingly, both our 45-70 loads generate as big a Taylor Knockout Value at 130-yards as does the 375 Holland & Holland with 300-grain bullets measured at the muzzle.
Does the 540-grain Hammerhead Ammo actually out-penetrate the 458 Winchester Magnum and 500 Nitro Express when using solids? Yes, as was demonstrated for all to see at a recent John Linebaugh seminar. The penetration results, which parallel ours, demonstrated that the 458 Winchester Magnum produces 47-inches of penetration in wet newspaper with 500-grain roundnose solids and that the 500 Nitro Express produces 48-inches of penetration in wet newspaper with 570-grain roundnose solids. By comparison, our 540-grainer with its super blunt front end produces an impressive 55-inches of penetration in the same material. Nearly 20% deeper penetration than the 458 or 500 Nitro Express with roundnose solids! "

[bill439]

Mcwoodduck, Thanks for your information, I was just having fun, I know the 45-70 necked down can't be as powerful as is.  So howbout necking up to say shooting .600nitro bullets?  there I go again, Would extraction be a problem?  I am reading the same stuff thats been said at least 100 times.  Here's the deal-
animal shot with .45 cal. bullet @ 1876 fps. @ x yards @x conditions. Bullet completly pentrates animal, animal is dead.  Animal can't determine if it was shot with a. 45-70  b. 45-90  c.  .458 win.  d.  460 weatherby  e. 450 nitro  f.  .450 bpe   g.  anything else .45cal.
Ie. same with anything .375cal.  " It's the bullet that kills, not the cartridge "  Bill439

[JJHACK]

that is an unrealistic view that the bullet kills not the cartridge. Certainly you must understand that the power to drive a bullet has every bit as much importance as the projectile. A .22 hornet can shoot the same bullet as a 220 swift but they certainly have a difference in lethal effect even using the same bullet

Everytime you increase velocity with the same projectile you increase the lethal effect on the game so long as the bullet can handle the impact stress. This is not opinion, it's the way force is created on tissue. Over many years and many thousands of animals harvested the velocities determined for .458 daimeter became well accepted based on the high resolution of animals harvested. People who do this for a living such as mike Lagrange who has killed more elephants then anyone alive today, in excess of 6000, and this does not include the many other DG species. The 2050fps minimum is the line in the sand for performance. It's not considered great performance, it's considered minimum performance. Guns shooting larger diameter or higher velocity were developed because some experienced folks felt the .458 diameter was still too small and did not have the effective crumple power desired. Guns like the 470, 500 Jeffery, 600 and 700 nitro etc. were used with great effect.

With this level of experience and the amount of first hand knowledge from guys who do this for a living and worked to get the tools they needed to reamin alive and well, I still find it stunning that anyone would debate that something with much less performance "should work just fine" I'm not sure that many of the people who debate these things have been staring at an Elephant, hippo, rhino, buffalo, with a possible threat to your personal well being and would then care to debate this further. I suppose this is where the term "Arm Chair"  came from where many of these conversations go.

Interesting none the less, so please carry on. I do find amusement with these posts.

[bill439]

uh, impact vel. of 22hornet bullet 45grs @2200fps is the same as 220 swift @ 45grs and 2200fps.  No?  bill439

[JJHACK]

Why do I bother?

[mcwoodduck]

Bill,
I have been making that same arguement for years about 30-30, 308, 300 What ever, and 30-06.  The difference in speed between the rounds loaded with the same bullet only increases the maximum kill range of the round and the increased speed gives better ability to shoot over longer distances.
And yes if you shoot something the size of a cow the cow will not know what killed it.  But when you get into the shooting a cow that is running at you, you need speed and heavy bullets to push the bullet through heavy bone and muscle.  In the case of bigger animals like an Elephant the spongy bone in the head will suck up the energy of the bullet and the typical short fat 45-70 bullets will not work.  And I guess the real question would be not if 45-70 would be a Big 6 rifle but if the 450 Marlin is one.  The 45-70 and the 450 Marlin are loaded to the same levels.  while everyone talks about how 45-70 can hit the bottom end of 458 Win Mag it is still the bottom end and not the pachaderm or bovine stopping rounds that the PH's carry for charge stopping.  From everything I have read about the PH's 458 Win mag is where they start for game stoppers and go up from there depending on the game hunted in the area.  But those are stopping rather than hunting.

[moxgrove]

Why would a guy scrimp on a rifle? I mean you are paying good money to go to Africa maybe for a 1 shot in a lifetime deal. Why not do what you can to make it a success?. If the guy who does it all the time makes a recommendation, why not listen. A guy can argue all day long that a well placed 22lr bullet will kill a deer, But who is going to argue that you should get rid of your center fire rifle in lieu of one? Heck kif i get the chance to go to Africa, it will be with a 416 rigby= I probably wouldn't use it any where else, but what the heck?

[fknipfer]

I guess the same reason that some guys hunt with rifles and some guys hunt with bows.  Who knows???

fknipfer

[Casull]

uh, impact vel. of 22hornet bullet 45grs @2200fps is the same as 220 swift @ 45grs and 2200fps.  No?  bill439

uh, impact vel. of 22hornet bullet 45grs @2200fps is not the same as 220 swift @ 45grs and 3200fps.

Neither is energy level or lethality the same.

I have been making that same arguement for years about 30-30, 308, 300 What ever, and 30-06.

See above.  Energy level definitely makes a difference.  Or do you think a deer shot with a .30 cal bullet at 500 fps wouldn't know the difference?

[mcwoodduck]

If all three of the .30 cal bullets from a 30-30, 30-06 and 300 (Win, WSM, H&H, Ultra, Weatherby) what ever are traveling at 500FPS then no you will see no difference in proformance.
the difference is how far away from the gun will be the bullet when it slows to 500 FPS.
Energy is based on velocity squared.  So small adds in speed make big jumps in energy.
So a 300 ultra super dooper mag that leaves the barrel at 5000 FPS will hit the same as a 30-30 when both slow to 500 FPS using the same weight bullet.

[Casull]

If all three of the .30 cal bullets from a 30-30, 30-06 and 300 (Win, WSM, H&H, Ultra, Weatherby) what ever are traveling at 500FPS then no you will see no difference in proformance.
the difference is how far away from the gun will be the bullet when it slows to 500 FPS.
Energy is based on velocity squared.  So small adds in speed make big jumps in energy.
So a 300 ultra super dooper mag that leaves the barrel at 5000 FPS will hit the same as a 30-30 when both slow to 500 FPS using the same weight bullet.

No kidding.  Nobody is saying that the same bullet at the same speed cares what cartridge it comes out of.  But, we are not comparing shooting an animal at 100 yards with a 30-30 to shooting it at 600 yards with a .300 mag, but rather shooting it with either at 100 yards.  Makes a big difference if that .30 caliber bullet is traveling at 30-30 velocities (sub 2000 fps) or .300 mag velocities (3000 fps).

[don heath]

Gentlemen. A .45-70 in any form of load is not legal for dangerous game in any country that I have hunted in Africa with the exception of Mozambique.( They take the ME as published by Winchester/rem for regulations) I have guided clients against ele and buff who have used a .45-70. I have also guided folk who have used muzzle loaders and a kid who took an ele with a 30-06 (couldn't shoot well with anything bigger).

Many like a fast handling lever action for cats - I do, but I want an impact velocity above 2300fps a .348 is a great leopard rifle. The .375 or .416 wildcats on the case would be great for lion.

I have never seen a working PH in any area where you have ele or buff carry a lever gun.  You can pick the shots for a client to make up for the deficiencies in the rifle/ammo combination he is using. As a PH you cannot choose the angles or conditions under which you will fire. Considering many (myself included) consider the .458 Win in it's standard loadings (500grn @2050fps) inadequate for self defence against ele, and there have been several well documented 'failure to penetrate far enough' from federal .470 NE ammo in the last couple of years - what makes you think you can turn a .45-70 into a .458 Lott?

Penetration is the key to elephant- (buff are different, you probably could load a .45-70 into an all round buff rifle). Bell killed his elephant with a 7mm- why. it penetrated and killed instantly! It out penetrates the .375 in tests!

[WL44]

I would take serious notice of the comments of the last gentleman. In fact, now that he has spoken (no disrespect intended to those of you who are experienced here), I'm guessing that the rest of us need comment no more!